student admissions and TJ lawsuit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

[Anonymous]

If the test that was supposed to be unpreppable is preppable, that's a good argument for moving on. The system was supposed to be one that you couldn't prepare for, so any. successful preparation service is evidence that the system was broken

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the test that was supposed to be unpreppable is preppable, that's a good argument for moving on. The system was supposed to be one that you couldn't prepare for, so any. successful preparation service is evidence that the system was broken

Every test is preppable, some are a lot harder than others. It's relatively straightforward to make the TJ test less preppable, simply invest a bit more time in making the problems more difficult. Also, removing the test rather than having it coexist as another data point is just plain lazy.

[Anonymous]

As an example, if they had made the test similar to the AMC 10, there is no way Curie prepping would have helped very much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the test that was supposed to be unpreppable is preppable, that's a good argument for moving on. The system was supposed to be one that you couldn't prepare for, so any. successful preparation service is evidence that the system was broken

Every test is preppable, some are a lot harder than others. It's relatively straightforward to make the TJ test less preppable, simply invest a bit more time in making the problems more difficult. Also, removing the test rather than having it coexist as another data point is just plain lazy.

maybe, but it gave them the excuse to get rid of it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

All of your points are incorrect.

1) Preparing for an exam designed to test raw problem-solving ability =/= preparing for TJ.

2) The numbers are what they are - they posted the first and last names of all of the relevant students in their press release before retracting them following blowback. We know that the lists contain plenty of names of actual TJ students, though I don't know if anyone's bothered to vet each one.

3) No one is asserting that the whole test was leaked - what they are asserting is that Curie students violated their pledge not to discuss the secured exam and brought the questions back to Curie staff, who then built a question bank off of similar question types. It's also possible -indeed likely - that the Quant-Q reused some questions on future exams, like pretty much every standardized exam company does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the test that was supposed to be unpreppable is preppable, that's a good argument for moving on. The system was supposed to be one that you couldn't prepare for, so any. successful preparation service is evidence that the system was broken

Every test is preppable, some are a lot harder than others. It's relatively straightforward to make the TJ test less preppable, simply invest a bit more time in making the problems more difficult. Also, removing the test rather than having it coexist as another data point is just plain lazy.

FCPS and the TJ Admissions Office does not create and has never created any aspect of the initial TJ exam. They leave that process to professionals and to tried-and-true exams like the SHSAT, ACT Aspire, and Quant-Q.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

All of your points are incorrect.

1) Preparing for an exam designed to test raw problem-solving ability =/= preparing for TJ.

2) The numbers are what they are - they posted the first and last names of all of the relevant students in their press release before retracting them following blowback. We know that the lists contain plenty of names of actual TJ students, though I don't know if anyone's bothered to vet each one.

3) No one is asserting that the whole test was leaked - what they are asserting is that Curie students violated their pledge not to discuss the secured exam and brought the questions back to Curie staff, who then built a question bank off of similar question types. It's also possible -indeed likely - that the Quant-Q reused some questions on future exams, like pretty much every standardized exam company does.

I have seen many people post that the whole test was leaked. So are we now agreeing that no one had the actual test answers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Well said and agree this is indicative of a genuine problem and I'm glad to see the BOE has taken steps to address it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

All of your points are incorrect.

1) Preparing for an exam designed to test raw problem-solving ability =/= preparing for TJ.

2) The numbers are what they are - they posted the first and last names of all of the relevant students in their press release before retracting them following blowback. We know that the lists contain plenty of names of actual TJ students, though I don't know if anyone's bothered to vet each one.

3) No one is asserting that the whole test was leaked - what they are asserting is that Curie students violated their pledge not to discuss the secured exam and brought the questions back to Curie staff, who then built a question bank off of similar question types. It's also possible -indeed likely - that the Quant-Q reused some questions on future exams, like pretty much every standardized exam company does.

I have seen many people post that the whole test was leaked. So are we now agreeing that no one had the actual test answers?

Those people are almost certainly incorrect. What we should be able to agree on, and what TJ students have reported in public forums, is that students in the Class of 2024, when they sat for the TJ exam, had seen questions that were on the Quant-Q before in their work at Curie - and we're not talking like basic algebra questions. These are complicated multi-step word or story problems.

There's been ceaseless speculation as to how that happened. We don't know the answer to that question. But that reporting from TJ students fits neatly with the rapid increase in Curie's numbers that they've reported.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

All of your points are incorrect.

1) Preparing for an exam designed to test raw problem-solving ability =/= preparing for TJ.

2) The numbers are what they are - they posted the first and last names of all of the relevant students in their press release before retracting them following blowback. We know that the lists contain plenty of names of actual TJ students, though I don't know if anyone's bothered to vet each one.

3) No one is asserting that the whole test was leaked - what they are asserting is that Curie students violated their pledge not to discuss the secured exam and brought the questions back to Curie staff, who then built a question bank off of similar question types. It's also possible -indeed likely - that the Quant-Q reused some questions on future exams, like pretty much every standardized exam company does.

I have seen many people post that the whole test was leaked. So are we now agreeing that no one had the actual test answers?

The idea that the test was leaked is an attempt to deflect the blame for this awful situation off of curie and onto either tj or the test producers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

All of your points are incorrect.

1) Preparing for an exam designed to test raw problem-solving ability =/= preparing for TJ.

2) The numbers are what they are - they posted the first and last names of all of the relevant students in their press release before retracting them following blowback. We know that the lists contain plenty of names of actual TJ students, though I don't know if anyone's bothered to vet each one.

3) No one is asserting that the whole test was leaked - what they are asserting is that Curie students violated their pledge not to discuss the secured exam and brought the questions back to Curie staff, who then built a question bank off of similar question types. It's also possible -indeed likely - that the Quant-Q reused some questions on future exams, like pretty much every standardized exam company does.

I disagree completely with #1. Problem solving ability is the most important aspect to succeeding at TJ (followed closely by self motivation/interest). While both of these things can be developed initially during freshman year as students adjust to the pace/rigor and learn how to learn, problem solving ability is by far harder and more time consuming to develop. One can decide they want to be motivated/inspired to learn/succeed, but one doesn't usually just turn into a problem solver overnight. For kids who do not have much of it coming in, it could be years of struggle, or if they are very lucky, perhaps a few months.

Therefore the whole purpose of having a test is to examine raw problem solving abilities (not IQ or some stupid nonsense, but problem solving abilities). If the test mimicked the rigor and creative aspects of something like the AMCs, it will absolutely give a good data point into who is likely to succeed from the start, who may need help initially, and who may end up struggling and be at risk of dropping out.

The whole Curie debacle is pointless, because it has nothing to do with them. They (like any other prep type company) are simply looking out for their students and customers success and their future business. It's not their fault if exam questions are reused, they simply teach students what they know works with whatever information they have from past years... just like every other test prep company out there. That people still debate this point with the claim that "one does not need to study for a test since it's based on natural ability" is one of the dumbest arguments any sane person can make, and it's downright embarrassing that so many folks on these forums endlessly believe in this fallacy (as shown on the endless AAP threads about the Cogat and other tests). TJ is not a place that anyone can just succeed, so it only makes sense that everyone who wants a serious chance to get in, will spend time preparing in some way. This is even more true when it's a well known fact that problem solving abilities indeed allow people to do well on quantitative type tests.

The logical conclusion from the above is that if one really wants to identify the best problem solvers, the test given should be difficult enough where it can more accurately distinguish between those who know how to problem solve, versus those who are just mimicking what they were taught at Curie and other centers. Note, both groups of students are prepped, but it would be silly to believe that someone who doesn't care enough to make any effort to prepare, seriously wants to be at TJ. As usual, this line is not desirable by those in charge because it requires more effort on their part to raise the bar. Why do that, when they can easily convince most people that dropping the test and lowering the bar will lead to a better outcome. When most people only see things in black and white and can't think in shades, it's very easy to paint a picture as test = absolutely bad, thus not necessary.

So the lack of testing data now further blurs the line between who can succeed and who cannot, as it is virtually impossible to determine problem solving abilities of anyone applying to TJ. Nobody can dispute this, and so it is a sad fact that without any actual data, very high weights will be given to things that are much more preppable and can easily be gamed by those who have the means and desire to do so. Note that the Curies of the world will simply try to adapt to this as well and just focus their attention on prepping for student statement/essays/whatever (and who can blame them). The prepping problem will not be fixed, but it isn't really important. The only important thing is identifying the right students who can succeed in the school irrespective of the degree to which they prepped.

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Anonymous wrote:Let’s move on! Demographic make up seems to be working for the class of 2025. All reports so far indicate a successful school year is underway.

ONE WEEK!

Long before this admissions change, the first week or two for TJ freshmen was all about ice breakers and orientation. Not sure why that PP thinks conclusions can be drawn already (except she has an agenda to push).

No conclusions can be drawn already, and the ones that are there to be drawn will be extremely difficult to measure. Making things worse is the fact that families insist on cornering the market on any type of phrasing that can be used to signify an improvement in the environment as "racist" or "dog-whistles" when the problems that have existed at TJ long predate the Asian majority.

For some reason, the status quo crowd seems to want to make all of the problems at TJ about Asians instead of about a flawed admissions process that hadn't REALLY changed that much in 30 years and was well behind the curve with respect to elite educational institutions - as well as a principal who actively didn't do anything to deal with the problems that had arisen at his school that he remade in his own image.

It's a cute strategy that you can probably leverage for the Oppression Olympics, but it's disingenuous and doesn't do much for your public perception.

"Didn't do anything to deal with the problems" - what exactly was the problem? Too many Asians? It's the #1 high school in the country. Really hard to say they weren't doing a good job.

When 30 percent of students in one class is from a prep school that students say they had seen exact test questions, then that's a problem.

Yep

Repetition of lies. Goebbels style.

IF at all it were true, test could have been changed.

Believing that the test could have been changed betrays that you don't know what you're talking about. The Quant-Q is a standardized exam that is designed to measure raw problem-solving ability, and is delivered in testing windows to programs well above and beyond just TJ. It comes in different forms every year, but what we've been able to piece together here suggests that they probably use a question bank where some questions are repeated from time to time on different forms.

The allegations are also not exactly provable, nor are they of expressly illegal behavior - but they absolutely are a reason to adjust the process. Regardless of how effective the Curie program was, they publicly claimed 28% of the Class of 2024 and 70% of that class's contingent from Loudoun County. That's a terrible look no matter how you slice it.

Actually it's great if their claims are true since it means their program is doing a good job preparing many for TJ. In reality the numbers are likely way lower and they just wanted to make marketing claims to get more customers.

If the whole test was leaked, that's a different story and whoever was responsible for keeping it safe before test day should be held accountable.

All of your points are incorrect.

1) Preparing for an exam designed to test raw problem-solving ability =/= preparing for TJ.

2) The numbers are what they are - they posted the first and last names of all of the relevant students in their press release before retracting them following blowback. We know that the lists contain plenty of names of actual TJ students, though I don't know if anyone's bothered to vet each one.

3) No one is asserting that the whole test was leaked - what they are asserting is that Curie students violated their pledge not to discuss the secured exam and brought the questions back to Curie staff, who then built a question bank off of similar question types. It's also possible -indeed likely - that the Quant-Q reused some questions on future exams, like pretty much every standardized exam company does.

I disagree completely with #1. Problem solving ability is the most important aspect to succeeding at TJ (followed closely by self motivation/interest). While both of these things can be developed initially during freshman year as students adjust to the pace/rigor and learn how to learn, problem solving ability is by far harder and more time consuming to develop. One can decide they want to be motivated/inspired to learn/succeed, but one doesn't usually just turn into a problem solver overnight. For kids who do not have much of it coming in, it could be years of struggle, or if they are very lucky, perhaps a few months.

Therefore the whole purpose of having a test is to examine raw problem solving abilities (not IQ or some stupid nonsense, but problem solving abilities). If the test mimicked the rigor and creative aspects of something like the AMCs, it will absolutely give a good data point into who is likely to succeed from the start, who may need help initially, and who may end up struggling and be at risk of dropping out.

The whole Curie debacle is pointless, because it has nothing to do with them. They (like any other prep type company) are simply looking out for their students and customers success and their future business. It's not their fault if exam questions are reused, they simply teach students what they know works with whatever information they have from past years... just like every other test prep company out there. That people still debate this point with the claim that "one does not need to study for a test since it's based on natural ability" is one of the dumbest arguments any sane person can make, and it's downright embarrassing that so many folks on these forums endlessly believe in this fallacy (as shown on the endless AAP threads about the Cogat and other tests). TJ is not a place that anyone can just succeed, so it only makes sense that everyone who wants a serious chance to get in, will spend time preparing in some way. This is even more true when it's a well known fact that problem solving abilities indeed allow people to do well on quantitative type tests.

The logical conclusion from the above is that if one really wants to identify the best problem solvers, the test given should be difficult enough where it can more accurately distinguish between those who know how to problem solve, versus those who are just mimicking what they were taught at Curie and other centers. Note, both groups of students are prepped, but it would be silly to believe that someone who doesn't care enough to make any effort to prepare, seriously wants to be at TJ. As usual, this line is not desirable by those in charge because it requires more effort on their part to raise the bar. Why do that, when they can easily convince most people that dropping the test and lowering the bar will lead to a better outcome. When most people only see things in black and white and can't think in shades, it's very easy to paint a picture as test = absolutely bad, thus not necessary.

So the lack of testing data now further blurs the line between who can succeed and who cannot, as it is virtually impossible to determine problem solving abilities of anyone applying to TJ. Nobody can dispute this, and so it is a sad fact that without any actual data, very high weights will be given to things that are much more preppable and can easily be gamed by those who have the means and desire to do so. Note that the Curies of the world will simply try to adapt to this as well and just focus their attention on prepping for student statement/essays/whatever (and who can blame them). The prepping problem will not be fixed, but it isn't really important. The only important thing is identifying the right students who can succeed in the school irrespective of the degree to which they prepped.

You make a lot of solid points here. My only issue with the bolded is that Curie was teaching the students how to solve the specific types of problems that were on the Quant-Q exam - which is a very different idea than "teaching problem-solving". The difference is the same as the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching them to fish.

Otherwise, I hear a lot of what you're saying.