Kids want a Christmas tree; we are not Christian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus was not born in December. The tree was brought into the house and decorated way before Christians ever laid eyes on it.
Evergreen was brought in during winter because people missed seeing green (still do), it smelled good and to feed the animals. The winter solstice (holiday) was celebrated during that time. It was also a time to take a break from working the land since it was covered with snow, and rather cook, eat, sing, dance, decorate house, celebrate life and thank whatever god you worshiped if any.
Now Christians came in and suddenly tree became Christmas tree and Jesus was born on 24th or 25th.
I'd get them the tree since it's religious if you make it into one.

Um. What Christians believe Jesus was born on December 25? The feast of Christ / the Jesus holy day / Christmas became part of the liturgical cycle so that his life -- from the anticipation of his arrival to his return to heaven (and the beginning of the new Israel) could be celebrated over the course of a year.

+1. A day needed to be chosen because nobody knew Jesus' real birthdate. So they chose that day. To Christians, what PP is writing isn't old news.

If it helps, we Christians also understand that there was probably no snow around the manger in Bethlehem, even though there are some lovely carols about snow.

Also, wasn't it Queen Victoria's German husband, Albert, who brought the tree custom to Britain about 150 years ago? The tree is lovely, but it doesn't have a specific religious or sacramental role. I'm happy to share it with non-Christians!

Yes, but most biblical scholars agree that the birthdate was between February and April, not really near December at all. The *ONLY* reason that the church moved it to the current date was to compete directly with the Pagan Winter Solstice celebrations and to try and lure non-believers to the religion. They also started coopting various symbols of the winter solstice celebrations as a part of their traditions. That doesn't make them Christian symbols; it makes them shared symbols. But a Christmas tree is not exclusively a Christian symbol, and in fact, in the US, the Christmas tree is a ubiquitous secular symbol of the winter holidays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus was not born in December. The tree was brought into the house and decorated way before Christians ever laid eyes on it.
Evergreen was brought in during winter because people missed seeing green (still do), it smelled good and to feed the animals. The winter solstice (holiday) was celebrated during that time. It was also a time to take a break from working the land since it was covered with snow, and rather cook, eat, sing, dance, decorate house, celebrate life and thank whatever god you worshiped if any.
Now Christians came in and suddenly tree became Christmas tree and Jesus was born on 24th or 25th.
I'd get them the tree since it's religious if you make it into one.

Um. What Christians believe Jesus was born on December 25? The feast of Christ / the Jesus holy day / Christmas became part of the liturgical cycle so that his life -- from the anticipation of his arrival to his return to heaven (and the beginning of the new Israel) could be celebrated over the course of a year.

+1. A day needed to be chosen because nobody knew Jesus' real birthdate. So they chose that day. To Christians, what PP is writing isn't old news.

If it helps, we Christians also understand that there was probably no snow around the manger in Bethlehem, even though there are some lovely carols about snow.

Also, wasn't it Queen Victoria's German husband, Albert, who brought the tree custom to Britain about 150 years ago? The tree is lovely, but it doesn't have a specific religious or sacramental role. I'm happy to share it with non-Christians!

Yes, but most biblical scholars agree that the birthdate was between February and April, not really near December at all. The *ONLY* reason that the church moved it to the current date was to compete directly with the Pagan Winter Solstice celebrations and to try and lure non-believers to the religion. They also started coopting various symbols of the winter solstice celebrations as a part of their traditions. That doesn't make them Christian symbols; it makes them shared symbols. But a Christmas tree is not exclusively a Christian symbol, and in fact, in the US, the Christmas tree is a ubiquitous secular symbol of the winter holidays.

Was Christmas ever even moved? I doubt it was observed until the powers-that-be desigated the already popular solstice, sol invictus, etc. events that had been celebrated during that time for centuries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus was not born in December. The tree was brought into the house and decorated way before Christians ever laid eyes on it.
Evergreen was brought in during winter because people missed seeing green (still do), it smelled good and to feed the animals. The winter solstice (holiday) was celebrated during that time. It was also a time to take a break from working the land since it was covered with snow, and rather cook, eat, sing, dance, decorate house, celebrate life and thank whatever god you worshiped if any.
Now Christians came in and suddenly tree became Christmas tree and Jesus was born on 24th or 25th.
I'd get them the tree since it's religious if you make it into one.

Um. What Christians believe Jesus was born on December 25? The feast of Christ / the Jesus holy day / Christmas became part of the liturgical cycle so that his life -- from the anticipation of his arrival to his return to heaven (and the beginning of the new Israel) could be celebrated over the course of a year.

+1. A day needed to be chosen because nobody knew Jesus' real birthdate. So they chose that day. To Christians, what PP is writing isn't old news.

If it helps, we Christians also understand that there was probably no snow around the manger in Bethlehem, even though there are some lovely carols about snow.

Also, wasn't it Queen Victoria's German husband, Albert, who brought the tree custom to Britain about 150 years ago? The tree is lovely, but it doesn't have a specific religious or sacramental role. I'm happy to share it with non-Christians!

Yes, but most biblical scholars agree that the birthdate was between February and April, not really near December at all. The *ONLY* reason that the church moved it to the current date was to compete directly with the Pagan Winter Solstice celebrations and to try and lure non-believers to the religion. They also started coopting various symbols of the winter solstice celebrations as a part of their traditions. That doesn't make them Christian symbols; it makes them shared symbols. But a Christmas tree is not exclusively a Christian symbol, and in fact, in the US, the Christmas tree is a ubiquitous secular symbol of the winter holidays.

Groundhog, you have made this assertion at least a couple of times in the past week. Please give a cite. Prevailing consensus is that no one has any knowledge of what month Jesus was born, let alone what year, although there a number of theories pointing almost equally to spring, summer, or fall.

Also, please give cites to evidence that the Church moved the date of celebration. The first known Christmas celebration occurred in the fourth century around December 25th--it was not celebrated before that. Coincidentally (or not so much) Christmas began to be celebrated after Constantine converted to Christianity and sought to spread it over the Roman Empire, which was full of pagans who loved their time of merrymaking around the winter solistice.

There were a number of theologically symbolic reasons to place Christ's birth around the winter solistice, which coincided nicely with a desire to Christianize a popular pagan holiday. You read this as a cynical maneuver by the early Church. Others see this as a humanistic accommodation by the Church, which recognized that people have a need for a celebration in the depths of winter when it feels the cold, damp, and short days without light will never end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thanks for the suggestions. I also had a Xmas tree growing up (as did my spouse), because our parents did the Xmas tree as part of adopting some aspects of American culture. I remember liking it, but it always felt in some way not enough....like we were faking it. Even as a child I realized I was doing a small part of the Christmas experience, and it made me feel....left out.

Things are different now than when I grew up - there's no need to adopt others' traditions where we live - there are a lot of Indians in my town. My kids are WAAAY more in touch with their Indian heritage than I was growing up, and that is in large part due the changes in demographics, but also what the population has chose to emphasize - religion, language, arts, etc. At any rate, my husband and I really want our kids to be able to turn to the tenets of our faith for guidance through their lives. And we think a big part of that is knowing who we aren't, and who we aren't. And we aren't Christian.

We put lights up outside our house for Diwali and leave them on until Jan 2, so we do have lights during Xmas too. I just think its going to be a slippery slope if I get them a tree. Then it will be presents next (when most Hindu holidays are NOT about gift-giving) and Santa, etc. etc. Where does it end? But I also don't want them to feel sad or left out.

OP,
Growing up in India, we got to celebrate or partake in holidays for every major religion, not just Hindu ones. That's because we had days off for Christmas, Eid and Diwali as well and India is a Hindu majority country. Not only that, we learned about all cultures/religion across the world in school not just India's ( which believe me has enough history, literature to cover multiple text books)
I feel despite the "secular" label, the US just honors Christian festivals. Christmas is a Christian holiday and we need to acknowledge that. There are nativity scenes, midnight mass, carols all in praise of Jesus(who I love btw) . But, we have a break during winter for Christmas and then over "spring break" which is Easter. I have no problem with it, but pls don't call it secular holidays. I think only a minority can understand what I feel. We have Diwali which is such a major festival for us and as a family we don't even get a break, let alone acknowledgement. The kids have school, sports events, sometimes tests. As a parent I am trying to get them to learn celebrate about their culture, festivAls but it feels like swimming against a tide, with all the obstacles. As a parent if I don't teach them who they are, where they come from, the beautiful aspects of our tradition, food, culture will be lost forever. That's my fear. It is one thing to assimilate ( which we end up doing anyway) but we also need to accept and celebrate our "uniqueness" and individuality while being appreciative of others'. I don't want to feel like someone is forcing me go put up a tree, just because. I celebrate thanksgiving wholeheartedly because it is a true American tradition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thanks for the suggestions. I also had a Xmas tree growing up (as did my spouse), because our parents did the Xmas tree as part of adopting some aspects of American culture. I remember liking it, but it always felt in some way not enough....like we were faking it. Even as a child I realized I was doing a small part of the Christmas experience, and it made me feel....left out.

Things are different now than when I grew up - there's no need to adopt others' traditions where we live - there are a lot of Indians in my town. My kids are WAAAY more in touch with their Indian heritage than I was growing up, and that is in large part due the changes in demographics, but also what the population has chose to emphasize - religion, language, arts, etc. At any rate, my husband and I really want our kids to be able to turn to the tenets of our faith for guidance through their lives. And we think a big part of that is knowing who we aren't, and who we aren't. And we aren't Christian.

We put lights up outside our house for Diwali and leave them on until Jan 2, so we do have lights during Xmas too. I just think its going to be a slippery slope if I get them a tree. Then it will be presents next (when most Hindu holidays are NOT about gift-giving) and Santa, etc. etc. Where does it end? But I also don't want them to feel sad or left out.

OP,
Growing up in India, we got to celebrate or partake in holidays for every major religion, not just Hindu ones. That's because we had days off for Christmas, Eid and Diwali as well and India is a Hindu majority country. Not only that, we learned about all cultures/religion across the world in school not just India's ( which believe me has enough history, literature to cover multiple text books)
I feel despite the "secular" label, the US just honors Christian festivals. Christmas is a Christian holiday and we need to acknowledge that. There are nativity scenes, midnight mass, carols all in praise of Jesus(who I love btw) . But, we have a break during winter for Christmas and then over "spring break" which is Easter. I have no problem with it, but pls don't call it secular holidays. I think only a minority can understand what I feel. We have Diwali which is such a major festival for us and as a family we don't even get a break, let alone acknowledgement. The kids have school, sports events, sometimes tests. As a parent I am trying to get them to learn celebrate about their culture, festivAls but it feels like swimming against a tide, with all the obstacles. As a parent if I don't teach them who they are, where they come from, the beautiful aspects of our tradition, food, culture will be lost forever. That's my fear. It is one thing to assimilate ( which we end up doing anyway) but we also need to accept and celebrate our "uniqueness" and individuality while being appreciative of others'. I don't want to feel like someone is forcing me go put up a tree, just because. I celebrate thanksgiving wholeheartedly because it is a true American tradition.

OP here. Thank you. You described exactly how I feel. Christmas is very important to most American children - nothing wrong with that - but we have to work SO HARD to make our Hindu festivals prominent in our kids' eyes - very much as you said swimming against the tide. For the last 3 years, we've been taking off Diwali from work and school, spending the day with family and friends, going to the temple, and then having a party at night. I also go in to the classroom the day before and talk about the holiday, because otherwise it will not get any acknowledgement from the school. I don't know how missing a random day of school is going to work when they are in high school, but for now, its something.... At any rate, happy new year, happy winter, and hari om sister

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thanks for the suggestions. I also had a Xmas tree growing up (as did my spouse), because our parents did the Xmas tree as part of adopting some aspects of American culture. I remember liking it, but it always felt in some way not enough....like we were faking it. Even as a child I realized I was doing a small part of the Christmas experience, and it made me feel....left out.

Things are different now than when I grew up - there's no need to adopt others' traditions where we live - there are a lot of Indians in my town. My kids are WAAAY more in touch with their Indian heritage than I was growing up, and that is in large part due the changes in demographics, but also what the population has chose to emphasize - religion, language, arts, etc. At any rate, my husband and I really want our kids to be able to turn to the tenets of our faith for guidance through their lives. And we think a big part of that is knowing who we aren't, and who we aren't. And we aren't Christian.

We put lights up outside our house for Diwali and leave them on until Jan 2, so we do have lights during Xmas too. I just think its going to be a slippery slope if I get them a tree. Then it will be presents next (when most Hindu holidays are NOT about gift-giving) and Santa, etc. etc. Where does it end? But I also don't want them to feel sad or left out.

OP,
Growing up in India, we got to celebrate or partake in holidays for every major religion, not just Hindu ones. That's because we had days off for Christmas, Eid and Diwali as well and India is a Hindu majority country. Not only that, we learned about all cultures/religion across the world in school not just India's ( which believe me has enough history, literature to cover multiple text books)
I feel despite the "secular" label, the US just honors Christian festivals. Christmas is a Christian holiday and we need to acknowledge that. There are nativity scenes, midnight mass, carols all in praise of Jesus(who I love btw) . But, we have a break during winter for Christmas and then over "spring break" which is Easter. I have no problem with it, but pls don't call it secular holidays. I think only a minority can understand what I feel. We have Diwali which is such a major festival for us and as a family we don't even get a break, let alone acknowledgement. The kids have school, sports events, sometimes tests. As a parent I am trying to get them to learn celebrate about their culture, festivAls but it feels like swimming against a tide, with all the obstacles. As a parent if I don't teach them who they are, where they come from, the beautiful aspects of our tradition, food, culture will be lost forever. That's my fear. It is one thing to assimilate ( which we end up doing anyway) but we also need to accept and celebrate our "uniqueness" and individuality while being appreciative of others'. I don't want to feel like someone is forcing me go put up a tree, just because. I celebrate thanksgiving wholeheartedly because it is a true American tradition.

British control in India probably explains the prominence of CHristmas there. I'd say, give the US another 50 to 100 years and other holidays will have much more prominence as Christian influence fades (as it is currently) and other religions and secularism continue to grow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thanks for the suggestions. I also had a Xmas tree growing up (as did my spouse), because our parents did the Xmas tree as part of adopting some aspects of American culture. I remember liking it, but it always felt in some way not enough....like we were faking it. Even as a child I realized I was doing a small part of the Christmas experience, and it made me feel....left out.

Things are different now than when I grew up - there's no need to adopt others' traditions where we live - there are a lot of Indians in my town. My kids are WAAAY more in touch with their Indian heritage than I was growing up, and that is in large part due the changes in demographics, but also what the population has chose to emphasize - religion, language, arts, etc. At any rate, my husband and I really want our kids to be able to turn to the tenets of our faith for guidance through their lives. And we think a big part of that is knowing who we aren't, and who we aren't. And we aren't Christian.

We put lights up outside our house for Diwali and leave them on until Jan 2, so we do have lights during Xmas too. I just think its going to be a slippery slope if I get them a tree. Then it will be presents next (when most Hindu holidays are NOT about gift-giving) and Santa, etc. etc. Where does it end? But I also don't want them to feel sad or left out.

OP,
Growing up in India, we got to celebrate or partake in holidays for every major religion, not just Hindu ones. That's because we had days off for Christmas, Eid and Diwali as well and India is a Hindu majority country. Not only that, we learned about all cultures/religion across the world in school not just India's ( which believe me has enough history, literature to cover multiple text books)
I feel despite the "secular" label, the US just honors Christian festivals. Christmas is a Christian holiday and we need to acknowledge that. There are nativity scenes, midnight mass, carols all in praise of Jesus(who I love btw) . But, we have a break during winter for Christmas and then over "spring break" which is Easter. I have no problem with it, but pls don't call it secular holidays. I think only a minority can understand what I feel. We have Diwali which is such a major festival for us and as a family we don't even get a break, let alone acknowledgement. The kids have school, sports events, sometimes tests. As a parent I am trying to get them to learn celebrate about their culture, festivAls but it feels like swimming against a tide, with all the obstacles. As a parent if I don't teach them who they are, where they come from, the beautiful aspects of our tradition, food, culture will be lost forever. That's my fear. It is one thing to assimilate ( which we end up doing anyway) but we also need to accept and celebrate our "uniqueness" and individuality while being appreciative of others'. I don't want to feel like someone is forcing me go put up a tree, just because. I celebrate thanksgiving wholeheartedly because it is a true American tradition.

OP here. Thank you. You described exactly how I feel. Christmas is very important to most American children - nothing wrong with that - but we have to work SO HARD to make our Hindu festivals prominent in our kids' eyes - very much as you said swimming against the tide. For the last 3 years, we've been taking off Diwali from work and school, spending the day with family and friends, going to the temple, and then having a party at night. I also go in to the classroom the day before and talk about the holiday, because otherwise it will not get any acknowledgement from the school. I don't know how missing a random day of school is going to work when they are in high school, but for now, its something.... At any rate, happy new year, happy winter, and hari om sister

Jews miss a lot of school right at the beginning of the school year (September/October). It always bothered me that it meant that I would never win an attendance award, but other than that it's seriously not a big deal. Encourage your children to tell their teachers in advance that they'll miss the day/s, ask how they can make up any work, and arrange with a classmate to get notes. Good luck!