Getting into St. Albans
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Anonymous
These same fickle parents at these schools banter on these boards that over half of the their kids in private school are receiving out of school tutoring and brag but, this is not cheating ... to earn higher marks, grades, SAT scores to throw into the admission decision mix for colleges (not mention the tutoring and consultations to get into the school in the first place). Twisted irony. |
Anonymous
No connections and my DS at STA is a lousy basketball player. Then and now. |
Anonymous
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[quote=Anonymous]Out of deference to the OP, here's a post.
First, let me begin by saying that I have no strong beliefs about single gender education, and I’ve not observed it to really have a significant overall net benefit or detriment to students’ academic development. If you take a 99th percentile kid (of which there are a very great many at STA) and take him as a graduate of STA, GDS, Sidwell, Maret, Landon, Potomac, etc., you can make a pretty safe bet that the kid is going to have done amazing things academically. The academic success of these schools has a lot more to do with their admissions process than it has to do with anything that happens inside the walls of the classroom. Second, I will say that an all boys school could potentially be a wonderful place for boys. I don’t know so much about upper schools in the area, so I’ll limit my ramblings to the middle grades (4 through 8) that constitute STA’s Lower School. If I were running an all boys school, which I would be happy to do one day, I would start by making sure the boys came to school every day in old, easily washable clothes. Why? Because I think a hugely important part of a boy’s education should be experiential learning. In the past decades, we’ve seen how much better girls fare in American schools, most of which are quite traditional. So why is there this idea that boys benefit from very traditional schools? Nothing in the literature suggests that. Anyway, back to the clothes: So, boys on average being creatures who learn by doing, they would be outside acting out the scenes they read in adventure and fantasy stories, doing science in the mud or with gobs of messy chemicals, learning about probability and statistics by shooting baskets, and writing about the mad dash through the woods they just had. The boys would be up and moving all the time, and the classroom would certainly not be primarily limited to a stuffy rectangular prism. I would also make sure the boys spent a lot of time working in partners and teams, and they would consistently be challenged with building things or otherwise physically manipulating things in a way that required reading and writing skills and utilized mathematical ones. Cooperation and verbal communication skills would be woven through everything possible. Competition would be present, but deemphasized. (Boys are already often naturally competitive. They don’t need to be made more so. What they need is to develop better cooperative skills.) The emphasis would be on learning how to compete in a responsible, good-natured way. Unstructured play opportunities would be just as important and present as structured sports ones. Anyway, I say all this on the one hand just to be wistful. But I also say it to illustrate that St. Albans (and Landon and Mater Dei and The Avalon School) are nothing at all like my pipe dream. If anything, they’re almost polar opposites. All of these schools are very traditional, fairly to very structured, and highly competitive. As for St. Albans, here are some specific observations about its academic program: 1) Most of the curriculum is test based. Vocabulary tests, Spanish tests, spelling tests, math unit tests, social studies chapter tests, geography quizzes, reading quizzes, etc. are a fairly omnipresent part of the St. Albans experience starting in fourth grade. The measure of one’s learning is most definitely taken in terms of grades. 2) Some partner work is occasionally present for academic projects, but actual cooperative learning as defined by educational research (starting with Johnson and Johnson decades ago) is rarely (if ever) used. This has not always been the case. For example, Peter Barrett (now head of St. Patrick's) had implemented some cooperative learning at STA prior to his departure from there. 3) Students compete for academic awards based on their grades. 4) Students in a class all complete the same assignments, do the same readings, etc. until seventh grade when an honors program is implemented. Students are either invited or not invited into the honors program. 5) The curriculum is extremely teacher directed. Students do not play a part in deciding what novels they read, what topics they study, what math concepts they explore more in depth, etc. (That's not to say students never get to make any choices at all, though. For example, they might be asked to do a report on a current event.) 6) Science is done in the laboratory. Most science activities are labs with pre-set procedures that require the students to write up a formal lab report at the end of it. (Lab reports are homework.) 7) Homework consistently takes many students in fourth and fifth grade 90 to 120 minutes and more by time they reach sixth (and then even more in seventh and eighth). Some students use a study period they receive at the end of the day wisely, and others don’t (which can mean more or less homework). 8) Typical homework assignments the first couple of years tend to be things like completing a math worksheet of 30 long division problems, doing a crossword puzzle with 20 clues, or reading a chapter and answering questions about it. As the students progress, homework really runs the gamut. 9) A large amount of the work production students do is done at home. 10) Math is taught in what one would typically call a highly traditional, rote manner (with the occasional exception of a seventh grade math teacher). 11) The reading curriculum in grades 4 through 6 consists of reading about four or so novels a year. The first two years typically involve quizzes or questions about the readings. By sixth grade it’s not uncommon to do some written responses/note-taking with the reading. Teacher-directed discussions sometimes occur. 12) The writing curriculum consists primarily of assigning the students writing prompts. Students begin to learn about how to incorporate literary devices or styles into their writing typically in seventh grade. 13) What educational literature refers to as “project-based learning” is rare. Students sometimes do the occasional research paper or more open-ended project at school, but any elaborate projects are likely to be homework. 14) The students begin writing term papers, complete with APA or MLA (or the like) citation in sixth grade. I think all the guys become intimately familiar with the Son of Citation Machine website! 15) Specific assignments in grades four through six often vary dramatically with different classroom teachers. In my opinion, within the context of the academic program described above (in such a scattershot manner, sorry), there is not a significant academic benefit to be gained from an all boys environment. I’m not going to get into any observations of the social aspect of St. Albans at this time. Response/Question: This is an old post, but if you see my email would you be willing to communicate off-line about the social culture over at St. Albans? I gather you are either a parent who knows a lot about education or an educator and that you care a great deal. I hope to have my DC benefit from your insights. [/quote] |
Anonymous
| Go visit the school and talk to parents and have your kid shadow for a visit, but otherwise be wary of believing what a windbag on DCUM says about St. Albans. Yeah they wear coats and ties--they dash around outside anyway and tumble around llike puppies at recess, regardless of the ratty blazer. Your "stuffy rectangular prism" is my kid's "cool it looks like Hogwarts" building. They are outside a lot. They do compete and most of them really like it! They also cooperate in team and academic settings. It's not perfect--as everywhere, some teachers are probably better than others or maybe gel more with one or another type learner--but it's a very friendly, active environment and the all-boys dynamic seems to work very well. Lots of good co-ed options in this area if that's the way you want to go, though, so don't stress out if you don't like it or feel it's right for your little guy. |
Anonymous
| I'm a private school veteran. My best advice is save your money and go public. |
Anonymous
| And that old post is most assuredly from Mr. Toth -- currently wanted by the FBI as the pedophile teacher from Beauvoir. He trolled these boards frequently and probably still does. He thinks he knows about St. Albans though many of his points are not exactly true and ALL from the outside view of a wanna-be poser who wishes he could have worked there. He has never taught there, and thankfully never will. |
Anonymous
| No kid at STA, but I would find a point-by-point commentary/rebuttal A LOT more useful than someone saying, oh, that critique must have been written by a pedophile! |
Anonymous
| Him/she has no point by point response hence her catatonic reference to a Mr. Toth -- whoever that chap is? |
Anonymous
I am not 12:17, but I do remember a DCUM controversy about Toth sock-pupating on this board (eg recommending himself as a tutor, etc). I don't know if the critique of St. Albans works in the right time period to be a potential Toth post, and I guess the odds are against it (although I think he did use to talk about St. Albans a lot in his posts, I think). I'm way too lazy to try a point-by-point response, so I will just cite 23:59 again--I think you have to visit, talk to families, etc, to see if you like the all-boys education as practiced at the STA Lower School. My impression is that it is a pretty warm, encouraging atmosphere notwiithstanding certain emblems of formality like the dress code, but different families will doubtless have very different takes on it. |
Anonymous
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I can guarantee that post was originally written by Toth. Few would have the time or pretend to ahve the knowledge of the curriculum like him. The overwhelming tone is negative about STA, which he was in the exact same ways. Plus, I know his writing style and have IN WRITING some of the exact same quotes from him.
So here is my refutation, though I am doing this quickly. Wouldbe happy to discuss STA offline with anyone actually truly interested if they are looking there. As for St. Albans, here are some specific observations about its academic program: 1) Most of the curriculum is test based. Vocabulary tests, Spanish tests, spelling tests, math unit tests, social studies chapter tests, geography quizzes, reading quizzes, etc. are a fairly omnipresent part of the St. Albans experience starting in fourth grade. The measure of one’s learning is most definitely taken in terms of grades. **Not exactly true, but there are tests. Guess what. Most schools have tests. Most colleges have exams. Life is filled with tests, and the key -- for the lower school -- is learning HOW to study and prepare yourself. Tests are not 100% of the grades -- for any class. In most classes, lower school boys can do corrections. If you made a poor grade on a math test, you can turn in your corrections as it is more important that you understand what you did wrong, or understand what you did not understand. But there are tests and I believe every middle school in our area has some kinds of tests. Another benefit of tests is that teachers can get a sense of what knowledge the class (or a specific kid) has retained. Mommies and tutors cannot takes tests for little Johnny. 2) Some partner work is occasionally present for academic projects, but actual cooperative learning as defined by educational research (starting with Johnson and Johnson decades ago) is rarely (if ever) used. This has not always been the case. For example, Peter Barrett (now head of St. Patrick's) had implemented some cooperative learning at STA prior to his departure from there. **VINTAGE Toth. Cooperative learning is used this is total bs. Boys are paired up in almost every science lab, sometimes even in 3 kids. Science Fair can be a team. Most of the English projects are with partners. This is simply untrue, and any teacher who actually teaches at STA lower school can give numerous examples of cooperative learning. 3) Students compete for academic awards based on their grades. ** True. There are academic (and citizenship too) awards on Prize Day. there are numerous threads on DCUM about Prize Day but yes there are awards given to those boys (usually 3 or so out of a class and around 9 or so in the grade) that have the highest grades. There are other awards too on prize day. But to be clear, not everyone cares so much. 4) Students in a class all complete the same assignments, do the same readings, etc. until seventh grade when an honors program is implemented. Students are either invited or not invited into the honors program. **NOT True. First of all, there is no honors program -- there is an honors math track. Another vintage Toth-ism. Yes students based on math grades, rec from teacher, ERBs, SSATs if a new student, etc are invited to aprticipate in honors math which has the same teacher and the same textbook but goes deeper and faster. Boys who are in honors in 7th are not always there for 8th and some boys move in from 7th as well. It is fluid. Most of the other work is similar -- the classes are so small that differentiation (ie literature) would be a challenge. A good student always does more and can do things like math counts (math team is open to all, and over 50 boys from 6/7/8 participated in math meets last year!), spelling bee, geography bee, write for the Current, etc. 5) The curriculum is extremely teacher directed. Students do not play a part in deciding what novels they read, what topics they study, what math concepts they explore more in depth, etc. (That's not to say students never get to make any choices at all, though. For example, they might be asked to do a report on a current event.) ****And the problem with this is? Yes teachers have lesson plans. It does not mean they do not let the class lead them (ie if something is not well understood or iif they are excited by the civil war trial held in history it might go on a bit longer than originally planned, etc). teachers are well qualified and often have advanced degrees in their subject area, I have no problem with them deciding on what to teach for the most part. 6) Science is done in the laboratory. Most science activities are labs with pre-set procedures that require the students to write up a formal lab report at the end of it. (Lab reports are homework.) ****Science in 4/5/6 is fantastic. It is hands on, there is not even a text book for 4/5 grades. The boys learn how to write up their findings though, which is a useful life skill. It makes science real. Most boys LOVE this class. 7) Homework consistently takes many students in fourth and fifth grade 90 to 120 minutes and more by time they reach sixth (and then even more in seventh and eighth). Some students use a study period they receive at the end of the day wisely, and others don’t (which can mean more or less homework). *****This is about right. But they are not supposed to have more than 2 hours. The key is for the boys to elarn how to be organized and the schoo, offers an after school program called STArtsmart which is like a supervised study hall and boys can get help. Spanish teachers hold a weekly help session too. There is lots of time during the day to get some of the work done. But hw is not easy/short as it is a rigorous school. 8) Typical homework assignments the first couple of years tend to be things like completing a math worksheet of 30 long division problems, doing a crossword puzzle with 20 clues, or reading a chapter and answering questions about it. As the students progress, homework really runs the gamut. ***Spoken like Toth the Tutor. Clueless. He loves to poke fun at worksheets yet when he was a 3rd grade teacher he taught NOTHING. And used worksheets too. There is math homework. No different from anywhere else. math is learned by practicing the concepts learned in class. English requires reading. There are usually projects (posters, home movies, reading scenes aloud, writing book reviews, etc). Spanish means practice and there is a home cd as well as GASP worksheets. Science has labs, not every day but 1 or 2 a week. History/geography has reading, projects and the like. Vocab has a book to work through (yep worksheets I guess). the hw assignments are usually in line with the subject and the grade. 9) A large amount of the work production students do is done at home. ***IDK about this. Yes most of the hw is done at home. But they also do work at school and often have whole projects done only there (to avoid parental involvement) such as a 4th grade country assignment where boys pick a place and reasearch their country culminating in a power point presentation and a fun ethnic food day at the school (ie if you did Japan you might make teriyaki or sushi). 10) Math is taught in what one would typically call a highly traditional, rote manner (with the occasional exception of a seventh grade math teacher). ****This teacher Toth liked is now gone (pursuing a PhD). Most math is taught this way, but this is Toth projecting. He has not ever sat in math classes and only knows from the boys he tutored. 11) The reading curriculum in grades 4 through 6 consists of reading about four or so novels a year. The first two years typically involve quizzes or questions about the readings. By sixth grade it’s not uncommon to do some written responses/note-taking with the reading. Teacher-directed discussions sometimes occur. *****Yes and no. The books are geared towards reading levels, and different teachers teach in different ways. We did not have a whole lot of reading quizzes in 4th but more projects. The boys usually enjoy these classes. Not sure what the issue is here, but literature is well done at STA and boys learn to appreciate reading and become critical thinkers. 12) The writing curriculum consists primarily of assigning the students writing prompts. Students begin to learn about how to incorporate literary devices or styles into their writing typically in seventh grade. ****IDK about this. Writing is huge depending on the teacher though. Mine has many many journals from either 5th or 6th grade where he wrote like crazy. It is also holistic as writing is taught through writing the science labs as well. Boys learn to have a conclusion in their work (important in real life). 13) What educational literature refers to as “project-based learning” is rare. Students sometimes do the occasional research paper or more open-ended project at school, but any elaborate projects are likely to be homework. ****Disagree. There are many many projects done at school. Some examples: spanish play acted at school in class, civil war trial in 7th grade history, lots and lots of literature projects at school, research and library learning as well as in the computer lab (such as the country project in 4th grade). 14) The students begin writing term papers, complete with APA or MLA (or the like) citation in sixth grade. I think all the guys become intimately familiar with the Son of Citation Machine website! ***Yes, the boys learn to cite properly this is taught through the great library program. In 6th grade each boys has to write a research paper about an animal (of his choosing). It is a neat project and done both at school and at home. 15) Specific assignments in grades four through six often vary dramatically with different classroom teachers. ****Yes, like any school the teaching is only as good as the teachers, and they are a pretty solid bunch at STA. The admin does not micro manage the classroom environment and allows its teachers to teach and use their own styles and methods. I like that aspect. I like that teachers have freedom to do what works for them. Poetry cafe on Fridays in one of the 3 classes is not replicated by the other 2. Doesn't mean the boys are not exposed to poetry, but this one teacher has every boy bring a poem to share and they have hot cocoa and treats in the winter for example. The boys look forward to it. The other classes have their own traditions. ************ OK I am exhausted but someone had to refute Toth. He has one perspective which is now 3 years old and dated and not from having a son there or ever teaching there. As mentioned, he was on the outside looking in. I am not going to say all the horrible things he did but just say that he is NOT AT ALL qualified to have any opinions about the place but acted like a maniuplative know-it-all about the Cathedral schools. |
Anonymous
| Thank you, that was much more helpful. I do think you could leave out the allusions to Eric Toth - if the critique is valid, I don't care who made it, and if the critique is not valid, I...don't care who made it. |
Anonymous
| I actually do care. My understanding was that aside from being a pedophile, Eric Toth portrayed himself to have a lot of insider knowledge he never had. If he posted a bunch of things about StA that he never really had any knowledge of (or only very limited knowledge) but went to great lengths to seem like his bias against the school was based on facts accumulated as an insider, I want to know that, and I want to deliberately dismiss the post from my knowledge base about the school. |
Anonymous
| NP. Toth told me that he's a STA alum the year that my DS applied to St Albans from Beauvoir. He made numerous negative comments about the school which I considered strange given that he was a Beauvoir teacher. |
Anonymous
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Thank you PP as that sums up Toth to a tee. he often claimed knowledge about the DC school scene -- about St Patricks, about Nysmith, GDS, Sidwell, Maret and especially NCA and STA. Yet he was only in the DC area for 3 years and all at Beauvoir. He had no kids of his own and his knowledge was basically gleamed off these boards and who else knows where as he was a loner and not close to very many faculty at Beauvoir. Moreover, he has a specific writing style where he refers to educational studies and often puts things in quotes which never happened. But when a person reads something in quotes that is attributed to me, one jumps to a conclusion that I actually said it. One can easily jump to a conclusion about that post as he writes specifically as he knows STA inside and out and he most certainly did/does not.
Statements such as: actual cooperative learning as defined by educational research (starting with Johnson and Johnson decades ago) is rarely (if ever) used. Since he quotes a study and then refers to a much beloved and well regarded head of school (Peter Barrett), a casual reader might believe this therefore to be true. it seems as if the writer knows about cooperative learning. The writer claims it is rarely if ever used. HOW DOES THE WRITER KNOW THAT? Do they ever say they had a child there? They visited? They taught there? Their family member went there? No, there is no basis for this writer to make any of these observations. That's because the guy writing the post is a sick, manipulative bastard. Can I say that on DCUM? Well, I have children at the Cathedral schools and can say please do not listen to this pedophile's post. It is not only dated and old, it is biased and from a very warped mind. I can prove that this post was from him and I hope that all gentle, readers forgive me for my cussing above and like the PP dismiss his biased observations completely. If anyone has serious questions about the school, ask away. And if any chance Eric you are reading this -- they will find you eventually and you will have to face the music. I hope you spend every minute looking over your shoulder and not knowing when that day will come, because it will come. You are not smarter than everyone else, despite your belief. |
Anonymous
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[quote=Anonymous]Honestly, these are poor indicators of quality of education. The selection bias (literally) is huge, and the same is true for TJ. You admit a smarter class, you get better scores. Show me the school without a strong admission criteria and which draws from an average population demographically and achieves these results and I am impressed. [/quote]
Response: My Public HS ( in another state)had 4 NM Finalists my senior year,16 NMSF , 20% of class went on to Ivy League and many as sophomores because they AP'd out of their freshman year.It was not a magnet school.What I feel is informative about this and the reason I share it here is that what made the school was the intellectual drive of the kids that was intrinsic to them and it started with the families that they came from .Many of the parents of these kids were professors of science themselves at the local universities, members of our city's symphony( and I don't mean board members),writers,doctors, etc...What is different between the culture evident on this forum and what I remember from HS is that these accolades weren't really talked about by the kids or their parents. They were just announced once in the newspaper and perhaps at graduation by an asterix next to the kids name, but not read out loud.My point is these kids were intrinsically motivated as were their parents who were scientists and intellectuals themselves. What sticks with me all these years later are the memories of the way many students in even the non-honors classes would passionately debate the teacher in class .To me that is more of an indicator of intellectual rigor and vitality, than GPA or SAT scores especially if your parents hire a tutor for you. Just my two cents. |