Montgomery County zoning: Council wants to change zoning throughout the county to multi-family

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

As a general rule, "stuff I see through my windshield when I drive around" doesn't really count as data.

This does count as data, and it says you're wrong: https://gcaar.com/docs/default-source/montgomery-county-market-reports/mccc1218.pdf?sfvrsn=1a2af393_2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

Explain why prices are so high if there's a glut in the market, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

What information do you base this statement on?

Montgomery County has a housing shortage.

What's your evidence for that? It may have an affordable housing shortage in certain areas, but that's true of many expensive parts of the country.

This is about rental housing: https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RentalHousingSheet.pdf

This is about all housing (starts on p. 45): https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/MP_TrendsReport_final.pdf

And then, you know, there's the fact that housing costs are so high. Why are housing costs so high? Because demand exceeds supply.

That doesn't mean that ZTA 19-01 should be adopted. Please note that it includes zero provisions for affordable housing. The county would be better off increasing the number of MPDUs. ZTA 19-01 is a gimme for developers. They're great at marketing because they've figured out if they pretend to be concerned with affordable housing, that it gives Reimer et al some social justice cover to ram this through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

Explain why prices are so high if there's a glut in the market, please.

Some landlords prefer not to rent if they can't get a certain price. They want a high price and lock you into a lease. They're not pricing these things to move. They're pricing for longer term income and they want a solid tenant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's a link to a letter that came from Elrich that gives answers to some of the frequently asked questions.

https://montgomerycountymd.gov/exec/newsletter/2019/5-30.html

Here's one area that concerns me:

What are the proposed size limitations for these detached ADUs?

Council staff summaries of the PHED Committee discussions refer to limiting the size to the least of "50 percent of the gross floor area of the principal dwelling or 10 percent of the lot area or 1,200 square feet of gross-floor area." It isn't clear whether gross-floor area refers to the footprint of the principal dwelling or the gross-floor area of all levels of the principal dwelling. The detached ADU can be up to 20 feet (2 stories) high. There is also a provision to allow an ADU up to 32 feet long (i.e. a trailer or manufactured home).

If this passes, your neighbor can build or place a two story building in their backyard. Let's say you live on a lot that is slightly over a quarter of an acre. If the county doesn't increase the lot coverage, you can cover 30% of your property with structure. If you have a 2400 square foot house, you could build a two story structure of just shy of 1200 square feet in the backyard, which is a good sized house. NOT a tiny house. Sewer and power would need to run back there. While it seems so unlikely that people could afford to do that, investors can do it. And you pay the price when your property is devalued and your enjoyment of your property is compromised. If the county allows and encourages this by changing the zoning, this will happen and there's no way around it. As the current law stands, you can already set up a basement apartment for rent and you can convert a detached garage to an apartment. You can already get rental income from your property if you desire.

Another issue to consider is the council's assertion that relatives will be living in the backyard house. This cannot happen forever because people die eventually. Furthermore, there is absolutely no way for the county to regulate that. This has too much potential for ADU owners to build oversized structures that encroach on their neighbor's rights to enjoy their property. It is unethical and should be opposed.

Why would your property be devalued and your enjoyment of your property be compromised? Especially if you're living in a neighborhood with lots big enough to accommodate a 2400 sf house PLUS a 1199 sf house that both meet the setback and property coverage requirements.

As for "investors can do it" - the regulation requires that owners of ADUs must live in the principal residence.

Also, it's not true that as current law stands, you can already set up a basement apartment for rent. You can in some areas, but in most areas, you can't. Here's a link to the fact sheet: https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OZAH/Resources/Files/pdf/2015/class3accyapt_factsheet.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

Explain why prices are so high if there's a glut in the market, please.

Some landlords prefer not to rent if they can't get a certain price. They want a high price and lock you into a lease. They're not pricing these things to move. They're pricing for longer term income and they want a solid tenant.

You're telling me that housing costs are so high because landlords are pricing rental apartments to stay vacant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

As a general rule, "stuff I see through my windshield when I drive around" doesn't really count as data.

This does count as data, and it says you're wrong: https://gcaar.com/docs/default-source/montgomery-county-market-reports/mccc1218.pdf?sfvrsn=1a2af393_2

NO you did not just post a monthly report for December and claim it as useful data. You need several years at least worth of annual data or it is not useful information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

What information do you base this statement on?

Montgomery County has a housing shortage.

What's your evidence for that? It may have an affordable housing shortage in certain areas, but that's true of many expensive parts of the country.

This is about rental housing: https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RentalHousingSheet.pdf

This is about all housing (starts on p. 45): https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/MP_TrendsReport_final.pdf

And then, you know, there's the fact that housing costs are so high. Why are housing costs so high? Because demand exceeds supply.

That doesn't mean that ZTA 19-01 should be adopted. Please note that it includes zero provisions for affordable housing. The county would be better off increasing the number of MPDUs. ZTA 19-01 is a gimme for developers. They're great at marketing because they've figured out if they pretend to be concerned with affordable housing, that it gives Reimer et al some social justice cover to ram this through.

You know what makes housing more affordable? Increasing the supply of housing.

MPDUs are good. ADUs are good too. Let's do both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

As a general rule, "stuff I see through my windshield when I drive around" doesn't really count as data.

This does count as data, and it says you're wrong: https://gcaar.com/docs/default-source/montgomery-county-market-reports/mccc1218.pdf?sfvrsn=1a2af393_2

NO you did not just post a monthly report for December and claim it as useful data. You need several years at least worth of annual data or it is not useful information.

Nope, I didn't. The monthly report for December has the annual data for 2018. You can find the reports for previous years on the same website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

Explain why prices are so high if there's a glut in the market, please.

Some landlords prefer not to rent if they can't get a certain price. They want a high price and lock you into a lease. They're not pricing these things to move. They're pricing for longer term income and they want a solid tenant.

You're telling me that housing costs are so high because landlords are pricing rental apartments to stay vacant.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm explaining that they are willing to wait until they find a reliable tenant who can pay what they have decided their property is worth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

What information do you base this statement on?

Montgomery County has a housing shortage.

What's your evidence for that? It may have an affordable housing shortage in certain areas, but that's true of many expensive parts of the country.

This is about rental housing: https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RentalHousingSheet.pdf

This is about all housing (starts on p. 45): https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/MP_TrendsReport_final.pdf

And then, you know, there's the fact that housing costs are so high. Why are housing costs so high? Because demand exceeds supply.

That doesn't mean that ZTA 19-01 should be adopted. Please note that it includes zero provisions for affordable housing. The county would be better off increasing the number of MPDUs. ZTA 19-01 is a gimme for developers. They're great at marketing because they've figured out if they pretend to be concerned with affordable housing, that it gives Reimer et al some social justice cover to ram this through.

You know what makes housing more affordable? Increasing the supply of housing.

MPDUs are good. ADUs are good too. Let's do both.

ADUs already exist so we're already doing them. And using the term ADU for what is being proposed makes them sound innocuous when they're not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an odd proposal considering MoCo has a surplus of inventory of homes for sale and for rent. Rents are not rising fast here other than maybe in Bethesda. Most areas that do this have a housing shortage.

For MoCo this is likely to only benefit developers and not citizens. It is also likely to further depress areas that are at or past the beltway and sitting on tons of inventory. This would be hurtful to areas like Silver Spring / Wheaton, Rockville and up county.

This exactly!

Housing shortage? Explain why there are tons of empty apartments/condos/townhouses all over the county. I drive all around the county for work and there are available units everywhere. It is really difficult to sell a condo in the current housing market because there is such a glut of units for sale.

Explain why prices are so high if there's a glut in the market, please.

Some landlords prefer not to rent if they can't get a certain price. They want a high price and lock you into a lease. They're not pricing these things to move. They're pricing for longer term income and they want a solid tenant.

You're telling me that housing costs are so high because landlords are pricing rental apartments to stay vacant.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm explaining that they are willing to wait until they find a reliable tenant who can pay what they have decided their property is worth.

Two scenarios are possible, with your explanation.

Scenario 1: The landlord is setting the rent at market value and waiting for a reliable tenant. In a reasonable span of time, a tenant comes along who is willing and able to pay that rent, because it's the market-value rent.

Scenario 2: The landlord is setting the rent at above market value and waiting for a reliable tenant. But there are no reliable tenants who are willing and able to pay that rent, because it's above-market-value rent, and they can go somewhere else and pay market-value rent. So the apartment stays vacant.

Now there certainly are some dumb landlords, who would rather have an apartment stay vacant for a long time than reduce the rent they're asking for. And there are certainly some dumb tenants, who are willing to pay above-market-value rent (or can't figure out that it's above-market-value rent). But there is not an entire rental market worth of dumb landlords and dumb tenants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

ADUs already exist so we're already doing them. And using the term ADU for what is being proposed makes them sound innocuous when they're not.

You're right. Let's do more.

I'm don't understand how the term "ADU" (which stands for Accessory Dwelling Unit) sounds inappropriately innocuous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ADUs already exist so we're already doing them. And using the term ADU for what is being proposed makes them sound innocuous when they're not.

You're right. Let's do more.

I'm don't understand how the term "ADU" (which stands for Accessory Dwelling Unit) sounds inappropriately innocuous.

There is a difference between an attached ADU and a detached ADU. Both are already available but an attached ADU was more available in the county because you can convert your garage or your basement to an apartment. Detached ADUs (entirely separate living structure in your backyard or elsewhere on your property) could be established on larger lots in the county. Now Riemer wants detached ADUs throughout the county, on lots as small as 6,000 square feet. This will mean more power and sewer lines, 32 foot long trailers (yes, that is being discussed), two story houses in backyards and nobody on the council wants to talk about the details. They just want to ram it through. Their work is sloppy.