New study on relative impact of Harvard Admissions Preferences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: What do you think of the children of faculty and staff getting those preferences?

It's exceedingly unfair.

It is a method to recruit top scholars, though.

Exactly. University professors many times could make more much money outside of academia. One way to attract the top people in a field is to offer benefits such as lower or no tuition and a preference in admissions for their children.

It benefits all the students when they are taught by top scholars in their fields.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the reason this person does not accept your point is that they are 1) Asian American who believes they are being discriminated against, and 2) believe “merit” = “test scores.” Prove me wrong.

Read the data. They’re higher rated on academic and extracurricular ratings. What do you mean by merit? The ability to throw a lacrosse ball?

If you don’t think Asian american applicants are disadvantaged in the process vis a vis all other groups then there is no point to trying to convince you.

This is obvious. I am amazed by the deniers.

The Harvard case exposed it, with actual data to back it up.

The most amazing thing was those Personality scores -- interviewers gave Asian Americans the same scores on average as other groups, but admissions staff who had never met them gave them way worse scores in order to penalize them.

What a shameful scam.

The question no one answers and people pretend they don’t understand, repeated again:

While it appears that way when you look at just Harvard and a single-digit number of other colleges, isn’t the exact opposite at 99% of all other colleges where Asian is an URM?

False premise, wrong facts, stupid question.

Well, when you present all those facts in such a detailed and thoughtful response, it is hard to argue.

Lol... face the truth man. Not a false premise, DEFINITELY NOT THE WRONG FACTS, and a question you don't want to answer truthfully.

DP. What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process? I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference. You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Yes, you are talking about schools where Asians are Under represented. Any selective school tries to achieve racial Balance so there is a benefit to any student applying there where they are under represented. This has been explained many times in this thread and others here with the schools listed even. And there are many others be on the ones listed. You only have data for Harvard because they were sued

You’re assuming this. It’s been claimed but not proven in any way. Random anonymous people posting on this forum is not a reliable source. It’s an interesting theory and I’m sure you think it is true but indulge me because I would like to see actual evidence this is actually happening. It seems equally possible to me that URM means historically under represented minorities and that this is measured not on a school by school basis but on a general societal basis. In which case Asians may not be included in the definition.

And a question: if they’re looking for ‘racial balance’, then why doesn’t Harvard have it? Asians are over represented and Hispanics under. So maybe racial balance isn’t the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the reason this person does not accept your point is that they are 1) Asian American who believes they are being discriminated against, and 2) believe “merit” = “test scores.” Prove me wrong.

Read the data. They’re higher rated on academic and extracurricular ratings. What do you mean by merit? The ability to throw a lacrosse ball?

If you don’t think Asian american applicants are disadvantaged in the process vis a vis all other groups then there is no point to trying to convince you.

This is obvious. I am amazed by the deniers.

The Harvard case exposed it, with actual data to back it up.

The most amazing thing was those Personality scores -- interviewers gave Asian Americans the same scores on average as other groups, but admissions staff who had never met them gave them way worse scores in order to penalize them.

What a shameful scam.

The question no one answers and people pretend they don’t understand, repeated again:

While it appears that way when you look at just Harvard and a single-digit number of other colleges, isn’t the exact opposite at 99% of all other colleges where Asian is an URM?

False premise, wrong facts, stupid question.

Well, when you present all those facts in such a detailed and thoughtful response, it is hard to argue.

Lol... face the truth man. Not a false premise, DEFINITELY NOT THE WRONG FACTS, and a question you don't want to answer truthfully.

DP. What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process? I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference. You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Yes, you are talking about schools where Asians are Under represented. Any selective school tries to achieve racial Balance so there is a benefit to any student applying there where they are under represented. This has been explained many times in this thread and others here with the schools listed even. And there are many others be on the ones listed. You only have data for Harvard because they were sued

The very premise that some race is over or underrepresented is racist in itself.

[Anonymous]

To those of you who dislike the Harvard handles admissions:

How would you prefer they run their admissions process? What characteristics specifically would you prefer that they look at and how would they be measured and prioritized?

Would you prefer that the school have a different mission than it presently has? How would you word that mission in one sentence?

What are the ways, both in admissions and in the daily life of the school that you would like to see them change?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To those of you who dislike the way Harvard handles admissions:

How would you prefer they run their admissions process? What characteristics specifically would you prefer that they look at and how would they be measured and prioritized?

Would you prefer that the school have a different mission than it presently has? How would you word that mission in one sentence?

What are the ways, both in admissions and in the daily life of the school, that you would like to see them change?

Corrected version above. Sorry, didn’t proofread and hit sent too quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the reason this person does not accept your point is that they are 1) Asian American who believes they are being discriminated against, and 2) believe “merit” = “test scores.” Prove me wrong.

Read the data. They’re higher rated on academic and extracurricular ratings. What do you mean by merit? The ability to throw a lacrosse ball?

If you don’t think Asian american applicants are disadvantaged in the process vis a vis all other groups then there is no point to trying to convince you.

This is obvious. I am amazed by the deniers.

The Harvard case exposed it, with actual data to back it up.

The most amazing thing was those Personality scores -- interviewers gave Asian Americans the same scores on average as other groups, but admissions staff who had never met them gave them way worse scores in order to penalize them.

What a shameful scam.

The question no one answers and people pretend they don’t understand, repeated again:

While it appears that way when you look at just Harvard and a single-digit number of other colleges, isn’t the exact opposite at 99% of all other colleges where Asian is an URM?

False premise, wrong facts, stupid question.

Well, when you present all those facts in such a detailed and thoughtful response, it is hard to argue.

Lol... face the truth man. Not a false premise, DEFINITELY NOT THE WRONG FACTS, and a question you don't want to answer truthfully.

DP. What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process? I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference. You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Here are your answers:

What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process

All of them where Asians are URM.

I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference.

They are the same subset.

You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Two answers for this one:

1. Every single college that asks for race on the common app (except the ones that state there are no racial preferences such as the UCs).
2. The Harvard data you love to quote so much, since that is the only real data available, is proof of it. Harvard is not the only college that works that way, as you know.

You know all this. I am certain of it. It just makes your narrative less attractive and shows its unfair side. Sorry about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the reason this person does not accept your point is that they are 1) Asian American who believes they are being discriminated against, and 2) believe “merit” = “test scores.” Prove me wrong.

Read the data. They’re higher rated on academic and extracurricular ratings. What do you mean by merit? The ability to throw a lacrosse ball?

If you don’t think Asian american applicants are disadvantaged in the process vis a vis all other groups then there is no point to trying to convince you.

This is obvious. I am amazed by the deniers.

The Harvard case exposed it, with actual data to back it up.

The most amazing thing was those Personality scores -- interviewers gave Asian Americans the same scores on average as other groups, but admissions staff who had never met them gave them way worse scores in order to penalize them.

What a shameful scam.

The question no one answers and people pretend they don’t understand, repeated again:

While it appears that way when you look at just Harvard and a single-digit number of other colleges, isn’t the exact opposite at 99% of all other colleges where Asian is an URM?

False premise, wrong facts, stupid question.

Well, when you present all those facts in such a detailed and thoughtful response, it is hard to argue.

Lol... face the truth man. Not a false premise, DEFINITELY NOT THE WRONG FACTS, and a question you don't want to answer truthfully.

DP. What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process? I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference. You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Here are your answers:

What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process

All of them where Asians are URM.

I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference.

They are the same subset.

You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Two answers for this one:

1. Every single college that asks for race on the common app (except the ones that state there are no racial preferences such as the UCs).
2. The Harvard data you love to quote so much, since that is the only real data available, is proof of it. Harvard is not the only college that works that way, as you know.

You know all this. I am certain of it. It just makes your narrative less attractive and shows its unfair side. Sorry about that.

To paraphrase: I have no proof other than my gut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: What do you think of the children of faculty and staff getting those preferences?

It's exceedingly unfair.

It is a method to recruit top scholars, though.

Typically the professors pay nothing or nominally for their kids to attend also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
They're doing this for a reason. Some say it's to make up for slavery. Others say it's because of something else. The question is, what is that reason?

Yes, some say that.

And they are all wrong.

The people who run colleges say it is for the reason I posted, which you conveniently ignore.

Wanting a representative sample based on an attribute doesn't make sense unless that attribute is meaningful. Can you follow that?

Yes I can. And colleges feel it is extremely meaningful, with a major reason being the one outlined above about HBCs. Can you follow that?

DP: and why is skin color such an important attribute?

Because systemic racism in the US made it an important attribute. African Americans, Hispanics, and Asian Americans have been historically disadvantaged in the US. AA were subject to slavery, Jim Crow laws, disadvantaged in education, subject to redlining, subject to police harassment, and subject to discrimination in hiring. Hispanics were not slaves, but experienced everything else. Asian Americans were not slaves, but experienced everything else and were also subject to concentration camps during WWII. Both Hispanics and Asian Americans were subject to immigration bans and difficulty in obtaining citizenship.

Those historic policies continue to have effect today. Failing to recognize that some kids have had a harder row to hoe because of their race is the right thing to do.

It is probably also the right thing to do to give some extra help to white kids who grow in poverty or who come from rural areas, as opposed to suburban/urban UMC and UC kids. But that's another argument.

Fascinating.

So, the best way to help Asian Americans who, as you say, have been subject to much injustice in the past...is to discriminate AGAINST them in college admissions?

This is beyond absurd. It's plain obscene.

And same argument would apply to Italian Americans, Irish Americans and others who were also mistreated.

[Anonymous]

No Dogs and Irish Need Apply

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the reason this person does not accept your point is that they are 1) Asian American who believes they are being discriminated against, and 2) believe “merit” = “test scores.” Prove me wrong.

Read the data. They’re higher rated on academic and extracurricular ratings. What do you mean by merit? The ability to throw a lacrosse ball?

If you don’t think Asian american applicants are disadvantaged in the process vis a vis all other groups then there is no point to trying to convince you.

This is obvious. I am amazed by the deniers.

The Harvard case exposed it, with actual data to back it up.

The most amazing thing was those Personality scores -- interviewers gave Asian Americans the same scores on average as other groups, but admissions staff who had never met them gave them way worse scores in order to penalize them.

What a shameful scam.

The question no one answers and people pretend they don’t understand, repeated again:

While it appears that way when you look at just Harvard and a single-digit number of other colleges, isn’t the exact opposite at 99% of all other colleges where Asian is an URM?

False premise, wrong facts, stupid question.

Well, when you present all those facts in such a detailed and thoughtful response, it is hard to argue.

Lol... face the truth man. Not a false premise, DEFINITELY NOT THE WRONG FACTS, and a question you don't want to answer truthfully.

DP. What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process? I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference. You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Here are your answers:

What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process

All of them where Asians are URM.

I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference.

They are the same subset.

You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Two answers for this one:

1. Every single college that asks for race on the common app (except the ones that state there are no racial preferences such as the UCs).
2. The Harvard data you love to quote so much, since that is the only real data available, is proof of it. Harvard is not the only college that works that way, as you know.

You know all this. I am certain of it. It just makes your narrative less attractive and shows its unfair side. Sorry about that.

To paraphrase: I have no proof other than my gut.

Lol, here is where your argument is shockingly weak.

If you do not accept what I have presented, then you can only take issue with one college - Harvard.

So I guess Yale, Princeton, Brown, Columbia, Stanford and MIT don't show bias against Asians.... since your "gut" is all you have to tell you that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To those of you who dislike the Harvard handles admissions:

How would you prefer they run their admissions process? What characteristics specifically would you prefer that they look at and how would they be measured and prioritized?

Would you prefer that the school have a different mission than it presently has? How would you word that mission in one sentence?

What are the ways, both in admissions and in the daily life of the school that you would like to see them change?

These are great questions and I hope they motivate discussion. I fear that if Harvard changed its admission policies to what some people here seem to want (scores and grades only, as far as I can tell from their comments), then Harvard would lose some of the attributes that make it so appealing in the first place. (Also, incidentally, admitting solely based on test scores and grades would kill every department except sciences, pre-med, and maybe Econ).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the reason this person does not accept your point is that they are 1) Asian American who believes they are being discriminated against, and 2) believe “merit” = “test scores.” Prove me wrong.

Read the data. They’re higher rated on academic and extracurricular ratings. What do you mean by merit? The ability to throw a lacrosse ball?

If you don’t think Asian american applicants are disadvantaged in the process vis a vis all other groups then there is no point to trying to convince you.

This is obvious. I am amazed by the deniers.

The Harvard case exposed it, with actual data to back it up.

The most amazing thing was those Personality scores -- interviewers gave Asian Americans the same scores on average as other groups, but admissions staff who had never met them gave them way worse scores in order to penalize them.

What a shameful scam.

The question no one answers and people pretend they don’t understand, repeated again:

While it appears that way when you look at just Harvard and a single-digit number of other colleges, isn’t the exact opposite at 99% of all other colleges where Asian is an URM?

False premise, wrong facts, stupid question.

Well, when you present all those facts in such a detailed and thoughtful response, it is hard to argue.

Lol... face the truth man. Not a false premise, DEFINITELY NOT THE WRONG FACTS, and a question you don't want to answer truthfully.

DP. What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process? I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference. You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Here are your answers:

What schools are known to provide a race preference for Asian students in the admissions process

All of them where Asians are URM.

I’m not taking about schools where Asians are under represented but schools where they receive a preference.

They are the same subset.

You seem to have the facts. If you can provide backup I would be interested to see that.

Two answers for this one:

1. Every single college that asks for race on the common app (except the ones that state there are no racial preferences such as the UCs).
2. The Harvard data you love to quote so much, since that is the only real data available, is proof of it. Harvard is not the only college that works that way, as you know.

You know all this. I am certain of it. It just makes your narrative less attractive and shows its unfair side. Sorry about that.

To paraphrase: I have no proof other than my gut.

Lol, here is where your argument is shockingly weak.

If you do not accept what I have presented, then you can only take issue with one college - Harvard.

So I guess Yale, Princeton, Brown, Columbia, Stanford and MIT don't show bias against Asians.... since your "gut" is all you have to tell you that.

I don’t see what you’ve shown. The numbers don’t tell you anything about HOW the numbers came to be.

As for my part, I feel pretty comfortable where I sit. The fact that Stanford and all the Ivy League schools filed an amicus brief supporting Harvard’s admissions process, which looks similar to their process, when combined with the fact that they see significant overlap in applicants and resulting demographics, is pretty good circumstantial evidence. Would you rather bet that Stanford looks like Harvard or that random college X gives a race preference to Asian applicants?

Even if I’m wrong, I’ve got one more school in my argument than you. You have zero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

These are great questions and I hope they motivate discussion. I fear that if Harvard changed its admission policies to what some people here seem to want (scores and grades only, as far as I can tell from their comments), then Harvard would lose some of the attributes that make it so appealing in the first place. (Also, incidentally, admitting solely based on test scores and grades would kill every department except sciences, pre-med, and maybe Econ).

Finally a proposal to actually improve college in this country. Think about how much education productivity would improve by getting rid of fluff majors. Goodbye ridiculous political horseshit in college. Maybe an additional benefit would be fewer damn lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

These are great questions and I hope they motivate discussion. I fear that if Harvard changed its admission policies to what some people here seem to want (scores and grades only, as far as I can tell from their comments), then Harvard would lose some of the attributes that make it so appealing in the first place. (Also, incidentally, admitting solely based on test scores and grades would kill every department except sciences, pre-med, and maybe Econ).

Finally a proposal to actually improve college in this country. Think about how much education productivity would improve by getting rid of fluff majors. Goodbye ridiculous political horseshit in college. Maybe an additional benefit would be fewer damn lawyers.

Oh spare me this garbage. Tell your kid they can only study those things you think are worth it. But the idea that you would willfully cut off areas of learning is just asinine and extremely arrogant.