Demi Lovato now they/them

[Anonymous]

Kind of off topic but are Tom boys not a thing anymore? Tom boys were girls who liked boys but were not stereotypical feminine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe I’m giving away my age here, but back in my day (1990s and 2000s), if you didn’t want to be a girly girl, you just weren’t a girly girl. I don’t understand this misogynistic attention seeking behavior. Look at me! I’m not like other girls. I’m “non-binary” and you can refer to me in the plural. Who gives a shit. Time to break down gender stereotypes, not continue to propagate them with this crap.

Actually as a non-girly girl. It was not easily accepted by family. I was forced to wear dresses, etc. It was not better or easier.

I’m glad non-binary people can stop being put in a box that disgusts them.

Well then you fight for not having to wear dresses, No need to insist people call you a silly pronoun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll admit that I don’t understand being non-binary as a 41 yo cisgender woman. I do understand gender stereotypes and how women have been mistreated for centuries. I was honestly asking DH if I could call myself gender fluid or non-binary because I really like to wear pants or shorts and not tuck in my shirt. I also have several personality traits that are advantageous for men, but not for women. Do I just keep getting labelled aggressive or do I just regender myself?

I have a 10 yo daughter and whenever w ego to Target I remind her that when I was her age we didn’t have “boy” and “girl” Legos. You got one giant bucket of primary colors blocks and used your imagination. We did have some gendered toast like Kid Sister and the equivalent but not at all like it is today.

I appreciate that you're just trying to be descriptive but please stop using this term. It is a gender epithet. You can call yourself a woman, a biological woman, but please stop using an epithet.

How is it an epithet? Please define the term and explain why you think it's an insult?

It is used, almost exclusively, by those in the trans community to denigrate biological men and women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree it seems to really be this odd whirlpool of doing it for attention. I have one niece and one goddaughter who are both in middle school and want to use they and them as pronouns. Their parents comply, and are very hopeful it’s a phase. My daughter is three, and I sincerely hope in another 10 years things have changed so I don’t have to deal with this trend. I’d gladly take the goth trend I put my mother through when I was 12 over this ridiculousness any day.

NP here, and an "elder millennial" that has always felt I straddle the generational divide of Gen Xers (growing up in a pre-internet world) and Millennials.

I vividly remember "trying on identities" when I was a pre-teen/HSer as many people equate the NB movement to (attention seeking, exploratory, hopefully a phase) but why is NB worse than a goth identity? I really clung to the emo culture in HS and depression, self-harm, sadness etc were all glorified. Now as an adult, I see how harmful that identity was to my development and I am working to un-do it. So personally, if my child would rather experiment with more "positive" identity play with NB, body acceptance, radical self love .... that seems better to me than goth/emo.

Why do we have to label it. I agree with a lot of what you wrote and understand not fitting into the stereotypical girl identity but why can't that just be it - we are different, even the girly girls. Why does being different require us to relabel ourselves? I want to still be a woman but sometimes really want a penis, hate dresses, get annoyed by overly emotional women, work in a male field but love doing my hair without labeling myself as something other than a woman.

Elder Millennial again

But why is the label NB more upsetting to you than the label of "goth," "prep," "stoner," "jock" ... etc. All of those labels were widely used without issue in the 80s and 90s, but it's just a new take on young people finding their identity.

This version demands changes to the language I use, for one. It’s brought demands to the rest of society that those other labels didn’t. Additionally, the medicalization of the normal identity exploration that occurs during the teenage years is incredibly disturbing and will have ramifications for years to come.

+1 NP Middle school kids are getting sucked into this via social media—or access to social media via friends—and it sounds fine enough in the beginning, when they think they’re just being super accepting and open-minded. It can spiral fast though, and suddenly girls are looking into binding their chests. And anyone who questions it is automatically transphobic. It’s like they’re brainwashed. Watching a few of my DD’s friends get into this now and just trying desperately to keep my own child grounded in the real world.

Elder Millennial again

But what is so scary about binding your chest? and how is that different than all the struggles of body acceptance that were common when I was growing up (eating disorders, self-harm, excessive tanning, shaving body, dying hair, piercings, etc). It's a form of body modification that people make as they are try to find comfort and acceptance in their own skin during their formative years. I get it's scary, I am just trying to understand why sexuality and gender identity is more scary than emotional identities (like goths/emo) to these posters.

To the PP about the "demands change to the language I use" - isn't that the same as the black population speaking out about how hurtful use of the N word is, and slowly society is realizing it's better to respect other's preferences. There is a bigger world out there than just ourselves. If a person's preference is to be called Jack, or Jane, or X Æ A-12, I will do my best to respect that.

Personally I think the movement towards NB is wonderful, and probably freeing for those that feel conflicted by this arbitrary societal norm (gender) that we placed on them. I speculate we see a decrease in trans individuals as we accept that gender and sexuality isn't binary. There is no 0/1, its a spectrum and set up made up labels to make our society easier to comprehend for the majority that fit neatly into that dichotomy, but can be very confusing and hurtful to those that don't "fit."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree it seems to really be this odd whirlpool of doing it for attention. I have one niece and one goddaughter who are both in middle school and want to use they and them as pronouns. Their parents comply, and are very hopeful it’s a phase. My daughter is three, and I sincerely hope in another 10 years things have changed so I don’t have to deal with this trend. I’d gladly take the goth trend I put my mother through when I was 12 over this ridiculousness any day.

NP here, and an "elder millennial" that has always felt I straddle the generational divide of Gen Xers (growing up in a pre-internet world) and Millennials.

I vividly remember "trying on identities" when I was a pre-teen/HSer as many people equate the NB movement to (attention seeking, exploratory, hopefully a phase) but why is NB worse than a goth identity? I really clung to the emo culture in HS and depression, self-harm, sadness etc were all glorified. Now as an adult, I see how harmful that identity was to my development and I am working to un-do it. So personally, if my child would rather experiment with more "positive" identity play with NB, body acceptance, radical self love .... that seems better to me than goth/emo.

Why do we have to label it. I agree with a lot of what you wrote and understand not fitting into the stereotypical girl identity but why can't that just be it - we are different, even the girly girls. Why does being different require us to relabel ourselves? I want to still be a woman but sometimes really want a penis, hate dresses, get annoyed by overly emotional women, work in a male field but love doing my hair without labeling myself as something other than a woman.

Elder Millennial again

But why is the label NB more upsetting to you than the label of "goth," "prep," "stoner," "jock" ... etc. All of those labels were widely used without issue in the 80s and 90s, but it's just a new take on young people finding their identity.

This version demands changes to the language I use, for one. It’s brought demands to the rest of society that those other labels didn’t. Additionally, the medicalization of the normal identity exploration that occurs during the teenage years is incredibly disturbing and will have ramifications for years to come.

+1 NP Middle school kids are getting sucked into this via social media—or access to social media via friends—and it sounds fine enough in the beginning, when they think they’re just being super accepting and open-minded. It can spiral fast though, and suddenly girls are looking into binding their chests. And anyone who questions it is automatically transphobic. It’s like they’re brainwashed. Watching a few of my DD’s friends get into this now and just trying desperately to keep my own child grounded in the real world.

Elder Millennial again

But what is so scary about binding your chest? and how is that different than all the struggles of body acceptance that were common when I was growing up (eating disorders, self-harm, excessive tanning, shaving body, dying hair, piercings, etc). It's a form of body modification that people make as they are try to find comfort and acceptance in their own skin during their formative years. I get it's scary, I am just trying to understand why sexuality and gender identity is more scary than emotional identities (like goths/emo) to these posters.

To the PP about the "demands change to the language I use" - isn't that the same as the black population speaking out about how hurtful use of the N word is, and slowly society is realizing it's better to respect other's preferences. There is a bigger world out there than just ourselves. If a person's preference is to be called Jack, or Jane, or X Æ A-12, I will do my best to respect that.

Personally I think the movement towards NB is wonderful, and probably freeing for those that feel conflicted by this arbitrary societal norm (gender) that we placed on them. I speculate we see a decrease in trans individuals as we accept that gender and sexuality isn't binary. There is no 0/1, its a spectrum and set up made up labels to make our society easier to comprehend for the majority that fit neatly into that dichotomy, but can be very confusing and hurtful to those that don't "fit."

NP. I think that much of the issue is that there is a strong undercurrent of misogyny to this. When I was growing up, it was eschewing dresses and hanging out with guys and not being "like other girls". Which I now recognize as my own internalized misogyny. This is that to the extreme.

I wear pants and oxford shirts most days, play sports, love cars, etc. But I'm a woman. In my advance psych classes, we learned that transgendered (which, btw is new, it used to be transsexual, which is what they actually are, they feel they were born the wrong sex. You can be whatever the hell gender you want, most people have traits of both) means you feel that you were born in the wrong body. It's body dysmorphia. Nowadays it mostly seems like trauma that is expressing itself in the form of railing against gender norms. But the thing is, you are free to be a masculine woman or a feminine man. I think it cheapens and leads to people dismissing "real" trans people when everyone wants to jump on this bandwagon. It's so much navel gazing, just get on with your life. It's not an insult if someone calls you the wrong pronoun.

[Anonymous]

Chest binding is not a neutral activity. It can cause health issues, some temporary, some permanent. Kids have fractured their ribs using chest binders.

That doesn’t even get into the use of hormones and surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll admit that I don’t understand being non-binary as a 41 yo cisgender woman. I do understand gender stereotypes and how women have been mistreated for centuries. I was honestly asking DH if I could call myself gender fluid or non-binary because I really like to wear pants or shorts and not tuck in my shirt. I also have several personality traits that are advantageous for men, but not for women. Do I just keep getting labelled aggressive or do I just regender myself?

I have a 10 yo daughter and whenever w ego to Target I remind her that when I was her age we didn’t have “boy” and “girl” Legos. You got one giant bucket of primary colors blocks and used your imagination. We did have some gendered toast like Kid Sister and the equivalent but not at all like it is today.

This is no bash on you as I don't completely get it either but I really hope that labeling oneself as nonbinary is more than just not liking dresses and personality traits. We all have them and many women just aren't "girly". I don't know - I applaud this generation for speaking their truth but I hope it is based on a deep understanding of who they are and not simplistic desires to not conform.

Umm, seriously? Of course it's just a faddish way to nonconform, not a "deep understanding" of who they are.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree it seems to really be this odd whirlpool of doing it for attention. I have one niece and one goddaughter who are both in middle school and want to use they and them as pronouns. Their parents comply, and are very hopeful it’s a phase. My daughter is three, and I sincerely hope in another 10 years things have changed so I don’t have to deal with this trend. I’d gladly take the goth trend I put my mother through when I was 12 over this ridiculousness any day.

NP here, and an "elder millennial" that has always felt I straddle the generational divide of Gen Xers (growing up in a pre-internet world) and Millennials.

I vividly remember "trying on identities" when I was a pre-teen/HSer as many people equate the NB movement to (attention seeking, exploratory, hopefully a phase) but why is NB worse than a goth identity? I really clung to the emo culture in HS and depression, self-harm, sadness etc were all glorified. Now as an adult, I see how harmful that identity was to my development and I am working to un-do it. So personally, if my child would rather experiment with more "positive" identity play with NB, body acceptance, radical self love .... that seems better to me than goth/emo.

Why do we have to label it. I agree with a lot of what you wrote and understand not fitting into the stereotypical girl identity but why can't that just be it - we are different, even the girly girls. Why does being different require us to relabel ourselves? I want to still be a woman but sometimes really want a penis, hate dresses, get annoyed by overly emotional women, work in a male field but love doing my hair without labeling myself as something other than a woman.

Elder Millennial again

But why is the label NB more upsetting to you than the label of "goth," "prep," "stoner," "jock" ... etc. All of those labels were widely used without issue in the 80s and 90s, but it's just a new take on young people finding their identity.

This version demands changes to the language I use, for one. It’s brought demands to the rest of society that those other labels didn’t. Additionally, the medicalization of the normal identity exploration that occurs during the teenage years is incredibly disturbing and will have ramifications for years to come.

+1 NP Middle school kids are getting sucked into this via social media—or access to social media via friends—and it sounds fine enough in the beginning, when they think they’re just being super accepting and open-minded. It can spiral fast though, and suddenly girls are looking into binding their chests. And anyone who questions it is automatically transphobic. It’s like they’re brainwashed. Watching a few of my DD’s friends get into this now and just trying desperately to keep my own child grounded in the real world.

Elder Millennial again

But what is so scary about binding your chest? and how is that different than all the struggles of body acceptance that were common when I was growing up (eating disorders, self-harm, excessive tanning, shaving body, dying hair, piercings, etc). It's a form of body modification that people make as they are try to find comfort and acceptance in their own skin during their formative years. I get it's scary, I am just trying to understand why sexuality and gender identity is more scary than emotional identities (like goths/emo) to these posters.

To the PP about the "demands change to the language I use" - isn't that the same as the black population speaking out about how hurtful use of the N word is, and slowly society is realizing it's better to respect other's preferences. There is a bigger world out there than just ourselves. If a person's preference is to be called Jack, or Jane, or X Æ A-12, I will do my best to respect that.

Personally I think the movement towards NB is wonderful, and probably freeing for those that feel conflicted by this arbitrary societal norm (gender) that we placed on them. I speculate we see a decrease in trans individuals as we accept that gender and sexuality isn't binary. There is no 0/1, its a spectrum and set up made up labels to make our society easier to comprehend for the majority that fit neatly into that dichotomy, but can be very confusing and hurtful to those that don't "fit."

NP. I think that much of the issue is that there is a strong undercurrent of misogyny to this. When I was growing up, it was eschewing dresses and hanging out with guys and not being "like other girls". Which I now recognize as my own internalized misogyny. This is that to the extreme.

I wear pants and oxford shirts most days, play sports, love cars, etc. But I'm a woman. In my advance psych classes, we learned that transgendered (which, btw is new, it used to be transsexual, which is what they actually are, they feel they were born the wrong sex. You can be whatever the hell gender you want, most people have traits of both) means you feel that you were born in the wrong body. It's body dysmorphia. Nowadays it mostly seems like trauma that is expressing itself in the form of railing against gender norms. But the thing is, you are free to be a masculine woman or a feminine man. I think it cheapens and leads to people dismissing "real" trans people when everyone wants to jump on this bandwagon. It's so much navel gazing, just get on with your life. It's not an insult if someone calls you the wrong pronoun.

Isn't that what NB people are doing - being whatever the hell gender they want?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll admit that I don’t understand being non-binary as a 41 yo cisgender woman. I do understand gender stereotypes and how women have been mistreated for centuries. I was honestly asking DH if I could call myself gender fluid or non-binary because I really like to wear pants or shorts and not tuck in my shirt. I also have several personality traits that are advantageous for men, but not for women. Do I just keep getting labelled aggressive or do I just regender myself?

I have a 10 yo daughter and whenever w ego to Target I remind her that when I was her age we didn’t have “boy” and “girl” Legos. You got one giant bucket of primary colors blocks and used your imagination. We did have some gendered toast like Kid Sister and the equivalent but not at all like it is today.

I appreciate that you're just trying to be descriptive but please stop using this term. It is a gender epithet. You can call yourself a woman, a biological woman, but please stop using an epithet.

How is it an epithet? Please define the term and explain why you think it's an insult?

It is used, almost exclusively, by those in the trans community to denigrate biological men and women.

What? LOL. Cis is no more inherently offensive than white people. If you say "I am so tired of these white folks in my business," white can be an epithet. The trans community doesn't spend a lot of time denigrating bio women and men. Only in your fever dreams and perhaps online in niche places. But as we all know, voices online are not representative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe I’m giving away my age here, but back in my day (1990s and 2000s), if you didn’t want to be a girly girl, you just weren’t a girly girl. I don’t understand this misogynistic attention seeking behavior. Look at me! I’m not like other girls. I’m “non-binary” and you can refer to me in the plural. Who gives a shit. Time to break down gender stereotypes, not continue to propagate them with this crap.

+1. Totally agree. What’s the need for all these labels? How are they helping? What happened to just accepting everyone no matter how they like to spend their time, what they wear, how short their hair is, etc. I agree that misogyny plays a large role here.

Agree +2. Unclear how having more "boxes" makes us more free. How about: how you choose to live your life (legally) is no one's business. They don't have to applaud you, you don't have to applaud them. Agree that misogyny play a big role in this version of "I'm not like the other girls" pose.

+3

+4. DH and I both think we would probably feel pressured to label ourselves as "non-binary" if we were kids today, because neither of us closely conform to gender stereotypes. But the thing is, most people don't closely conform to gender stereotypes! There is so much freedom in accepting how little affect gender/sex labels have on your identity! I really wish young people today understood that.

[Anonymous]

Is this the newest effort to be relevant?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe I’m giving away my age here, but back in my day (1990s and 2000s), if you didn’t want to be a girly girl, you just weren’t a girly girl. I don’t understand this misogynistic attention seeking behavior. Look at me! I’m not like other girls. I’m “non-binary” and you can refer to me in the plural. Who gives a shit. Time to break down gender stereotypes, not continue to propagate them with this crap.

+1. Totally agree. What’s the need for all these labels? How are they helping? What happened to just accepting everyone no matter how they like to spend their time, what they wear, how short their hair is, etc. I agree that misogyny plays a large role here.

Agree +2. Unclear how having more "boxes" makes us more free. How about: how you choose to live your life (legally) is no one's business. They don't have to applaud you, you don't have to applaud them. Agree that misogyny play a big role in this version of "I'm not like the other girls" pose.

+3

+4. DH and I both think we would probably feel pressured to label ourselves as "non-binary" if we were kids today, because neither of us closely conform to gender stereotypes. But the thing is, most people don't closely conform to gender stereotypes! There is so much freedom in accepting how little affect gender/sex labels have on your identity! I really wish young people today understood that.

+5 It does have more than a whiff of misogyny to say that not like girly things makes you not a girl. The hell does that even mean? How one dimensionally do these non-binary - specifically this non-binary person - view women to be? My god. Maybe I should call myself non-binary since I’m not cuddly all the time and rarely wear dresses? Or maybe women aren’t some 1890s caricature.

Also “they/them” for a single person is clunky and weird. I’m glad they is having a ball though.

[Anonymous]

I feel so sad about the inability to accept and celebrate females of all types and males of all types. I think the reason young people are calling themselves "they" is that they don't feel "woman enough" or "man enough" to fit what has become such tiny gender molds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree it seems to really be this odd whirlpool of doing it for attention. I have one niece and one goddaughter who are both in middle school and want to use they and them as pronouns. Their parents comply, and are very hopeful it’s a phase. My daughter is three, and I sincerely hope in another 10 years things have changed so I don’t have to deal with this trend. I’d gladly take the goth trend I put my mother through when I was 12 over this ridiculousness any day.

NP here, and an "elder millennial" that has always felt I straddle the generational divide of Gen Xers (growing up in a pre-internet world) and Millennials.

I vividly remember "trying on identities" when I was a pre-teen/HSer as many people equate the NB movement to (attention seeking, exploratory, hopefully a phase) but why is NB worse than a goth identity? I really clung to the emo culture in HS and depression, self-harm, sadness etc were all glorified. Now as an adult, I see how harmful that identity was to my development and I am working to un-do it. So personally, if my child would rather experiment with more "positive" identity play with NB, body acceptance, radical self love .... that seems better to me than goth/emo.

Why do we have to label it. I agree with a lot of what you wrote and understand not fitting into the stereotypical girl identity but why can't that just be it - we are different, even the girly girls. Why does being different require us to relabel ourselves? I want to still be a woman but sometimes really want a penis, hate dresses, get annoyed by overly emotional women, work in a male field but love doing my hair without labeling myself as something other than a woman.

Elder Millennial again

But why is the label NB more upsetting to you than the label of "goth," "prep," "stoner," "jock" ... etc. All of those labels were widely used without issue in the 80s and 90s, but it's just a new take on young people finding their identity.

NP. I feel like the difference is that those categories told you something about who kids were and what traits they identified with. NB only tells you what someone is not. Okay, you’re not male or female. What are you? What does NB mean to you? Are you both? Are you neither? You just don’t like labels? I’ll call you “they” if you prefer, but it feels as authentic to me as calling you “it.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll admit that I don’t understand being non-binary as a 41 yo cisgender woman. I do understand gender stereotypes and how women have been mistreated for centuries. I was honestly asking DH if I could call myself gender fluid or non-binary because I really like to wear pants or shorts and not tuck in my shirt. I also have several personality traits that are advantageous for men, but not for women. Do I just keep getting labelled aggressive or do I just regender myself?

I have a 10 yo daughter and whenever w ego to Target I remind her that when I was her age we didn’t have “boy” and “girl” Legos. You got one giant bucket of primary colors blocks and used your imagination. We did have some gendered toast like Kid Sister and the equivalent but not at all like it is today.

I appreciate that you're just trying to be descriptive but please stop using this term. It is a gender epithet. You can call yourself a woman, a biological woman, but please stop using an epithet.

How is it an epithet? Please define the term and explain why you think it's an insult?

It is used, almost exclusively, by those in the trans community to denigrate biological men and women.

What? LOL. Cis is no more inherently offensive than white people. If you say "I am so tired of these white folks in my business," white can be an epithet. The trans community doesn't spend a lot of time denigrating bio women and men. Only in your fever dreams and perhaps online in niche places. But as we all know, voices online are not representative.

I keep telling my middle schoolers that voices online are not representative, but they’re bombarded by provocateurs who are very combative toward toward “cis” people. My kids are convinced that most transgender people are militantly anti-“cis.”