Organized Religion seems harmful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OMG - please learn how to reply and post properly, people. I have a headache trying to catch up.

I'm the PP who found the minister's posts to be condescending and presumptuous. Her whole post was written through the lens of someone raised in a very religious environment and who cannot understand what it is like to never have had religion. All of the talk of faith, deathbed, etc. is really off-base and out of place. "Returning to our Source", creation, faith, etc.

The minister should really just stick to what she knows instead of making false assumptions and generalizations about others. I don't make any blanket statements about what she believes or doesn't believe. If she were truly respectful, so would she.

Honestly this seems like a massive overreaction. I wonder if that's because the minister was so respectful, and that threatens you? She was so careful to use words like "I think" and "I believe" as others have oiint d out. She even writes things like. "An atheist would explain this with science" which you did not put in bold.

If you're the pp making statements about organized religion being harmful, scripture being nonsense stories, and so on, then I respectfully suggest that you are making blanket statements that are much broader and disrespectful than anything you accuse the minister of.

I have posted on other threads (and maybe this one?) that I believe religion is net negative. I haven't posted much else on this thread. Sorry if you feel that is disrespectful but it's not a personal statement about you, an individual, and your beliefs. It's my observation (as an outsider) generally about religions over the course of mankind. The minister was making generalizations for all atheists/all people, as individuals and their experiences. And it was off-base for me. It's understandable because she grew up in a deeply religious family. All of her references tie back to religion/faith/etc. None of that works in my framework. Not just the terminology.

I get that she was trying to be polite about it, but she was still trying to connect dots that don't need to be connected for some people. Presuming that those dots NEED to be connected. And I did find her tone condescending - she wrote as if she had it all figured out, but clearly doesn't. Which is fine - none of us do. But don't write as if you do.

And I didn't write it but back on page 8, 13:30 captured a lot of my thoughts on this.

that was me -- happy to be of assistance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to the minister -- your last few communications have been with a different poster.

Getting back to your #4 - are you saying you regularly see "deathbed conversions"? Maybe not always to an established religion, but from people who have said they were atheists who when close to death say they they now believe in "god"?

If so, I'd imagine this would be a common occurrence in Hospice and would think there'd be a lot written about it.
I didn't find anything in a cursory google search. Could you direct me to information on this?

Thanks

We were just talking about exactly this at my Hospice Center. There are four Ministers working at the center. One of them is a more traditional protestant minister. One is a Catholic Nun. One is an AME Pastor. And then me. I am an Interfaith Minister. I am one they call for anyone who isn't mainline Protestant or Catholic. I am trained to minister to people of all faiths. I by default, get all the Atheists (along with a lot of people from Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist faiths). To me, it's all the same.

I don't see what most people would describe as "deathbed conversions". Not in the sense of people asking for my help to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior". I have literally never had that happen. However, most of the people I spend time with at the end of life seem to become more spiritual as they approach their final days. Maybe not religious, but certainly interested in talking about after-life, benevolent God, forgiveness, etc.

BUT - and I think this is really important - Keep in mind that I am a minister. I visit everyone who comes into our center regardless of faith at least a couple of times. I introduce myself, do a quick spiritual assessment, talk with the family, and let them know there is a minister on call any time they might need us. I can't visit every patient every day. We have 50 patients in our center and between 30 and 50 under Home Hospice Care. A lot of my visits are at the request of the family or the patient. If a patient has asked to see me or has asked that I remain bedside, chances are they are already thinking about religious or spiritual issues. A person who is not interested in talking about religion is not likely asking to see a minister.

I guess my answer would be that in my experience even atheists who had no interest in talking with me when they were admitted to Hospice often ask for me when death becomes more of a reality. But it's less about a "conversion" and more a need to express renewed interest in spirituality. Really it's not that different than the Catholic who hasn't been to Mass in many years - They will often ask me to give them Holy Eucharist. Or they'll ask for a Priest to come in and give them Last Rites.

My discussion with my fellow Minsters led us to a couple of possible conclusions - The most obvious is that an atheist who was raised in a religious family finds comfort in the familiarity of religious sacrament. Another is that the atheist who was raised in an evangelical church starts to question. And that's scary. I know how powerful those images of hell are. I was raised Southern Baptist. The patient may be seeking that "Blessed Assurance". But more often, I see patients who begin to experience and feel things they can't explain. They aren't interested in hearing me read the Bible or preach. But they do want to talk about God.

Thanks for this look into hospice life. Please tell me, regarding my original question -- what do you know about writings on atheists regularly becoming more religious or spiritual in hospice.

Good afternoon. Minster here. I'm honestly a little afraid to answer. I don't want to come across as condescending or as a "know it all" because that's not the person I ever want to be. And I don't mean that in a snarky way. I hold the belief that none of us really have the answers and none of us likely ever will. We are all on our own paths and I don't view mine as more sacred than anyone else's. I was really trying to be clear about that. I became a minister after many of years of religious and spiritual struggle. I can't in integrity say that I was ever truly atheist. Maybe at one point agnostic. I worked in churches for several years. I became a Hospice Minister after I walked with my best friend through her diagnosis of cancer, her treatments, and finally her death. I struggled with trying to understand why a loving God would take someone like my friend. She was so good. She spent her life in service to others. She was not perfect, but she lived her life with compassion and love for others. She was a New Thought (Unity) Minster who truly loved everyone. I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice.

I feel strongly that our life experiences shape our beliefs. For the Christian to insist that Jesus is the only way ignores the very real effect of family and culture on religion. If I had been born in Saudi Arabia, I would likely be Muslim for example. We don't escape those early life experiences easily. Most people are the religion they are because of their parents.

How does that answer your question? People often (not always) become religious and/or spiritual when faced with a life crisis. Or, if they are already religious, they change their religious beliefs or reject religion altogether. Death certainly qualifies as a life crisis both for the patient and for the family. I'm not sure if you are asking for peer reviewed studies on religion and spirituality at death. There have been many, many books written on the subject. I'm not going to insult your intelligence by providing a list of google results.

My role at Hospice is not to "save" anyone. First, I don't believe people need to be saved. I believe every single person on this planet is inherently good. And second, that's not what dying people need. And my primary role is to hold a space for a peaceful transition. People who are at peace spiritually, die better. We know this as fact. That's why I have a job. We see less terminal restlessness, less struggle, and better pain control with people who are at peace spiritually. An atheist who is completely at peace with his belief isn't struggling with issues of God and spirituality and therefore is unlikely to ask for a minister. However, I have never spent time with a dying patient (and I have been with hundreds and hundreds of them) who did not want to talk about some aspect of spirituality in the weeks and months before death. It's not about religion or Bible verses or salvation. It's a need to make sense of a life. It's a life review process that always seems to lead to spiritual discussion. It's a need for discussion of big picture. Of relationships. Of forgiveness and closure. And almost always of some type of "God".

Again, I'm simply sharing my personal (really important, these are my own) experiences as someone who is with dying patients almost every single day. The patient I was with about two hours ago was Buddhist. He and his friend wanted me to share meditations on impermanence. Many Buddhists would consider themselves atheists. However, are they really? If you think about the beliefs of the Mahayana Buddhist, for example, Spirit is a huge part of that tradition. In sharing a meditation on impermanence, we are acknowledging that the body dies but the spirit remains. We are acknowledging a path towards goodness through repeated lifetimes. He may not believe in a God as in a man with a beard sitting on a throne judging sin. But I would argue that God for him is the process of rebirth. (*I would like to add that I am not an expert in Buddhism. As an interfaith minister I need to know a little about a lot of faith paths.)

I really, really hope I don't sound condescending this time. I would ask the readers to understand that too often we lose tone in internet discussion. I love to talk about spirituality and religion and apologize for taking so long to respond. Obviously, my patients and their families take priority while I am at work. Also, please remember that I am not interested in writing a peer reviewed paper on atheists and death. There are many and you can find them with a simple google search. I was simply sharing my personal experiences working with the dying. Spirituality, God, religion, forgiveness, life-meaning, etc are always issues that come up with any patient well enough to talk.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I sense that you think and writer faster than I do, so I won't attempt to match your effort and may respond in bits and pieces. You don't sound condescending. You sound like a very sincere person who is trying not to be condescending and is not sure of having the right tools.

All atheists are not alike anymore than all religious people are. Some of us, including me, do not relate to the word "spirituality." I've heard it many times, of course, and used it in my religious upbringing, but when I thought about it, I didn't know what it meant. It's a sense I don't have. So speaking broadly about "spirituality" as if it's something everyone understands and experiences, like hunger or excitement, inadvertently leaves out atheists like me. We don't have it; we don't miss it; we don't seek it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OMG - please learn how to reply and post properly, people. I have a headache trying to catch up.

I'm the PP who found the minister's posts to be condescending and presumptuous. Her whole post was written through the lens of someone raised in a very religious environment and who cannot understand what it is like to never have had religion. All of the talk of faith, deathbed, etc. is really off-base and out of place. "Returning to our Source", creation, faith, etc.

The minister should really just stick to what she knows instead of making false assumptions and generalizations about others. I don't make any blanket statements about what she believes or doesn't believe. If she were truly respectful, so would she.

Honestly this seems like a massive overreaction. I wonder if that's because the minister was so respectful, and that threatens you? She was so careful to use words like "I think" and "I believe" as others have oiint d out. She even writes things like. "An atheist would explain this with science" which you did not put in bold.

If you're the pp making statements about organized religion being harmful, scripture being nonsense stories, and so on, then I respectfully suggest that you are making blanket statements that are much broader and disrespectful than anything you accuse the minister of.

I have posted on other threads (and maybe this one?) that I believe religion is net negative. I haven't posted much else on this thread. Sorry if you feel that is disrespectful but it's not a personal statement about you, an individual, and your beliefs. It's my observation (as an outsider) generally about religions over the course of mankind. The minister was making generalizations for all atheists/all people, as individuals and their experiences. And it was off-base for me. It's understandable because she grew up in a deeply religious family. All of her references tie back to religion/faith/etc. None of that works in my framework. Not just the terminology.

I get that she was trying to be polite about it, but she was still trying to connect dots that don't need to be connected for some people. Presuming that those dots NEED to be connected. And I did find her tone condescending - she wrote as if she had it all figured out, but clearly doesn't. Which is fine - none of us do. But don't write as if you do.

So it's ok for you to write that religion is a net negative, and it's ok for you to make sweeping generalizations about why somebody believes (according to you, it's because she grew up in a "deeply religious family").

But it's wrong for the minister to state her beliefs, even if she couches them in "I believe" or "religious people believe" language, because your sensitive eyes apparently can't read this sort of thing. Uh, ok.

How about, if her views don't resonate with you, you simply state that? "I don't agree." See, that's simple to say. But instead, you accuse her of all sorts of nefarious motives that frankly don't seem to be there and toss out words like "condescension." And while you're at it, stop pretending that I'm offended by the rants of some rando atheist like you--I'm not, what I'm actually offended by are your sleazeball character assassination tactics here, instead of you trying to honestly and openly debate her.

She commented. I commented. She commented. We're moving on, but you still seem very angry. "Sleazeball character assassination tactics"?? Okey dokey! You sound like the atheist hater.

Not an atheist hater--I have atheist friends. I'm a hater of ad hominems and unwarranted personal attacks, like you're up to here. Does that help?

The minister is much nicer than I am. I'm willing to call you out on your sleazy personal attacks. We're both sincere.

Again, tell her you disagree and why. But stop already with the character assassination of somebody who's clearly sincere and trying very hard. it doesn't reflect well on you.

[Anonymous]

^^^ Should add, the minister is a different religion from me. Your style of character assassibation vs. actually debating her is obvious to a broad audience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Should add, the minister is a different religion from me. Your style of character assassibation vs. actually debating her is obvious to a broad audience.

Please speak for yourself. An individual on an internet forum isn't privy to what is obvious to a "broad audience" and it seems out of character for a person who doesn't like adhominem attacks to accuse someone of "sleazeball character assassination tactics" and "sleazy personal attacks."

[Anonymous]

to the minister - regarding atheists finding spirituality near death. I have done a google search as you suggested and came up with nothing, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

I'm not too surprised, because I think that if it were a known phenomenon, it would make it into the general press, because it's the type of thing people have said for centuries without scientific evidence.

Also, if you see it almost every day, as you said in an earlier post, I'd assume others in your position would see it too and it would be a topic of conversation among hospice chaplains - and a hot topic for a journal article.

Can you lead me to the type of journal that would deal with a topic like this. e.g., journals that hospital and hospice chaplains are likely to read and publish in? I'd like to see what they are writing about.

[Anonymous]

To the minister, in an earlier post your said "I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice. "

Another person - with a different personality or different life experience- might, at a moment like that, feel very comforted by the insight that there is no god -that the good person dying and the bad person succeeding at theft are both random events, not overseen by a higher power.

Neither person can know that they are correct, but they both have found peace, each in their own way.

[Anonymous]

This is the "Religion" sub-forum.

Atheism is NOT a religion in any way, shape or form.

Therefore atheism is not a relevant topic for discussion here. It has as much place here as a discussion about sports, car repair, or real estate.

Posts advocating or discussing atheism, or poking fun or ridiculing religion are hateful and insensitive, and should be erased.

Forum members who are here for sincere and genuine discussions of religious topics should not have to face the constant bickering of atheist trolls intent on disrupting things they don't like sheerly for mean spirited pleasure.

Report these posts whenever you see them, and demand that Jeff Steele delete them. Plenty of other posts are deleted in other sub-forums here because people complain, so expect the same privilege, and use it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the minister, in an earlier post your said "I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice. "

Another person - with a different personality or different life experience- might, at a moment like that, feel very comforted by the insight that there is no god -that the good person dying and the bad person succeeding at theft are both random events, not overseen by a higher power.

Neither person can know that they are correct, but they both have found peace, each in their own way.

Did the minister say this? If so, that's kind of the wrong way to look at it. We're supposed to love our enemies, and the Bible says that God is patient toward us because He wants us to come to Him. Isn't it possible that God would sometimes take good people early to be with Him and leave bad people so that they could repent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the "Religion" sub-forum.

Atheism is NOT a religion in any way, shape or form.

Therefore atheism is not a relevant topic for discussion here. It has as much place here as a discussion about sports, car repair, or real estate.

Posts advocating or discussing atheism, or poking fun or ridiculing religion are hateful and insensitive, and should be erased.

Forum members who are here for sincere and genuine discussions of religious topics should not have to face the constant bickering of atheist trolls intent on disrupting things they don't like sheerly for mean spirited pleasure.

Report these posts whenever you see them, and demand that Jeff Steele delete them. Plenty of other posts are deleted in other sub-forums here because people complain, so expect the same privilege, and use it.

Don't forget to stop the atheist haters from starting provoking threads that pull in people from Recent Topics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the "Religion" sub-forum.

Atheism is NOT a religion in any way, shape or form.

Therefore atheism is not a relevant topic for discussion here. It has as much place here as a discussion about sports, car repair, or real estate.

Posts advocating or discussing atheism, or poking fun or ridiculing religion are hateful and insensitive, and should be erased.

Forum members who are here for sincere and genuine discussions of religious topics should not have to face the constant bickering of atheist trolls intent on disrupting things they don't like sheerly for mean spirited pleasure.

Report these posts whenever you see them, and demand that Jeff Steele delete them. Plenty of other posts are deleted in other sub-forums here because people complain, so expect the same privilege, and use it.

Don't forget to stop the atheist haters from starting provoking threads that pull in people from Recent Topics.

p.s. Jeff should just remove Religion from Recent Topics. Separate church from state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the minister, in an earlier post your said "I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice. "

Another person - with a different personality or different life experience- might, at a moment like that, feel very comforted by the insight that there is no god -that the good person dying and the bad person succeeding at theft are both random events, not overseen by a higher power.

Neither person can know that they are correct, but they both have found peace, each in their own way.

Did the minister say this? If so, that's kind of the wrong way to look at it. We're supposed to love our enemies, and the Bible says that God is patient toward us because He wants us to come to Him. Isn't it possible that God would sometimes take good people early to be with Him and leave bad people so that they could repent?

I am the minister. My struggle was with in trying to reconcile my friend's death with my own idea of fairness and justice. It has nothing to do with loving my enemies. I am human. And I am honest. My dear friend spent her life in service to others. The seeming unfairness of her death hit me really hard. As a minister who has counseled many hundreds of people through grief and loss, I know the "right answer". That doesn't change the very raw, human emotions of anger and grief after a loss. My feelings during that period were not wrong, they were human. If I ever lose touch with that side of me, I'll know it's time to leave Hospice work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the minister, in an earlier post your said "I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice. "

Another person - with a different personality or different life experience- might, at a moment like that, feel very comforted by the insight that there is no god -that the good person dying and the bad person succeeding at theft are both random events, not overseen by a higher power.

Neither person can know that they are correct, but they both have found peace, each in their own way.

Did the minister say this? If so, that's kind of the wrong way to look at it. We're supposed to love our enemies, and the Bible says that God is patient toward us because He wants us to come to Him. Isn't it possible that God would sometimes take good people early to be with Him and leave bad people so that they could repent?

I am the minister. My struggle was with in trying to reconcile my friend's death with my own idea of fairness and justice. It has nothing to do with loving my enemies. I am human. And I am honest. My dear friend spent her life in service to others. The seeming unfairness of her death hit me really hard. As a minister who has counseled many hundreds of people through grief and loss, I know the "right answer". That doesn't change the very raw, human emotions of anger and grief after a loss. My feelings during that period were not wrong, they were human. If I ever lose touch with that side of me, I'll know it's time to leave Hospice work.

I found a reddit conversation among atheist hospice nurses that was very helpful. Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/1oxp8j/is_there_a_place_for_an_atheist_in_palliative_care/

and here's one comment: "I am a Hospice nurse case manager from Ohio and a proud non closeted atheist. You can have compassion for people while not imposing your beliefs on them just as i feel everyone should. Being a caring person has nothing to do with religious belief. As a nurse it is imperative not to blur these lines.Caring, compassion and making people comfortable during the hardest time in their lives as well as their families lives has nothing to do with your ability to pray with them. You became a nurse for a reason and wouldn't be able to make it in this profession without compassion. Have faith in yourself. (pun intended)"

I also found an abstract of a peer-reviewed article on atheist end-of-life preferences: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17803415

Here's an excerpt: "...participants view of a good death was expanded to include respect for nonbelief and the withholding of prayer or other references to God. Strong preference for physician-assisted suicide and evidence-based medical interventions were central themes from participants."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the minister, in an earlier post your said "I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice. "

Another person - with a different personality or different life experience- might, at a moment like that, feel very comforted by the insight that there is no god -that the good person dying and the bad person succeeding at theft are both random events, not overseen by a higher power.

Neither person can know that they are correct, but they both have found peace, each in their own way.

Did the minister say this? If so, that's kind of the wrong way to look at it. We're supposed to love our enemies, and the Bible says that God is patient toward us because He wants us to come to Him. Isn't it possible that God would sometimes take good people early to be with Him and leave bad people so that they could repent?

I am the minister. My struggle was with in trying to reconcile my friend's death with my own idea of fairness and justice. It has nothing to do with loving my enemies. I am human. And I am honest. My dear friend spent her life in service to others. The seeming unfairness of her death hit me really hard. As a minister who has counseled many hundreds of people through grief and loss, I know the "right answer". That doesn't change the very raw, human emotions of anger and grief after a loss. My feelings during that period were not wrong, they were human. If I ever lose touch with that side of me, I'll know it's time to leave Hospice work.

Fair enough. But the Bible teaches that God is about mercy and love as much as fairness and justice, and that when those who love Him die, they go to a much better place to spend eternity with Him. I have lost loved ones close to me, too, so it's not like I don't understand grieving. But I believe this is why the Bible talks so much about the blessed hope we have in Christ, so that we can rejoice that a loved one has gone to be with the LORD, even while we mourn his or her passing. It's meant to be a comfort, and I believe it is if we let it be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the minister, in an earlier post your said "I could not figure out why God would take her and leave the guy that broke into my church and stole the computer, for example. That struggle is what ultimately led me to work for Hopsice. "

Another person - with a different personality or different life experience- might, at a moment like that, feel very comforted by the insight that there is no god -that the good person dying and the bad person succeeding at theft are both random events, not overseen by a higher power.

Neither person can know that they are correct, but they both have found peace, each in their own way.

Did the minister say this? If so, that's kind of the wrong way to look at it. We're supposed to love our enemies, and the Bible says that God is patient toward us because He wants us to come to Him. Isn't it possible that God would sometimes take good people early to be with Him and leave bad people so that they could repent?

I am the minister. My struggle was with in trying to reconcile my friend's death with my own idea of fairness and justice. It has nothing to do with loving my enemies. I am human. And I am honest. My dear friend spent her life in service to others. The seeming unfairness of her death hit me really hard. As a minister who has counseled many hundreds of people through grief and loss, I know the "right answer". That doesn't change the very raw, human emotions of anger and grief after a loss. My feelings during that period were not wrong, they were human. If I ever lose touch with that side of me, I'll know it's time to leave Hospice work.

Fair enough. But the Bible teaches that God is about mercy and love as much as fairness and justice, and that when those who love Him die, they go to a much better place to spend eternity with Him. I have lost loved ones close to me, too, so it's not like I don't understand grieving. But I believe this is why the Bible talks so much about the blessed hope we have in Christ, so that we can rejoice that a loved one has gone to be with the LORD, even while we mourn his or her passing. It's meant to be a comfort, and I believe it is if we let it be.

It seems to me that the two of you are talking about 2 different perceptions of Christianity. One is strictly biblical and the other is not. You both find comfort in your faith but don't have exactly the same beliefs or reactions to grieving.

I'd say that's OK - and normal - and human. But I guess it's also human to expect everyone to think a certain way - the best way -- the way YOU think, even though there is little evidence of people agreeing about religion. If they did, there wouldn't be so many denominations of Christianity.