Can we have an honest, good faith conversation about fat acceptance and body positivity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be happy if we could just decouple weight from morality and see it for the public health issue that it is. We have decided that obese people are moral failures, and therefore the solution is for them to be better -- more disciplined, more virtuous in their food choices, more self-denying. When, in fact, a lot of obesity is the result of systemic issues: cheap highly processed food, corn subsidies, food deserts, people unable to cook healthy food for themselves because they are too busy, sleep deprivation, etc., etc., etc.

If we could just separate those things so that your weight is a matter of personal preference and health, not shame.

Having been morbidly obese myself I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong. Good food is always available but fruit and vegetables don’t taste as good potato chips. Canned fruit in juice and frozen vegetable are available at every grocery store and cost the same or less than processed food. But they don’t taste as good.

Then there is the fact that if everyone around you is fat it makes you feel it’s ok to be fat too

And last and most important of all junk food is a cheap form of entertainment. When you don’t have much for extras in a budget, then you begin to reward and treat yourself and family with junk food because you can afford it and because you can justify the purchase even if you can’t really afford it. It’s one of the reason you see a lot of morbidly obese people at food banks. They can get the staples there so they can use food stamps for the “fun” food. I am not condemning but explaining that it really has nothing to do with food availability, processed foods, and most to do with personal choice.

I agree with this formerly morbidly obese poster. True that junk foods taste often better than fruits and veggies (tastes are developed and food industry can manipulate that but you can choose to change that). True that if your peer group is fat, you will feel like it is normalized. True that junk food is a cheap form of entertainment (I don’t judge poor people who don’t have a lot of choices, but there are lots of UMC that eat for fun too.) But kudos to this PP who lost the weight and kept it off. People keep saying it’s statistically negligible, but so many people on this thread alone report success and I know many in my own life.

I agree with posters who say that a lot must be done on a public policy level to change the systemic problems that cause obesity—food desert, poverty, low wages causing overworked, stressed people, food industry manipulating foods to become more addictive, govt subsidies to the precise industries marketing junk, racism, educational and healthcare disparity, and probably so many other things, .... These are things that every single person who cares about the health of society should address if they care about the obesity epidemic.

I agree that trauma, abuse, true untreatable medical conditions (genetic, medication, hormonal imbalances) can also lead to obesity. These people should have access to healthcare and mental health resources. Without judgment and discrimination!

I do not agree, however, that in all cases, obesity is a judgment-free condition. I know some UMC professionals (some even doctors) who are on the high end of morbidly obese. The systemic things do not apply to them. They don’t have medical conditions. They do hang out and associate with only obese people though. They vacation together, host parties together, dine together. They eat for entertainment. One time, someone posted “Happy National Grilled Cheese Day” on social. The whole friend group replied with reminiscing about grilled cheese sandwiches! They constantly post about the latest recipe for a sugary cocktail, coupons for all you can eat places, Disney Food and Wine Festival, buffets, etc. Their entertainment revolves around eating. They married equally obese people (40+ BMI). Gained even more during Covid because they were a pod. These people are hedonistic and are not blameless. In many cases, you cannot dismiss personal accountability for your condition.

[Anonymous]

To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

I agree with this.

I cringe when people talk about how they are naturally thin. Healthy, naturally thin people do not exist. These people eat much less and/or move much more. If we cannot even agree on this, then we are stuck.

Obesity can be treaed by eating less and/or moving more. Our soceity has to find ways to make healthy eating and movement more attractive and accessible. Nobody wants to be obese.

[Anonymous]

No, body positively is just about respecting others’ bodies. So many fat people cannot just exist without people shaming them for their bodies, as though they have a right to pass judgment or comment on them.

Body positively certainly has gotten muddled in media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

I agree with this.

I cringe when people talk about how they are naturally thin. Healthy, naturally thin people do not exist. These people eat much less and/or move much more. If we cannot even agree on this, then we are stuck.

Obesity can be treaed by eating less and/or moving more. Our soceity has to find ways to make healthy eating and movement more attractive and accessible. Nobody wants to be obese.

Except that as per these scientific references (and there are others), the heritability of obesity is between 40 and 70%. Now, that's a wide range, but even if it's "just" 40%, that means that genes contribute close to half of the variability in determining obesity. That could very well mean things like predisposition to satiety and activity levels, but they're still genetically-mediated.

So, if *you* and others who insist it's all environment can't acknowledge the role of genetics, then we are, indeed, stuck.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955913/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104766/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

I agree with this.

I cringe when people talk about how they are naturally thin. Healthy, naturally thin people do not exist. These people eat much less and/or move much more. If we cannot even agree on this, then we are stuck.

Obesity can be treaed by eating less and/or moving more. Our soceity has to find ways to make healthy eating and movement more attractive and accessible. Nobody wants to be obese.

Except that as per these scientific references (and there are others), the heritability of obesity is between 40 and 70%. Now, that's a wide range, but even if it's "just" 40%, that means that genes contribute close to half of the variability in determining obesity. That could very well mean things like predisposition to satiety and activity levels, but they're still genetically-mediated.

So, if *you* and others who insist it's all environment can't acknowledge the role of genetics, then we are, indeed, stuck.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955913/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104766/

This is the role genes play in obesity. The gene markers that contribute to obesity are nearly all able to be counteracted with lifestyle and food choices/limits. No one HAS to be obese because of their genes. They are just prone to eating more than their bodies needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

I agree with this.

I cringe when people talk about how they are naturally thin. Healthy, naturally thin people do not exist. These people eat much less and/or move much more. If we cannot even agree on this, then we are stuck.

Obesity can be treaed by eating less and/or moving more. Our soceity has to find ways to make healthy eating and movement more attractive and accessible. Nobody wants to be obese.

Except that as per these scientific references (and there are others), the heritability of obesity is between 40 and 70%. Now, that's a wide range, but even if it's "just" 40%, that means that genes contribute close to half of the variability in determining obesity. That could very well mean things like predisposition to satiety and activity levels, but they're still genetically-mediated.

So, if *you* and others who insist it's all environment can't acknowledge the role of genetics, then we are, indeed, stuck.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955913/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104766/

Thin people eat much less than obese people, and some obese people have some genetic predispositions that contribute to their obesity. I don't see the contradiction here at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, body positively is just about respecting others’ bodies. So many fat people cannot just exist without people shaming them for their bodies, as though they have a right to pass judgment or comment on them.

Body positively certainly has gotten muddled in media.

Where are these fat people being shamed? I am asking an honest question. I am fat, and my mother is obese. We have never been shamed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think body positivity is fine, and a great thing, when applied appropriately. But there is definitely a problem with body positivity that ignores reality. 99% of people that are obese are unhealthy and can reverse their clinical obesity if they start making healthier lifestyle choices.

All these excuses are garbage.

Start with drinking more water. Then cut out the hooch. Start actually moving - walking. Then start eating more intentionally. The weight will come off. I did it as a partner in a big law firm during COVID. Anybody can do this.

Congrats on your big changes poster. But they are statistically insignificant until/unless you maintain them 5+ years. Good luck, you’ll be an outlier if you do.

Well, it’s been a year, so I don’t think keeping this up will be much of a problem. Why be such a douche bag? Honestly?

What I posted is the truth. None of this is that hard. For me to gain all that weight back would an astonishing accomplishment. I’m not even sure it’s even possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

I agree with this.

I cringe when people talk about how they are naturally thin. Healthy, naturally thin people do not exist. These people eat much less and/or move much more. If we cannot even agree on this, then we are stuck.

Obesity can be treaed by eating less and/or moving more. Our soceity has to find ways to make healthy eating and movement more attractive and accessible. Nobody wants to be obese.

Except that as per these scientific references (and there are others), the heritability of obesity is between 40 and 70%. Now, that's a wide range, but even if it's "just" 40%, that means that genes contribute close to half of the variability in determining obesity. That could very well mean things like predisposition to satiety and activity levels, but they're still genetically-mediated.

So, if *you* and others who insist it's all environment can't acknowledge the role of genetics, then we are, indeed, stuck.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955913/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104766/

Thin people eat much less than obese people, and some obese people have some genetic predispositions that contribute to their obesity. I don't see the contradiction here at all.

The contradiction is the insistence that "naturally" thin people don't exist and frankly, yes, they do. There are people for whom it is MUCH easier to "eat less and move more" than others, and we need to acknowledge that. It's a privilege, and maybe people don't want to accept that, but it's there, all the same. That has to be the foundation for an honest conversation about obesity. It doesn't mean people can't do things to improve their health at any size, but it does mean some people have a real advantage in achieving the goal of not being obese.

I say this as someone who builds muscle easily for a woman, and I know what an advantage that gives me, i.e., this issue is bigger than obesity, it's about acknowledging the advantages that genetics confer on some people for some traits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, body positively is just about respecting others’ bodies. So many fat people cannot just exist without people shaming them for their bodies, as though they have a right to pass judgment or comment on them.

Body positively certainly has gotten muddled in media.

Where are these fat people being shamed? I am asking an honest question. I am fat, and my mother is obese. We have never been shamed.

Have you read Lindy West’s book shrill? She really goes into it and it was very eye-opening (and hilarious).

Also a lot of fat people on social media talk about it. They basically can’t post photos of themselves doing anything without insulting and sometimes degrading comments about their weight.

I’m super glad you and your mother haven’t felt shamed. That’s very heartening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What role does metabolism play into this? What about genes?

Huge. Both of them.

What role does bending ones elbow with a fork in it too much play in this? Huge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, body positively is just about respecting others’ bodies. So many fat people cannot just exist without people shaming them for their bodies, as though they have a right to pass judgment or comment on them.

Body positively certainly has gotten muddled in media.

Where are these fat people being shamed? I am asking an honest question. I am fat, and my mother is obese. We have never been shamed.

Have you read Lindy West’s book shrill? She really goes into it and it was very eye-opening (and hilarious).

Also a lot of fat people on social media talk about it. They basically can’t post photos of themselves doing anything without insulting and sometimes degrading comments about their weight.

I’m super glad you and your mother haven’t felt shamed. That’s very heartening.

Hunger by Roxane Gay is a good one too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, body positively is just about respecting others’ bodies. So many fat people cannot just exist without people shaming them for their bodies, as though they have a right to pass judgment or comment on them.

Body positively certainly has gotten muddled in media.

Where are these fat people being shamed? I am asking an honest question. I am fat, and my mother is obese. We have never been shamed.

Everywhere! I was on the boardwalk this summer fully dressed (not a swim suit) carrying my 3 year old daughter and one of the game guys with a mic started singing "She's a Brick House" in the mic. It was clearly directed at me. Mostly I was pissed because I was there with my preschool daughter.

That is just one of many nearly daily examples.

I'm a size 16/18...so not TLC show size.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's title question, no, we really can't have a productive conversation -- for reasons this thread has largely shown.

Personally I think it's important to separate "body positivity" from "obesity." I admit some availabilty bias because this is just my own anecdata, but I came from an obese family. Meat and potatoes for every meal. A second helping with velveeta on top. Dessert with every meal. Not much exercise. Oh sure, because the boys in the family played football, we'd tell ourselves that although we were big at least we were "active," but we weren't, not really. And anyways, my brothers and cousins stopped football after high school but kept up the eating. And everyone in the family tells themselves it's "genetic" and there's nothing we could do about it. "We've always been big-boned."

As an adult, though, I basically ended up testing the genetic hypothesis by committing to getting to a size and lifestyle that I viewed as healthy. Yes to vegetables, no to sweets. Consistent exercise, almost every day. And it worked. It turns out there was something we could do about it. Sure, there are genetic things that differentiate me from a supermodel. I have wide hips, chicken wing shoulders, and am self conscious about a dozen other things that I can't change. And I'm grateful for body positivity for helping me accept this about myself.

But true obesity is rarely like that. With extremely few exceptions--like a rare medical condition actually diagnosed by a doctor, not just family lore--you simply do not find morbidly obese people, my relatives included, who are eating clean, tracking calories, regularly exercising, and only having sweets and booze in extreme moderation.

I agree with this.

I cringe when people talk about how they are naturally thin. Healthy, naturally thin people do not exist. These people eat much less and/or move much more. If we cannot even agree on this, then we are stuck.

Obesity can be treaed by eating less and/or moving more. Our soceity has to find ways to make healthy eating and movement more attractive and accessible. Nobody wants to be obese.

Except that as per these scientific references (and there are others), the heritability of obesity is between 40 and 70%. Now, that's a wide range, but even if it's "just" 40%, that means that genes contribute close to half of the variability in determining obesity. That could very well mean things like predisposition to satiety and activity levels, but they're still genetically-mediated.

So, if *you* and others who insist it's all environment can't acknowledge the role of genetics, then we are, indeed, stuck.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955913/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104766/

Thin people eat much less than obese people, and some obese people have some genetic predispositions that contribute to their obesity. I don't see the contradiction here at all.

The contradiction is the insistence that "naturally" thin people don't exist and frankly, yes, they do. There are people for whom it is MUCH easier to "eat less and move more" than others, and we need to acknowledge that. It's a privilege, and maybe people don't want to accept that, but it's there, all the same. That has to be the foundation for an honest conversation about obesity. It doesn't mean people can't do things to improve their health at any size, but it does mean some people have a real advantage in achieving the goal of not being obese.

I say this as someone who builds muscle easily for a woman, and I know what an advantage that gives me, i.e., this issue is bigger than obesity, it's about acknowledging the advantages that genetics confer on some people for some traits.

We do agree that naturally thin people eat less and move more. My "cringe" comment was with respect to those who insist that naturally thin people are that way regardless of how much they eat or move.

As for your opinion of the foundation for an honest discussion about obesity, I am not sure I understand it. Are you suggesting that the foundation for obesity is admitting that some people have advantages and privileges that others don't? Isn't this common knowledge?