Jewish people: how do you view Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

It is possible to be a non Jewish grandchild of holocaust survivors.

Reform Judaism does not call him not a Jew, if he has been raised as a Jew.

But the movements that follow traditional Jewish law on this (C and O) do not consider him a Jew. To you traditional Jewish law, which existed for thousands of years before the holocaust is gross and wrong. Note, from their perspective they are NOT creating one less Jew - they are creating one less gentile who thinks they are a Jew.


Note, I know intermarried people whose children ARE Jews by Jewish law (IE the mother is Jewish, or the child was converted) who participate actively in Consevative shuls. And of course ones where the mother is not Jewish and neither the mother nor the child converted who participate actively in Reform shuls.

I do not know what community you attempted to participate in, and cannot say anything about it.

I personally do not feel I have standing to judge the determinations of status of religions to which I do not belong.

I also do not make major life decisions based on comments by anon people on DCUM.

But you do you, as the saying goes.

Thanks again - and please don't let me hear you complain about rates of intermarriage and children not being raised Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

You should understand that no one is saying you have to convert or even that anyone wants you to convert. If your family is being rejected, you're at the wrong synagogue. There are plenty who welcome intermarried couples and plenty more who welcome the children of such couples even if they limit the participation of the non-Jewish spouse. Very few people convert to Judaism. In general it's something you're raised with. If you don't want to do that for your child from the start, that is your choice, but you can't blame the community when you are the one cutting him off at the outset based on your own feelings of hurt. Again I ask you -- why should you expect a religion to count your child when you don't want to abide by the religious requirements? Would you join a church that required baptism and be angry they refused to count your child if you didn't baptize him? Would you go to a Catholic church and be angry they wouldn't give your child communion if he isn't Catholic?

And I know a lot of intermarried families who raise their children Jewish. I have two cousins in their 30s whose mother was Catholic but who raised her children Jewish although she did not convert herself. One cousin married a Jew, one married a non-Jew. None of their children will be considered Jewish unless they convert them and they seem fine with that and are raising them as Jews anyway, in a very liberal Reform temple that tracks patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent. Another cousin married a woman from Japan and has not raised his kids Jewish. My own sister married a man who was raised semi-Jewish but whose mother was not Jewish. Because it's matrilineal, my nephews are Jewish. I have two close friends who married non-Jews. In one case the non-Jewish spouse (a man) converted after marriage; in the other the non-Jewish spouse (a woman) did not convert but they are raising the kids Jewish and the mother attends synagogue more frequently than I (Jewish by birth) do!

You seem very hurt by the religious requirements. But they are not a judgment of you personally, or of your child. A requirement is a requirement and you can follow it or not. If you are not willing to adhere to religious requirements, then you can hardly blame the religion for not counting your child among them. By the very definition of the religion he doesn't count. That doesn't mean he doesn't count as a human being or that there is anything wrong with him! He is just not Jewish. And that's okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

You should understand that no one is saying you have to convert or even that anyone wants you to convert. If your family is being rejected, you're at the wrong synagogue. There are plenty who welcome intermarried couples and plenty more who welcome the children of such couples even if they limit the participation of the non-Jewish spouse. Very few people convert to Judaism. In general it's something you're raised with. If you don't want to do that for your child from the start, that is your choice, but you can't blame the community when you are the one cutting him off at the outset based on your own feelings of hurt. Again I ask you -- why should you expect a religion to count your child when you don't want to abide by the religious requirements? Would you join a church that required baptism and be angry they refused to count your child if you didn't baptize him? Would you go to a Catholic church and be angry they wouldn't give your child communion if he isn't Catholic?

And I know a lot of intermarried families who raise their children Jewish. I have two cousins in their 30s whose mother was Catholic but who raised her children Jewish although she did not convert herself. One cousin married a Jew, one married a non-Jew. None of their children will be considered Jewish unless they convert them and they seem fine with that and are raising them as Jews anyway, in a very liberal Reform temple that tracks patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent. Another cousin married a woman from Japan and has not raised his kids Jewish. My own sister married a man who was raised semi-Jewish but whose mother was not Jewish. Because it's matrilineal, my nephews are Jewish. I have two close friends who married non-Jews. In one case the non-Jewish spouse (a man) converted after marriage; in the other the non-Jewish spouse (a woman) did not convert but they are raising the kids Jewish and the mother attends synagogue more frequently than I (Jewish by birth) do!

You seem very hurt by the religious requirements. But they are not a judgment of you personally, or of your child. A requirement is a requirement and you can follow it or not. If you are not willing to adhere to religious requirements, then you can hardly blame the religion for not counting your child among them. By the very definition of the religion he doesn't count. That doesn't mean he doesn't count as a human being or that there is anything wrong with him! He is just not Jewish. And that's okay.

This is just so, so offensive. But, thanks for helping me work through my feelings and determine not to raise my child Jewish or encourage it in any way. G-d bless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

You should understand that no one is saying you have to convert or even that anyone wants you to convert. If your family is being rejected, you're at the wrong synagogue. There are plenty who welcome intermarried couples and plenty more who welcome the children of such couples even if they limit the participation of the non-Jewish spouse. Very few people convert to Judaism. In general it's something you're raised with. If you don't want to do that for your child from the start, that is your choice, but you can't blame the community when you are the one cutting him off at the outset based on your own feelings of hurt. Again I ask you -- why should you expect a religion to count your child when you don't want to abide by the religious requirements? Would you join a church that required baptism and be angry they refused to count your child if you didn't baptize him? Would you go to a Catholic church and be angry they wouldn't give your child communion if he isn't Catholic?

And I know a lot of intermarried families who raise their children Jewish. I have two cousins in their 30s whose mother was Catholic but who raised her children Jewish although she did not convert herself. One cousin married a Jew, one married a non-Jew. None of their children will be considered Jewish unless they convert them and they seem fine with that and are raising them as Jews anyway, in a very liberal Reform temple that tracks patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent. Another cousin married a woman from Japan and has not raised his kids Jewish. My own sister married a man who was raised semi-Jewish but whose mother was not Jewish. Because it's matrilineal, my nephews are Jewish. I have two close friends who married non-Jews. In one case the non-Jewish spouse (a man) converted after marriage; in the other the non-Jewish spouse (a woman) did not convert but they are raising the kids Jewish and the mother attends synagogue more frequently than I (Jewish by birth) do!

You seem very hurt by the religious requirements. But they are not a judgment of you personally, or of your child. A requirement is a requirement and you can follow it or not. If you are not willing to adhere to religious requirements, then you can hardly blame the religion for not counting your child among them. By the very definition of the religion he doesn't count. That doesn't mean he doesn't count as a human being or that there is anything wrong with him! He is just not Jewish. And that's okay.

This is just so, so offensive. But, thanks for helping me work through my feelings and determine not to raise my child Jewish or encourage it in any way. G-d bless.

But why is it offensive? It's a statement of fact, not a judgment. I truly don't understand why it is offensive. There is nothing wrong with not being Jewish. There is not something better about being Jewish. If you want him so badly to be considered Jewish than you have to make him Jewish. And if you don't want to, there is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with him not being Jewish. Seriously -- I don't get it -- what is so offensive about a religion or a culture having religious requirements? Judaism is hardly unique in that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

You should understand that no one is saying you have to convert or even that anyone wants you to convert. If your family is being rejected, you're at the wrong synagogue. There are plenty who welcome intermarried couples and plenty more who welcome the children of such couples even if they limit the participation of the non-Jewish spouse. Very few people convert to Judaism. In general it's something you're raised with. If you don't want to do that for your child from the start, that is your choice, but you can't blame the community when you are the one cutting him off at the outset based on your own feelings of hurt. Again I ask you -- why should you expect a religion to count your child when you don't want to abide by the religious requirements? Would you join a church that required baptism and be angry they refused to count your child if you didn't baptize him? Would you go to a Catholic church and be angry they wouldn't give your child communion if he isn't Catholic?

And I know a lot of intermarried families who raise their children Jewish. I have two cousins in their 30s whose mother was Catholic but who raised her children Jewish although she did not convert herself. One cousin married a Jew, one married a non-Jew. None of their children will be considered Jewish unless they convert them and they seem fine with that and are raising them as Jews anyway, in a very liberal Reform temple that tracks patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent. Another cousin married a woman from Japan and has not raised his kids Jewish. My own sister married a man who was raised semi-Jewish but whose mother was not Jewish. Because it's matrilineal, my nephews are Jewish. I have two close friends who married non-Jews. In one case the non-Jewish spouse (a man) converted after marriage; in the other the non-Jewish spouse (a woman) did not convert but they are raising the kids Jewish and the mother attends synagogue more frequently than I (Jewish by birth) do!

You seem very hurt by the religious requirements. But they are not a judgment of you personally, or of your child. A requirement is a requirement and you can follow it or not. If you are not willing to adhere to religious requirements, then you can hardly blame the religion for not counting your child among them. By the very definition of the religion he doesn't count. That doesn't mean he doesn't count as a human being or that there is anything wrong with him! He is just not Jewish. And that's okay.

This is just so, so offensive. But, thanks for helping me work through my feelings and determine not to raise my child Jewish or encourage it in any way. G-d bless.

But why is it offensive? It's a statement of fact, not a judgment. I truly don't understand why it is offensive. There is nothing wrong with not being Jewish. There is not something better about being Jewish. If you want him so badly to be considered Jewish than you have to make him Jewish. And if you don't want to, there is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with him not being Jewish. Seriously -- I don't get it -- what is so offensive about a religion or a culture having religious requirements? Judaism is hardly unique in that.

Done discussing your mysoginistic beliefs. Bye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

You should understand that no one is saying you have to convert or even that anyone wants you to convert. If your family is being rejected, you're at the wrong synagogue. There are plenty who welcome intermarried couples and plenty more who welcome the children of such couples even if they limit the participation of the non-Jewish spouse. Very few people convert to Judaism. In general it's something you're raised with. If you don't want to do that for your child from the start, that is your choice, but you can't blame the community when you are the one cutting him off at the outset based on your own feelings of hurt. Again I ask you -- why should you expect a religion to count your child when you don't want to abide by the religious requirements? Would you join a church that required baptism and be angry they refused to count your child if you didn't baptize him? Would you go to a Catholic church and be angry they wouldn't give your child communion if he isn't Catholic?

And I know a lot of intermarried families who raise their children Jewish. I have two cousins in their 30s whose mother was Catholic but who raised her children Jewish although she did not convert herself. One cousin married a Jew, one married a non-Jew. None of their children will be considered Jewish unless they convert them and they seem fine with that and are raising them as Jews anyway, in a very liberal Reform temple that tracks patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent. Another cousin married a woman from Japan and has not raised his kids Jewish. My own sister married a man who was raised semi-Jewish but whose mother was not Jewish. Because it's matrilineal, my nephews are Jewish. I have two close friends who married non-Jews. In one case the non-Jewish spouse (a man) converted after marriage; in the other the non-Jewish spouse (a woman) did not convert but they are raising the kids Jewish and the mother attends synagogue more frequently than I (Jewish by birth) do!

You seem very hurt by the religious requirements. But they are not a judgment of you personally, or of your child. A requirement is a requirement and you can follow it or not. If you are not willing to adhere to religious requirements, then you can hardly blame the religion for not counting your child among them. By the very definition of the religion he doesn't count. That doesn't mean he doesn't count as a human being or that there is anything wrong with him! He is just not Jewish. And that's okay.

This is just so, so offensive. But, thanks for helping me work through my feelings and determine not to raise my child Jewish or encourage it in any way. G-d bless.

NP. I’m a reform Jew who would absolutely call your child as Jewish, as would any member of the reform community. Please know that there are spaces where your child will be welcomed along with the whole family.

I live in a small city in the Midwest where our congregation is the only synagogue for a hundred miles. Last weekend we had a leadership meeting where we realized that must of the people around the table were married to people who weren’t born Jewish (including me). We are starting programming to make sure people in intermarriage know that their families will be welcomed in our synagogue—partly because we know the message they’ve been getting in other places is “you’re not a Jewish family.”

FWIW, we are all very active in our synagogue community and are committed to raising our children Jewish...whole also including the other side of our families! We celebrate Christmas with my ILs because that’s an important part of my DH’s family of origin. My children know it’s not “our” holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

That's your choice. Religiously a child not born to a Jewish mother is not Jewish unless he is converted (a simple process for a baby). Raising him in the traditions would require accepting this view. I don't really see how one can realistically raise a child in a tradition that isn't one's own anyway. My non-Jewish relatives converted, either formally or de factor, before having children, and participate as fully in the Jewish community as my Jewish-born mother (which granted is not a lot -- Mom doesn't have much use for religion!). If you don't want to do that, that's totally fine and no one wants to force you, but equally they're not going to accept your kids as Jewish because they're not Jewish and not being raised as Jewish. And that is fine. The idea isn't to "pass down traditions," it's for Judaism to continue and flourish, and that will only be done by and through Jews.

My "non-Jewish" kid is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. To call him "not a Jew" is just gross and wrong. But yeah, thanks again for confirming that the prejudice/disdain I feel whenever I try to take some initiative to participate is real. Congratulations on creating one less Jew. So now I will teach him that he is not Jew, and we will guilt-free celebrate Christmas and Easter, and I'll stop making the effort to celebrate Passover.

Happy?

I'm sorry you seem to feel that Jews or Jewish communities you have interacted with have insulted you. But the fact is that Judaism has a religious as well as cultural and genetic component and just being the grandchild of Holocaust survivors does not make one Jewish. I know a grandchild of Holocaust survivors who converted to evangelical Christianity. She doesn't consider herself Jewish and nor would any rabbi I know. Judaism requires actions and beliefs and yes, there are religious requirements, just as some Christian faiths don't consider a person truly of that faith unless they've been baptized. If I wanted to belong or have my child belong to that faith I would adhere to its religious requirements. If I didn't adhere to them I would understand that they would not regard me as one of their own.

No one is saying that you, personally, have to convert in order to raise your child Jewish. (No one is saying you have to raise your child Jewish at all.) But if you want to raise him as Jewish, then yes, there are some bare minimum things you must do and one of them is to make him Jewish according to the religious law. And that means having him converted if he was not born to a Jewish mother. It's not some thing against you personally. This applies to non-Jewish children adopted into Jewish families, or sometimes even to children born of donor eggs -- it's matrilineal descent and it can be overcome, but at base it is what it is. No one is arguing these laws are rational but they are a very longstanding part of the religion.

If what you really want to do is raise your son in two traditions, of course you can do as you like, but good intentions don't equal religious requirement.

There isn't some competition to see how many Jews there can be. Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. A child who is not really Jewish is simply that -- not really Jewish. And if you want to raise him Jewish but not have him converted, you can do that if you go to a Reform temple, but he will run into problems later in life if he wants to emigrate to Israel or marry a Jewish partner and cannot show that he is Jewish by religious law. Think of it as the difference between formal or common-law marriage. The common-law spouses may be just as committed to each other but in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriage, they have no legal standing as spouses. That is all this is -- for a young child it can be a formality.

Again, this attitude and structure pretty much guarantees that a child from intermarriage will generally not be raised Jewish. Do you think I'm going to feel welcomed in learning about Judaism and getting to the point where I might convert, when my family is rejected from the outset? Or that my child will develop the Jewish identity that would lead him to convert later on, since I'm not going to even support the traditions? You're setting up a scenario where it has to be all or nothing: you pressure your sons on pain of family excommunication to in turn pressure their girlfriends to convert. That may work with a tiny minority of people, but the overall result will be intermarriage with children losing their Jewish heritage. You're free to have this attitude, but you should understand where it leads.

You should understand that no one is saying you have to convert or even that anyone wants you to convert. If your family is being rejected, you're at the wrong synagogue. There are plenty who welcome intermarried couples and plenty more who welcome the children of such couples even if they limit the participation of the non-Jewish spouse. Very few people convert to Judaism. In general it's something you're raised with. If you don't want to do that for your child from the start, that is your choice, but you can't blame the community when you are the one cutting him off at the outset based on your own feelings of hurt. Again I ask you -- why should you expect a religion to count your child when you don't want to abide by the religious requirements? Would you join a church that required baptism and be angry they refused to count your child if you didn't baptize him? Would you go to a Catholic church and be angry they wouldn't give your child communion if he isn't Catholic?

And I know a lot of intermarried families who raise their children Jewish. I have two cousins in their 30s whose mother was Catholic but who raised her children Jewish although she did not convert herself. One cousin married a Jew, one married a non-Jew. None of their children will be considered Jewish unless they convert them and they seem fine with that and are raising them as Jews anyway, in a very liberal Reform temple that tracks patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent. Another cousin married a woman from Japan and has not raised his kids Jewish. My own sister married a man who was raised semi-Jewish but whose mother was not Jewish. Because it's matrilineal, my nephews are Jewish. I have two close friends who married non-Jews. In one case the non-Jewish spouse (a man) converted after marriage; in the other the non-Jewish spouse (a woman) did not convert but they are raising the kids Jewish and the mother attends synagogue more frequently than I (Jewish by birth) do!

You seem very hurt by the religious requirements. But they are not a judgment of you personally, or of your child. A requirement is a requirement and you can follow it or not. If you are not willing to adhere to religious requirements, then you can hardly blame the religion for not counting your child among them. By the very definition of the religion he doesn't count. That doesn't mean he doesn't count as a human being or that there is anything wrong with him! He is just not Jewish. And that's okay.

This is just so, so offensive. But, thanks for helping me work through my feelings and determine not to raise my child Jewish or encourage it in any way. G-d bless.

But why is it offensive? It's a statement of fact, not a judgment. I truly don't understand why it is offensive. There is nothing wrong with not being Jewish. There is not something better about being Jewish. If you want him so badly to be considered Jewish than you have to make him Jewish. And if you don't want to, there is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with him not being Jewish. Seriously -- I don't get it -- what is so offensive about a religion or a culture having religious requirements? Judaism is hardly unique in that.

Done discussing your mysoginistic beliefs. Bye.

Well, bye, but just to clarify then -- your dispute is not with the idea of requirements but the matrilineal aspect in particular, then?

Because as many on here have said, the Reform movement frequently doesn't enforce that. So if you really want your kid to be Jewish and that's your issue, you should be going to a Reform shul. They are usually very welcoming. (But you won't, because apparently you'd rather nurse whatever wrong has been done to you in the past.)

If you are just so deeply offended at the very concept of a religion having requirements that are rooted in antiquity and conflict with modern-day sensibilities -- even if not practiced by the particular movement you affiliate with -- then I guess you are making the right decision. Although most Christian sects are hardly going to be any different in that regard, even the particulars may be different. There is always a tension between, say, what the Bible says literally and how many people view it with modern eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

according to traditional Jewish law, which determines Jewish status for Orthodox and Conservative Jews, your child is NOT Jewish. Within Reform, and to a lesser degree Conservative, we have had extensive discussion of the impact of different approaches to intermarriage and which are better or worse for increasing the number of children raised as Jews.

Your position is understandable.

But as a matter of numbers, the Jewish movement that is growing fastest is Orthodoxy. Its not at all clear that altering Jewish law for the purpose of making unconverted intermarried couples more likely to raise their kids as Jewish is actually a winning strategy.

I can tell you that this attitude almost definitively is to thank for one fewer child being raised in Jewish traditions .... so congratulations?

I’m not the poster above but he/she is correct. Statistics show that the generations following intermarriage are less observant.

What’s the difference between Donald Trump and a reform Jew? Trump has Jewish grandchildren. And yes, Ivanka is Jewish because she converted.

We all want to be accepting and loving and supportive. However, when it comes to this topic, feelings aren’t fact.

Based on my experience, the generations following intermarriage are less observant in large part due to prejudice against intermarriage.

I respect your perspective. In my experience, it’s a combination of the reform movement and its leftism/social justice platform that has replaced religious teachings PLUS the prevalence of interfaith marriages/non observant parents. There’s barely any Hebrew spoken during recent services I’ve attended at reform synagogues. Kids are being dragged to Hebrew school two or three times a week and learning nothing. Services are rabbis using the bulky pulpit to bash The President and push a liberal agenda. Where are the biblical teachings? Where are our traditions? This is why reform Jews aren’t going to stay Jewish. There’s nothing binding them to it. It’s become a social club.

[Anonymous]

And to the PP who is the daughter in law of Holocaust survivors, are they alive and able to speak to you about this? Their perspective would be interesting.

I am Jewish so I do not have the experience of being ostracized by my religion. But, if it were me, and it was important to me, I would push and shove my way on to every synagogue committee and light Shabbat candles every evening and show my family and community my full commitment to Judaism. How can you blame us for being wary? If you know our history you should understand this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people here are not getting the point. She's not being asked to suppress her own identity. She is saying she is no longer going to practice Christianity or identify as a Christian. She is changing her identity. Many young people to not identify with a particular religion. Part of being an adult is forging one's own identify. A parent's identity is a parent's identity. Judaism is a tribe. We have people of all skin tones in our tribe. We have members of our tribe that have joined from other religions. We have members our tribe that were cut-off from mainstream Judaism and have different traditions as a result. All are valid members of our tribe. But our tribe is a small one. And we lose many members of our tribe every year due to our graying population, antisemitism, and, in some cases, intermarriage. It is difficult for a members of a majority culture to comprehend why passing our traditions on to our children is important - it is the continuation of our tribe. It's not selfish, it's not meant suppress anyone - it's a consequence of millennia of persecution, and existing as a minority. This woman's daughter is adult and she is free to make her own choices. For Jews, the fear is always that there is children will leave Judaism and become Christians (or another faith), meaning that the Jewish end of their family's history ends with them - that the line between generations is extinguished. It's painful. And it's not the same as when a Lutheran becomes a Baptist.

Speaking as the non-Jewish wife ... if you really want to continue to pass down traditions, then you need to be more accepting of intermarriage. I've been told many times that my child "is not Jewish." So do you think I'm going to make much effort to raise him in those traditions? No, I am not.

according to traditional Jewish law, which determines Jewish status for Orthodox and Conservative Jews, your child is NOT Jewish. Within Reform, and to a lesser degree Conservative, we have had extensive discussion of the impact of different approaches to intermarriage and which are better or worse for increasing the number of children raised as Jews.

Your position is understandable.

But as a matter of numbers, the Jewish movement that is growing fastest is Orthodoxy. Its not at all clear that altering Jewish law for the purpose of making unconverted intermarried couples more likely to raise their kids as Jewish is actually a winning strategy.

I can tell you that this attitude almost definitively is to thank for one fewer child being raised in Jewish traditions .... so congratulations?

I’m not the poster above but he/she is correct. Statistics show that the generations following intermarriage are less observant.

What’s the difference between Donald Trump and a reform Jew? Trump has Jewish grandchildren. And yes, Ivanka is Jewish because she converted.

We all want to be accepting and loving and supportive. However, when it comes to this topic, feelings aren’t fact.

Based on my experience, the generations following intermarriage are less observant in large part due to prejudice against intermarriage.

I respect your perspective. In my experience, it’s a combination of the reform movement and its leftism/social justice platform that has replaced religious teachings PLUS the prevalence of interfaith marriages/non observant parents. There’s barely any Hebrew spoken during recent services I’ve attended at reform synagogues. Kids are being dragged to Hebrew school two or three times a week and learning nothing. Services are rabbis using the bulky pulpit to bash The President and push a liberal agenda. Where are the biblical teachings? Where are our traditions? This is why reform Jews aren’t going to stay Jewish. There’s nothing binding them to it. It’s become a social club.

I’m the PP who is raising an interfaith child in a reform synagogue. I was also raised reform. I’ve been a member of three congregations (the one in which I grew up; one in DC for ten years, and one in my current area). I have visited several other congregations. Your experiences haven’t been mine.

There is less Hebrew than in Conservative or Orthodox congregations, but it’s certainly not gone. Traditional prayers are still chanted in traditional ways (albeit maybe with more gender-inclusive language). Sermons are pertinent to the Torah portion read that week—in Hebrew and then translated into English by the way—and while they might have a social justice bent where appropriate, there has never been any stumping or president-bashing. There are educational programs not only for children but also for adults. All are well-attended. There are also social events that help bond people to each other and entice them to come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.
Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her