6 year old arrested at school. Florida, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb shit. Thread doesn't deserve 8 pages. About to ask Jeff to delete it altogether the "debate" is ridiculous.

Your use of profanity is vulgar. And I’ll never understand the adult imbeciles that run to Jeff to complain about thread topics. I mean FFS, get a life.

That was the funniest shit I read all day.
Thanks!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New poster, here's my two cents.

When DS was 6 in Kindergarten, he had a brain anomaly that caused a significant change in his behavior. it took two months to be diagnosed, and lucky for us was treated and is in full remission.

For the two months between his overnight change in behavior and diagnosis, he had very serious behavior problems - anxiety, physical responses to fear stimulus, random outburst, obstinacy and defiance, etc. At home, we were having to regularly pin him down and restrain him. At school, they evacuated the classroom multiple times, brought in multiple staffers to guard the doors of the class to prevent flight, and on one occasion me and the special ed teacher had to do the "two person physically drag him out of the class to a safe space" thing.

My kid is white - the school gave him and us the huge benefit of the doubt. He was suspended multiple times, but did not escalate to resource officer or other serious consequences.

Before a physical issue was found in his brain, we and his doctors were pouring over the DSM trying to figure out what was going on. Age-5 onset autism? ODD? anxiety? bipolar? BPD? I spent a lot of time reading about these disorders. You know what I found out?

- Mental disorders impact a HUGE portion of society. ADHD is easily 5-10% of kids. ASD is 2-5% now. Anxiety impacts a ton of kids. While there is overlap between those conditions, together they easily account for 10-13% of kids. Then add in the rarer ones like ODD, bipolar, BPD, etc.
- It is not abnormal for any of these disorders to come with physical violent/tantrum symptoms in kids.
- Kindergarten is the first time many kids have been put in environments that have the potential to really escalate these responses. ADHD and autism kids are highly responsive to sensory stimulus. Anxiety is obviously going to be a big problem for kids starting school. Etc. Families may have unknowingly put in place systems that have mitigated their kids' challenges at home, and kindergarten is really going to put them on display for the first time. No surprise, it takes a LONG time to get these issues sorted out once K starts, and that means a long time of challenges on full display in the classroom.
- While most kids don't have physical behavior problems in early elementary, the above disorders mean that it is not abnormal to see these responses. I was horrified by what was happening with my son (and extremely proactive in getting to the bottom of it), but the school assured me it wasn't the worst they would see that month, and they deal with physical stuff pretty frequently. That said, administration were pretty "martyr-like" about DS's physical behavior, and recorded everything in his file as "violent" "hitting" "assault" etc. His teacher and I became good friends, and she confided that what they would mark down as "attacked teacher" was pretty minor physical stuff that they see all the time. The school, as caring as they were, addressed everything the same - if son had a freak out and climbed under the table and knocked over his chair, they evacuated the classroom and brought 4 teachers in to stand at the doors with their arms crossed, and then one teacher would try and corner him to dial down his behavior. You can imagine that this is going to escalate the panicked out of control behavior quickly.
- Per several developmental pediatricians, young elementary age kids do not physically misbehave just to be brats. They do so because they genuinely don't have the tools to deal with what has bene thrown at them. You can have more philosophical conversations about bad behavior in later elementary school. But at age 6, a kid doesn't have physical outbursts because of "bad parenting".

EXCELLENT post, extremely perceptive. Right down to the school admin being as inflammatory as possible in their written comments and having no clue about desescalation -- obviously CYA to justify use of force.

The only thing I would add is that there are extremely well-researched and EFFECTIVE ways to intervene to reduce aggressive behavior and provide additional supports - but all too often, the school takes a punitive approach (even with my 3 year old!) and sits on their hands and waits for everything to fall apart, instead of engaging with these resources. After dealing with my kid's behavioral issues, that is still the single thing that gets me the most: how the school completely failed to engage evidence-based resources to solve a known and common issue.

Anyway, glad your son is better! We got interventions for our son at 3 and a strong IEP, and now at 6, he behaves (almost) perfectly. But I have no doubt that if we were black with fewer resources, we could be in the exact same position as this 6 year old girl and her Grandma.

I'm not real clear on how the average 1st grade teacher- or 10 of them- are qualified to handle undiagnosed/untreated medical conditions. I am truly not trying to be rude here but if my kid is having some sort of a medical crisis I take them to the doctor or call 911...I don't call their teacher.

I guess I don't understand the logic in doing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New poster, here's my two cents.

When DS was 6 in Kindergarten, he had a brain anomaly that caused a significant change in his behavior. it took two months to be diagnosed, and lucky for us was treated and is in full remission.

For the two months between his overnight change in behavior and diagnosis, he had very serious behavior problems - anxiety, physical responses to fear stimulus, random outburst, obstinacy and defiance, etc. At home, we were having to regularly pin him down and restrain him. At school, they evacuated the classroom multiple times, brought in multiple staffers to guard the doors of the class to prevent flight, and on one occasion me and the special ed teacher had to do the "two person physically drag him out of the class to a safe space" thing.

My kid is white - the school gave him and us the huge benefit of the doubt. He was suspended multiple times, but did not escalate to resource officer or other serious consequences.

Before a physical issue was found in his brain, we and his doctors were pouring over the DSM trying to figure out what was going on. Age-5 onset autism? ODD? anxiety? bipolar? BPD? I spent a lot of time reading about these disorders. You know what I found out?

- Mental disorders impact a HUGE portion of society. ADHD is easily 5-10% of kids. ASD is 2-5% now. Anxiety impacts a ton of kids. While there is overlap between those conditions, together they easily account for 10-13% of kids. Then add in the rarer ones like ODD, bipolar, BPD, etc.
- It is not abnormal for any of these disorders to come with physical violent/tantrum symptoms in kids.
- Kindergarten is the first time many kids have been put in environments that have the potential to really escalate these responses. ADHD and autism kids are highly responsive to sensory stimulus. Anxiety is obviously going to be a big problem for kids starting school. Etc. Families may have unknowingly put in place systems that have mitigated their kids' challenges at home, and kindergarten is really going to put them on display for the first time. No surprise, it takes a LONG time to get these issues sorted out once K starts, and that means a long time of challenges on full display in the classroom.
- While most kids don't have physical behavior problems in early elementary, the above disorders mean that it is not abnormal to see these responses. I was horrified by what was happening with my son (and extremely proactive in getting to the bottom of it), but the school assured me it wasn't the worst they would see that month, and they deal with physical stuff pretty frequently. That said, administration were pretty "martyr-like" about DS's physical behavior, and recorded everything in his file as "violent" "hitting" "assault" etc. His teacher and I became good friends, and she confided that what they would mark down as "attacked teacher" was pretty minor physical stuff that they see all the time. The school, as caring as they were, addressed everything the same - if son had a freak out and climbed under the table and knocked over his chair, they evacuated the classroom and brought 4 teachers in to stand at the doors with their arms crossed, and then one teacher would try and corner him to dial down his behavior. You can imagine that this is going to escalate the panicked out of control behavior quickly.
- Per several developmental pediatricians, young elementary age kids do not physically misbehave just to be brats. They do so because they genuinely don't have the tools to deal with what has bene thrown at them. You can have more philosophical conversations about bad behavior in later elementary school. But at age 6, a kid doesn't have physical outbursts because of "bad parenting".

EXCELLENT post, extremely perceptive. Right down to the school admin being as inflammatory as possible in their written comments and having no clue about desescalation -- obviously CYA to justify use of force.

The only thing I would add is that there are extremely well-researched and EFFECTIVE ways to intervene to reduce aggressive behavior and provide additional supports - but all too often, the school takes a punitive approach (even with my 3 year old!) and sits on their hands and waits for everything to fall apart, instead of engaging with these resources. After dealing with my kid's behavioral issues, that is still the single thing that gets me the most: how the school completely failed to engage evidence-based resources to solve a known and common issue.

Anyway, glad your son is better! We got interventions for our son at 3 and a strong IEP, and now at 6, he behaves (almost) perfectly. But I have no doubt that if we were black with fewer resources, we could be in the exact same position as this 6 year old girl and her Grandma.

I'm not real clear on how the average 1st grade teacher- or 10 of them- are qualified to handle undiagnosed/untreated medical conditions. I am truly not trying to be rude here but if my kid is having some sort of a medical crisis I take them to the doctor or call 911...I don't call their teacher.

I guess I don't understand the logic in doing that.

I'm the original PP you're responding to. No one is "calling their teacher" about their kids' medical crises. We did call the doctor during that period. Probably an average of 8 doctor/therapist appointments a week. Even with perfectly good insurance, we spent around $40,000 over the span of 3 months trying to diagnose what was happening. Now think about poor black kid in Orlando whose parents have neither the time, money or capacity to get to that end point in 3 months.

We would keep our son home for a day from school; then it happened the very next day. So we'd keep him home 2 days from school; then 5 days. Again, lucky me being rich enough and stably employed - that i just "worked" from home a ton (you can guess how much work was taking place during this period). I still can't believe i didn't get fired.

Like i said, putting these kids in school settings will really escalate a lot of problems for a lot of kids with mental disorders. DS would be fine for 3 days at home. So we'd send him back to school. We couldn't just keep him home in perpetuity when we had no educational resources in place for homeschooling. Same with all these kids. Maybe they're 98% perfectly well behaved at home. And the parents are in fact trying to do everything they can (within their $$, time and educational limits) to get a diagnosis. But if you don't have money and time, or you have a pretty run of the mill issue like ADHD comorbid with anxiety, it is easily going to take a year to navigate the process with diagnosis/approriate medication/school supports.

DUring the year, parents are sitting with their fingers up their butts. They are generally horrified this is happening to them. But they are literally doing everything they can do.

So their kid is doing badly in school, plus once a week has a behavioral issue, and once a month that behavioral issue is "violent" (note -- per my explanation above, the "violent" behavior is, at the K level, usually not dangerous or particularly violent, but could just mean the kid swatted at the teacher to get away). Does the poor parent working as a housekeeper keep this kid home for a year while navigating the system and trying to get the diagnosis/treatment/school supports in place?

[Anonymous]

^Thank you for your detailed explanation, PP. There's nothing quite like hearing from someone who has actually been there and done that.

At the same time, I am trying to envision myself repeatedly dropping my own 6 year old child off at school knowing that at any time his explosive behavior could require the evacuation of his peers from the classroom....and I am just not seeing how that would ever be in the best interests of my child. I would be concerned for my child's well being, basic dignity, privacy and, quite frankly, his reputation.

If these behavior issues are being caused by some sort of undiagnosed/untreated medical problem wouldn't that better be addressed within some sort of a medical setting?

[Anonymous]

To 12:47 above (not quoting that novel):

Are the rest of us supposed to be fine with dropping our kid off in this kid’s classroom and just hope he doesn’t have a bad day? The other kids have rights too and they deserve a teacher who isn’t monopolized by the issues of one kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New poster, here's my two cents.

When DS was 6 in Kindergarten, he had a brain anomaly that caused a significant change in his behavior. it took two months to be diagnosed, and lucky for us was treated and is in full remission.

For the two months between his overnight change in behavior and diagnosis, he had very serious behavior problems - anxiety, physical responses to fear stimulus, random outburst, obstinacy and defiance, etc. At home, we were having to regularly pin him down and restrain him. At school, they evacuated the classroom multiple times, brought in multiple staffers to guard the doors of the class to prevent flight, and on one occasion me and the special ed teacher had to do the "two person physically drag him out of the class to a safe space" thing.

My kid is white - the school gave him and us the huge benefit of the doubt. He was suspended multiple times, but did not escalate to resource officer or other serious consequences.

Before a physical issue was found in his brain, we and his doctors were pouring over the DSM trying to figure out what was going on. Age-5 onset autism? ODD? anxiety? bipolar? BPD? I spent a lot of time reading about these disorders. You know what I found out?

- Mental disorders impact a HUGE portion of society. ADHD is easily 5-10% of kids. ASD is 2-5% now. Anxiety impacts a ton of kids. While there is overlap between those conditions, together they easily account for 10-13% of kids. Then add in the rarer ones like ODD, bipolar, BPD, etc.
- It is not abnormal for any of these disorders to come with physical violent/tantrum symptoms in kids.
- Kindergarten is the first time many kids have been put in environments that have the potential to really escalate these responses. ADHD and autism kids are highly responsive to sensory stimulus. Anxiety is obviously going to be a big problem for kids starting school. Etc. Families may have unknowingly put in place systems that have mitigated their kids' challenges at home, and kindergarten is really going to put them on display for the first time. No surprise, it takes a LONG time to get these issues sorted out once K starts, and that means a long time of challenges on full display in the classroom.
- While most kids don't have physical behavior problems in early elementary, the above disorders mean that it is not abnormal to see these responses. I was horrified by what was happening with my son (and extremely proactive in getting to the bottom of it), but the school assured me it wasn't the worst they would see that month, and they deal with physical stuff pretty frequently. That said, administration were pretty "martyr-like" about DS's physical behavior, and recorded everything in his file as "violent" "hitting" "assault" etc. His teacher and I became good friends, and she confided that what they would mark down as "attacked teacher" was pretty minor physical stuff that they see all the time. The school, as caring as they were, addressed everything the same - if son had a freak out and climbed under the table and knocked over his chair, they evacuated the classroom and brought 4 teachers in to stand at the doors with their arms crossed, and then one teacher would try and corner him to dial down his behavior. You can imagine that this is going to escalate the panicked out of control behavior quickly.
- Per several developmental pediatricians, young elementary age kids do not physically misbehave just to be brats. They do so because they genuinely don't have the tools to deal with what has bene thrown at them. You can have more philosophical conversations about bad behavior in later elementary school. But at age 6, a kid doesn't have physical outbursts because of "bad parenting".

EXCELLENT post, extremely perceptive. Right down to the school admin being as inflammatory as possible in their written comments and having no clue about desescalation -- obviously CYA to justify use of force.

The only thing I would add is that there are extremely well-researched and EFFECTIVE ways to intervene to reduce aggressive behavior and provide additional supports - but all too often, the school takes a punitive approach (even with my 3 year old!) and sits on their hands and waits for everything to fall apart, instead of engaging with these resources. After dealing with my kid's behavioral issues, that is still the single thing that gets me the most: how the school completely failed to engage evidence-based resources to solve a known and common issue.

Anyway, glad your son is better! We got interventions for our son at 3 and a strong IEP, and now at 6, he behaves (almost) perfectly. But I have no doubt that if we were black with fewer resources, we could be in the exact same position as this 6 year old girl and her Grandma.

I'm not real clear on how the average 1st grade teacher- or 10 of them- are qualified to handle undiagnosed/untreated medical conditions. I am truly not trying to be rude here but if my kid is having some sort of a medical crisis I take them to the doctor or call 911...I don't call their teacher.

I guess I don't understand the logic in doing that.

Huh? The kid was in crisis at school. And yes, schools are by law supposed to identify children with disabilities that impact their ability to access the curriculum, and these disabilities OFTEN take the form of bad behavior before they are addressed. Moreover, even if the kid has no disability, there are evidence-based ways to help that child that do not involve calling the police on a 6 year old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^Thank you for your detailed explanation, PP. There's nothing quite like hearing from someone who has actually been there and done that.

At the same time, I am trying to envision myself repeatedly dropping my own 6 year old child off at school knowing that at any time his explosive behavior could require the evacuation of his peers from the classroom....and I am just not seeing how that would ever be in the best interests of my child. I would be concerned for my child's well being, basic dignity, privacy and, quite frankly, his reputation.

If these behavior issues are being caused by some sort of undiagnosed/untreated medical problem wouldn't that better be addressed within some sort of a medical setting?

FFS. Can you read? We parents are EXTREMELY concerned, and working overtime to get our kids what they need (and get the school to do their part as well). Kids are required by law to attend school-- they can't just be kept home, and not all families can afford to homeschool. Are you suggesting that all kids with ADHD be institutionalized or something? You seem to be thinking that there's some kind of magic bullet. There is not. this stuff takes time, a huge amount of parental resources, and a school genuinely interested in helping the child (most are not).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To 12:47 above (not quoting that novel):

Are the rest of us supposed to be fine with dropping our kid off in this kid’s classroom and just hope he doesn’t have a bad day? The other kids have rights too and they deserve a teacher who isn’t monopolized by the issues of one kid.

Ok, so what's your solution? My guess is your solution is "blame the parents for being bad parents." That will not get you very far. You can chose to open your ears and learn about how this situation unfolds, or you can advocate for arresting 6 year olds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only kicked someone. Gosh... that’s good to hear?

Seriously, WTF? We now expect our teachers to put up with physical abuse from their students? Come on. Let the teachers teach. This kid needs some sort of serious intervention and if her parent/guardian isn't providing it then maybe it needs to be court ordered.

You expect CHILDREN to be arrested for kicking? Are you drunk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only kicked someone. Gosh... that’s good to hear?

Seriously, WTF? We now expect our teachers to put up with physical abuse from their students? Come on. Let the teachers teach. This kid needs some sort of serious intervention and if her parent/guardian isn't providing it then maybe it needs to be court ordered.

You expect CHILDREN to be arrested for kicking? Are you drunk?

I didn't actually say that though did I? I said the kid needs some sort of serious intervention whatever that may be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Thank you for your detailed explanation, PP. There's nothing quite like hearing from someone who has actually been there and done that.

At the same time, I am trying to envision myself repeatedly dropping my own 6 year old child off at school knowing that at any time his explosive behavior could require the evacuation of his peers from the classroom....and I am just not seeing how that would ever be in the best interests of my child. I would be concerned for my child's well being, basic dignity, privacy and, quite frankly, his reputation.

If these behavior issues are being caused by some sort of undiagnosed/untreated medical problem wouldn't that better be addressed within some sort of a medical setting?

FFS. Can you read? We parents are EXTREMELY concerned, and working overtime to get our kids what they need (and get the school to do their part as well). Kids are required by law to attend school-- they can't just be kept home, and not all families can afford to homeschool. Are you suggesting that all kids with ADHD be institutionalized or something? You seem to be thinking that there's some kind of magic bullet. There is not. this stuff takes time, a huge amount of parental resources, and a school genuinely interested in helping the child (most are not).

Oh, I am sure that it's an extremely stressful situation for ALL concerned. That was sort of my point. I would, personally, not want to have to handle things like this but maybe this is the best they've got right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Thank you for your detailed explanation, PP. There's nothing quite like hearing from someone who has actually been there and done that.

At the same time, I am trying to envision myself repeatedly dropping my own 6 year old child off at school knowing that at any time his explosive behavior could require the evacuation of his peers from the classroom....and I am just not seeing how that would ever be in the best interests of my child. I would be concerned for my child's well being, basic dignity, privacy and, quite frankly, his reputation.

If these behavior issues are being caused by some sort of undiagnosed/untreated medical problem wouldn't that better be addressed within some sort of a medical setting?

FFS. Can you read? We parents are EXTREMELY concerned, and working overtime to get our kids what they need (and get the school to do their part as well). Kids are required by law to attend school-- they can't just be kept home, and not all families can afford to homeschool. Are you suggesting that all kids with ADHD be institutionalized or something? You seem to be thinking that there's some kind of magic bullet. There is not. this stuff takes time, a huge amount of parental resources, and a school genuinely interested in helping the child (most are not).

Oh, I am sure that it's an extremely stressful situation for ALL concerned. That was sort of my point. I would, personally, not want to have to handle things like this but maybe this is the best they've got right now.

If you don't want to work to identify and support disabled children, and have no resources to deal with 6 year old behavioral issues, then you should not be an elementary school teacher.

[Anonymous]

I love how this board, made up primarily of people in the DMV, make fun of Florida, "Florida, of course" in the title, and then proceed to argue that what that fool did was just A-OK, because behavior problems, brats, bad parenting.... Seriously?

But sure, it's a Florida problem. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Thank you for your detailed explanation, PP. There's nothing quite like hearing from someone who has actually been there and done that.

At the same time, I am trying to envision myself repeatedly dropping my own 6 year old child off at school knowing that at any time his explosive behavior could require the evacuation of his peers from the classroom....and I am just not seeing how that would ever be in the best interests of my child. I would be concerned for my child's well being, basic dignity, privacy and, quite frankly, his reputation.

If these behavior issues are being caused by some sort of undiagnosed/untreated medical problem wouldn't that better be addressed within some sort of a medical setting?

FFS. Can you read? We parents are EXTREMELY concerned, and working overtime to get our kids what they need (and get the school to do their part as well). Kids are required by law to attend school-- they can't just be kept home, and not all families can afford to homeschool. Are you suggesting that all kids with ADHD be institutionalized or something? You seem to be thinking that there's some kind of magic bullet. There is not. this stuff takes time, a huge amount of parental resources, and a school genuinely interested in helping the child (most are not).

Oh, I am sure that it's an extremely stressful situation for ALL concerned. That was sort of my point. I would, personally, not want to have to handle things like this but maybe this is the best they've got right now.

If you don't want to work to identify and support disabled children, and have no resources to deal with 6 year old behavioral issues, then you should not be an elementary school teacher.

FWIW, I am not and have never been, nor am I looking to become, an elementary school teacher. I was strictly speaking as a parent - my heart would break to send my child to school under those conditions. And I'm sorry that you have had to deal with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how this board, made up primarily of people in the DMV, make fun of Florida, "Florida, of course" in the title, and then proceed to argue that what that fool did was just A-OK, because behavior problems, brats, bad parenting.... Seriously?

But sure, it's a Florida problem. Got it.

Most of us are acknowledging that the little girl probably does have a medical issue that NEEDS to be addressed. Hopefully that is happening and hopefully she is doing well in school now!