Organized Religion seems harmful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to the minister -- your last few communications have been with a different poster.

Getting back to your #4 - are you saying you regularly see "deathbed conversions"? Maybe not always to an established religion, but from people who have said they were atheists who when close to death say they they now believe in "god"?

If so, I'd imagine this would be a common occurrence in Hospice and would think there'd be a lot written about it.
I didn't find anything in a cursory google search. Could you direct me to information on this?

Thanks

We were just talking about exactly this at my Hospice Center. There are four Ministers working at the center. One of them is a more traditional protestant minister. One is a Catholic Nun. One is an AME Pastor. And then me. I am an Interfaith Minister. I am one they call for anyone who isn't mainline Protestant or Catholic. I am trained to minister to people of all faiths. I by default, get all the Atheists (along with a lot of people from Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist faiths). To me, it's all the same.

I don't see what most people would describe as "deathbed conversions". Not in the sense of people asking for my help to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior". I have literally never had that happen. However, most of the people I spend time with at the end of life seem to become more spiritual as they approach their final days. Maybe not religious, but certainly interested in talking about after-life, benevolent God, forgiveness, etc.

BUT - and I think this is really important - Keep in mind that I am a minister. I visit everyone who comes into our center regardless of faith at least a couple of times. I introduce myself, do a quick spiritual assessment, talk with the family, and let them know there is a minister on call any time they might need us. I can't visit every patient every day. We have 50 patients in our center and between 30 and 50 under Home Hospice Care. A lot of my visits are at the request of the family or the patient. If a patient has asked to see me or has asked that I remain bedside, chances are they are already thinking about religious or spiritual issues. A person who is not interested in talking about religion is not likely asking to see a minister.

I guess my answer would be that in my experience even atheists who had no interest in talking with me when they were admitted to Hospice often ask for me when death becomes more of a reality. But it's less about a "conversion" and more a need to express renewed interest in spirituality. Really it's not that different than the Catholic who hasn't been to Mass in many years - They will often ask me to give them Holy Eucharist. Or they'll ask for a Priest to come in and give them Last Rites.

My discussion with my fellow Minsters led us to a couple of possible conclusions - The most obvious is that an atheist who was raised in a religious family finds comfort in the familiarity of religious sacrament. Another is that the atheist who was raised in an evangelical church starts to question. And that's scary. I know how powerful those images of hell are. I was raised Southern Baptist. The patient may be seeking that "Blessed Assurance". But more often, I see patients who begin to experience and feel things they can't explain. They aren't interested in hearing me read the Bible or preach. But they do want to talk about God.

Thanks for this look into hospice life. Please tell me, regarding my original question -- what do you know about writings on atheists regularly becoming more religious or spiritual in hospice.

[Anonymous]

That's because it is.

[Anonymous]

I'm an atheist and I haven't posted on this thread before. I was raised in a very religious Catholic household, but am one of the atheists who found an enormous amount of peace when I acknowledged my atheism.

I could see it being entirely possible that I'd ask for Catholic last rites in hospice. I still say the rosary regularly because I find it a good form of meditation. I believe ritual is important and calming for many people. It makes sense to me that at the end of my life, I will ask for the rituals that started the beginning of my life. I doubt I'll believe any more than I do now (or, truth be told, I did as a child though I was terrified of admitting that), but I could see how it would look that way from the outside.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

NP. You are a seriously fragile snowflake if you think any of what the minister wrote amounts to condescension. Your outrage seems feigned. Meanwhile you ignore--or probably authored--some seriously abusive posts here calling religion "bs stories" and "nonsense," not to mention the whole premise of this thread. You win the Hypocrite of the Day prize, maybe Hypocrite of the Week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

NP. You are a seriously fragile snowflake if you think any of what the minister wrote amounts to condescension. Your outrage seems feigned. Meanwhile you ignore--or probably authored--some seriously abusive posts here calling religion "bs stories" and "nonsense," not to mention the whole premise of this thread. You win the Hypocrite of the Day prize, maybe Hypocrite of the Week.

Different atheist poster here -- I can see both points of view. Sometimes religious people are so accustomed to being in the mainstream that they don't realize when they appear to be condescending to non-religious people. Also, I can see how the atheist responder could be fed up with this type of response and be a bit to short with someone who was inadvertantly insensitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

NP. You are a seriously fragile snowflake if you think any of what the minister wrote amounts to condescension. Your outrage seems feigned. Meanwhile you ignore--or probably authored--some seriously abusive posts here calling religion "bs stories" and "nonsense," not to mention the whole premise of this thread. You win the Hypocrite of the Day prize, maybe Hypocrite of the Week.

Different atheist poster here -- I can see both points of view. Sometimes religious people are so accustomed to being in the mainstream that they don't realize when they appear to be condescending to non-religious people. Also, I can see how the atheist responder could be fed up with this type of response and be a bit to short with someone who was inadvertantly insensitive.

I am the PP minister and that's exactly why I apologized. Rather than take the attack personally and assume the worst, I'm going to remember that tone is very difficult to read in an internet post. If the pp took my post as condescending, perhaps I could have worded it better. It's also important to remember that we really have no idea what is going on in someone's life. Maybe the pp feels attacked and judged in her real life by overly religious people. That would make anyone a little defensive.

It's all love. And we are all on our own paths. My prayer/wish is just that we learn to be kinder to each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

NP. You are a seriously fragile snowflake if you think any of what the minister wrote amounts to condescension. Your outrage seems feigned. Meanwhile you ignore--or probably authored--some seriously abusive posts here calling religion "bs stories" and "nonsense," not to mention the whole premise of this thread. You win the Hypocrite of the Day prize, maybe Hypocrite of the Week.

Different atheist poster here -- I can see both points of view. Sometimes religious people are so accustomed to being in the mainstream that they don't realize when they appear to be condescending to non-religious people. Also, I can see how the atheist responder could be fed up with this type of response and be a bit to short with someone who was inadvertantly insensitive.

The minister was even careful to use language like "what a spiritual person might call..." and "I think". I really don't see how anybody even half-way sincere could take offense at what somebody else is being extra careful to frame as their own views.

[Anonymous]

I am the atheist PP who posted above about Catholic last rites. I don't think that the minister was condescending.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read through all of the responses, but what is the point of churches? I don't attend, but I will tell you that churches in my town are one of the main sources of charity for our local poor. The set up Places for homeless to sleep, they feed them, doing clothing drives for people trying to get back into the work force, help abused women, and together they organize a network of people to help refugee families that are being resettled in the area.

I don't give a damn if the stories they believe are myths or not. I'm in awe of leadership who are so compelled to help others every day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read through all of the responses, but what is the point of churches? I don't attend, but I will tell you that churches in my town are one of the main sources of charity for our local poor. The set up Places for homeless to sleep, they feed them, doing clothing drives for people trying to get back into the work force, help abused women, and together they organize a network of people to help refugee families that are being resettled in the area.

I don't give a damn if the stories they believe are myths or not. I'm in awe of leadership who are so compelled to help others every day.

I don't give a damn either, unless the churches are telling the people that they're helping that they really should believe in those myths to show their gratefulness for the help and to ensure a place in heaven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me how atheists can scoff at the Christian belief in miracles, but maintain that the entire physical world popped into existence from nothingness. Christians believe a God who made the world can intervene to perform a miracle. Indeed, we see the entire creation as a miracle. Atheists, on the other hand, marvel at the natural world and still maintain that it came into existence contrary to all the natural processes they worship, i.e. something from nothing, reversal of entropy, etc. The things that had to have happened for the universe to begin without a creator can never be observed in nature.

I am an atheist who knows other atheists and I've never heard an atheist say that the world popped into existence from nothing. I've heard atheists say they don't know how the world came into existence -- that's what I say -- and that scientists are trying to find out.

To me it seems weird that Christians believe that God made the world and then, at some much later date, God sent his son for the express purpose of dying for all the people on earth from that time forward could go to heaven, if they believed in him. They believe this even knowing that many people living on earth since the savior supposedly came 2000 years ago never even heard of Jesus and thus have no chance to go to the heaven promised by their god.

But if you don't believe in a creator, then all the natural world had to just come into existence by itself. There's no way around it. Most atheists I've heard or read scoff at people who question the Big Bang theory because that's science. But the Big Bang theory posits that everything just ... popped into existence.

The rest of your post suggests that it's not that you don't believe in God, you just don't approve of how He does things. There are ways to understand Christian belief if you give it an honest attempt to understand. The Bible says a lot of things that you're probably not aware of that answer these questions, including that those who truly seek after God will find Jesus.

This sounds like, if after trying to understand Christian belief it still doesn't make sense to you, then you haven't made an honest attempt to understand. If that's the case, then everyone making an honest attempt will become Christian.

It sounds a lot like seeing the light and assuming that there is only one light to see and if you can't see it, it's your fault - you haven't been trying hard enough or doing it right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

NP. You are a seriously fragile snowflake if you think any of what the minister wrote amounts to condescension. Your outrage seems feigned. Meanwhile you ignore--or probably authored--some seriously abusive posts here calling religion "bs stories" and "nonsense," not to mention the whole premise of this thread. You win the Hypocrite of the Day prize, maybe Hypocrite of the Week.

Different atheist poster here -- I can see both points of view. Sometimes religious people are so accustomed to being in the mainstream that they don't realize when they appear to be condescending to non-religious people. Also, I can see how the atheist responder could be fed up with this type of response and be a bit to short with someone who was inadvertantly insensitive.

The minister was even careful to use language like "what a spiritual person might call..." and "I think". I really don't see how anybody even half-way sincere could take offense at what somebody else is being extra careful to frame as their own views.

I am more than half-way sincere and can see how someone could take offense. I do take offense at immediate pp's put-down of previous pp's viewpoint. There is room for much misunderstanding of religious viewpoints. In the US, we have worked over the years to be understanding and accepting of people of other religions. Now I think we could use some work at being more understanding and accepting of people of no religion. We have always been around. Now there are more of us and more are openly identifying as non-religious. We tend to be upstanding and law-abiding citizens and even if we weren't, we deserve to be treated with the same respect as people who hold a god belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist and I haven't posted on this thread before. I was raised in a very religious Catholic household, but am one of the atheists who found an enormous amount of peace when I acknowledged my atheism.

I could see it being entirely possible that I'd ask for Catholic last rites in hospice. I still say the rosary regularly because I find it a good form of meditation. I believe ritual is important and calming for many people. It makes sense to me that at the end of my life, I will ask for the rituals that started the beginning of my life. I doubt I'll believe any more than I do now (or, truth be told, I did as a child though I was terrified of admitting that), but I could see how it would look that way from the outside.

Also an atheist, and while I don't say the rosary and doubt I'll want the last rites, I do like to go to church on the big days -- easter, Xmas, good friday for the ceremony and the music, and for the celebration or contemplation. This surprises or confuses some of my atheist friends, but others understand and appreciate these aspects of their childhood religions as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The minister was even careful to use language like "what a spiritual person might call..." and "I think". I really don't see how anybody even half-way sincere could take offense at what somebody else is being extra careful to frame as their own views.

I am more than half-way sincere and can see how someone could take offense. I do take offense at immediate pp's put-down of previous pp's viewpoint. There is room for much misunderstanding of religious viewpoints. In the US, we have worked over the years to be understanding and accepting of people of other religions. Now I think we could use some work at being more understanding and accepting of people of no religion. We have always been around. Now there are more of us and more are openly identifying as non-religious. We tend to be upstanding and law-abiding citizens and even if we weren't, we deserve to be treated with the same respect as people who hold a god belief.

Of course, and your desire for respect is completely understandable and valid. I too think atheists deserve more respect.

But atheist pp is asserting that a religious person shouldnt say "I think..." and "religious people think..." because even telling you what they think is somehow offensive. On a thread claiming that organized religion is harmful and scripture is bs, no less.

If you want respect, you have to give respect. That goes for judgemental religious people and it goes for DCUM's atheists as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The minister was even careful to use language like "what a spiritual person might call..." and "I think". I really don't see how anybody even half-way sincere could take offense at what somebody else is being extra careful to frame as their own views.

I am more than half-way sincere and can see how someone could take offense. I do take offense at immediate pp's put-down of previous pp's viewpoint. There is room for much misunderstanding of religious viewpoints. In the US, we have worked over the years to be understanding and accepting of people of other religions. Now I think we could use some work at being more understanding and accepting of people of no religion. We have always been around. Now there are more of us and more are openly identifying as non-religious. We tend to be upstanding and law-abiding citizens and even if we weren't, we deserve to be treated with the same respect as people who hold a god belief.

Of course, and your desire for respect is completely understandable and valid. I too think atheists deserve more respect.

But atheist pp is asserting that a religious person shouldnt say "I think..." and "religious people think..." because even telling you what they think is somehow offensive. On a thread claiming that organized religion is harmful and scripture is bs, no less.

If you want respect, you have to give respect. That goes for judgemental religious people and it goes for DCUM's atheists as well.

I don't think atheist pp said that. Reading back, it was an interpretation someone made about atheist pp's reaction to the minister.

I do have a problem with the terminology "DCUM's atheists" - as if we are all alike and need to be chastised. Imagine talking about "DCUM's African Americans" or "DCUM's gays" that way.