Jewish people: how do you view Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I’m not the poster above but he/she is correct. Statistics show that the generations following intermarriage are less observant.

What’s the difference between Donald Trump and a reform Jew? Trump has Jewish grandchildren. And yes, Ivanka is Jewish because she converted.

We all want to be accepting and loving and supportive. However, when it comes to this topic, feelings aren’t fact.

I would suggest that children being less observant is more the march of time than the fault of the intermarriage.
This is inevitable as the world and everyone in it is becoming more secular.

Perhaps someone could elaborate more on how the data for the statistic was gathered. I ask because of my interest in statistics and how they are used to spread lies and enforce prejudice.

My take is that conversion does not mean you will be accepted. A woman raised outside the religion will want more boundaries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

I don’t know that and find this logic misogynistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.
Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her

+1. OP says he’s handsome and she’s madly in love. This is the price.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.

Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her

+1. OP says he’s handsome and she’s madly in love. This is the price.

Implicit in your theory is that women are stupid and incapable of making a choice borne of logic which is uber-offensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.

Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her

+1. OP says he’s handsome and she’s madly in love. This is the price.

Implicit in your theory is that women are stupid and incapable of making a choice borne of logic which is uber-offensive.

No, that’s not it at all, keep trying. Implicit is that love is very powerful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.

Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her

+1. OP says he’s handsome and she’s madly in love. This is the price.

Implicit in your theory is that women are stupid and incapable of making a choice borne of logic which is uber-offensive.

No, that’s not it at all, keep trying. Implicit is that love is very powerful.

I don't have to try, you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Love is powerful. But people make choices in the haze of it all, anyway. Moreover, it sounds like the groom here was very clear from the beginning. She made a choice. You don't respect it and think she was swayed because he's handsome and incapable of rational thought. That gross and straight out of a 1950's musical. This isn't Pajama Game: it's 2019.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.

Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her

+1. OP says he’s handsome and she’s madly in love. This is the price.

Implicit in your theory is that women are stupid and incapable of making a choice borne of logic which is uber-offensive.

No, that’s not it at all, keep trying. Implicit is that love is very powerful.

I don't have to try, you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Love is powerful. But people make choices in the haze of it all, anyway. Moreover, it sounds like the groom here was very clear from the beginning. She made a choice. You don't respect it and think she was swayed because he's handsome and incapable of rational thought. That gross and straight out of a 1950's musical. This isn't Pajama Game: it's 2019.

You’re in denial about the pressure your faith is putting on this woman. That’s gross. You’d be upset if your child was pressured to become Catholic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there is a lot of bias in the contention that the family is asking her to change her identity. A person entering into a relationship is entitled to set boundaries. It sounds like the groom, here, indicated that he is Jewish, wants a Jewish spouse, and wants to raise Jewish children. The bride was aware of these factors, indicated she would voluntarily not identify as a Christian, but identify as a Jew, prior to marriage, and that she would agree to raise her children as Jews. To suggest that she is being made to suppress anything is pretty sexist. She is not the property of her parents or their belief system. She is an independent person who made her own choices. She could have said, I have a Christian identity and it is important to me. She did not. She made a valid choice. She can also change her mind. Given the high rates of divorce in this country, it's very common that religious instruction of children comes up in the context of marriage. Sometimes an angry spouse will try to sabotage the religious education of the child as "revenge."

You keep saying her conversation is voluntary. But we both know he’s left her no choice.

What's he going to do, drag her to the altar? She doesn't have to marry him. She is choosing to.

I do see a lot of pressure here
How long have they been together?
Perhaps a longer courtship is what is needed.

Many think changing a religion is not about changing identify, but here a lot is being asked of her

+1. OP says he’s handsome and she’s madly in love. This is the price.

Implicit in your theory is that women are stupid and incapable of making a choice borne of logic which is uber-offensive.

No, that’s not it at all, keep trying. Implicit is that love is very powerful.

I don't have to try, you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Love is powerful. But people make choices in the haze of it all, anyway. Moreover, it sounds like the groom here was very clear from the beginning. She made a choice. You don't respect it and think she was swayed because he's handsome and incapable of rational thought. That gross and straight out of a 1950's musical. This isn't Pajama Game: it's 2019.

This isn’t Hunger Games, believe or be banished. People should be allowed to keep their own identities without pressure. You keep insisting there’s no pressure—I and apparently others here think that’s laughable.

[Anonymous]

After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This isn’t Hunger Games, believe or be banished. People should be allowed to keep their own identities without pressure. You keep insisting there’s no pressure—I and apparently others here think that’s laughable.

People should be allowed to marry whom they wish, and to set any conditions they prefer. If I were dating a gentile, and we were considering marriage, I would have the right to condition that on conversion. I would presume she would then make whatever decision she feels is right for her. I do not have an obligation to marry a gentile who has not converted to Judaism. You are saying I would not have that right.

[Anonymous]

I am sorry that your life has been so unkind to you that you have to attack a small faith, its precepts, and apparently your own children who rejected the religious education you gave or didn't give to them such that they as adults or choosing a different path. I am sure that this is painful and explains your behavior on this forum. Rejection, shame, etc. are powerful feelings. Not every one is kind in this world. I am sorry for whatever trauma you have experienced. Or if your children have chosen to be a different faith than you and you are unhappy. Part of parenting is learning to put your ego aside and allow your children to make different choices as adults. Good luck on your struggle with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This isn’t Hunger Games, believe or be banished. People should be allowed to keep their own identities without pressure. You keep insisting there’s no pressure—I and apparently others here think that’s laughable.

People should be allowed to marry whom they wish, and to set any conditions they prefer. If I were dating a gentile, and we were considering marriage, I would have the right to condition that on conversion. I would presume she would then make whatever decision she feels is right for her. I do not have an obligation to marry a gentile who has not converted to Judaism. You are saying I would not have that right.

Sure, you have the right to put pressure on someone (because we need to call it what it is), but that doesn’t make your behavior a good thing.

Tell us that you wouldn’t be outraged if your kid’s fiancé demanded that your kid convert to Christianity or Islam. In those circumstances, you wouldn’t respect your kid’s decision to leave Judaism. Instead all you’d see is pressure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am sorry that your life has been so unkind to you that you have to attack a small faith, its precepts, and apparently your own children who rejected the religious education you gave or didn't give to them such that they as adults or choosing a different path. I am sure that this is painful and explains your behavior on this forum. Rejection, shame, etc. are powerful feelings. Not every one is kind in this world. I am sorry for whatever trauma you have experienced. Or if your children have chosen to be a different faith than you and you are unhappy. Part of parenting is learning to put your ego aside and allow your children to make different choices as adults. Good luck on your struggle with this.

Omg. Are you for real with this immature bs? And fwiw, my kids have kept my faith, although it’s totally irrelevant to this thread.

We’re all very curious to know, however, what you’d do if your kids rejected Judaism. Can you tell us whether you’d give them free choice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am sorry that your life has been so unkind to you that you have to attack a small faith, its precepts, and apparently your own children who rejected the religious education you gave or didn't give to them such that they as adults or choosing a different path. I am sure that this is painful and explains your behavior on this forum. Rejection, shame, etc. are powerful feelings. Not every one is kind in this world. I am sorry for whatever trauma you have experienced. Or if your children have chosen to be a different faith than you and you are unhappy. Part of parenting is learning to put your ego aside and allow your children to make different choices as adults. Good luck on your struggle with this.

This bizarre rant is the post of somebody who knows that, when it comes to defending pressuring somebody, they don’t have a leg to stand on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am sorry that your life has been so unkind to you that you have to attack a small faith, its precepts, and apparently your own children who rejected the religious education you gave or didn't give to them such that they as adults or choosing a different path. I am sure that this is painful and explains your behavior on this forum. Rejection, shame, etc. are powerful feelings. Not every one is kind in this world. I am sorry for whatever trauma you have experienced. Or if your children have chosen to be a different faith than you and you are unhappy. Part of parenting is learning to put your ego aside and allow your children to make different choices as adults. Good luck on your struggle with this.

+100