Some facts about Holistic Admissions Criteria from Stanford Daily

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no evidence that Asian-American students have more and better extra-curriculars and leadership experience and other factors that go into a holistic admissions review. The only basis anyone claims that Asian-American students are more qualified is because of test scores. By definition, a non-holistic admissions process relies exclusively on grades and test scores. So if you argue that a holistic review is unfair, then you are demanding a numbers based process. And as I wrote earlier, every Asian education ministry says their test-based process is screwed up and unfair and produces bad results for learning.

Not true. If that were the case, the term Holistic Admissions would have a clear definition. It doesn't. Ask any college and you'll get one of those slippery answers that makes you feel like you need shower afterwards. What holistic admissions allows a school to do is make subjective decisions about each kid. The main problem with that is that there are inherent biases within us all. You best read the book The Gatekeepers by NYT writer Jaques Steinberg to get a better idea of what goes on. It's no accident some admissions folks at Wesleyan resigned just before this book came out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Penn is indeed racially balancing its freshman admittees as well as limiting the number of Asians it will accept,” Blum said. “What the data indicates to us, and to many observers, is that while Penn is raising the bar and lowering the bar as well as most competitive universities based on race, Penn is also engaged in a de facto quota limiting the number of Asians that it will take.”

http://www.thedp.com/article/2015/05/race-and-holistic-admissions-affirmative-action-and-asian-american-students

Right, but the whole point is that the "data" doesn't show you holistic admissions. Some folks are claiming that an Asian who plays guitar, captains the soccer team, interviews well, volunteers in their community, overcame a language barrier, carries straight As and aces the SAT is less likely to get into college than a White student who checks all of the same boxes. That may be true, but only the last two items on that list are "data" so by definition we can't know if it's true because all of the other stuff on that list isn't quantifiable.

Not just a white student. African American and Hispanic more likely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They have minimum floors which eliminate some applicants
Then there are a series of buckets and categories. They take the best from each category. Thats how it works
Basically as an Asian person you ARE competing against other Asians plus other people from your school/geographic region, background, etc
You are competing against people that are similar to you and they can't take everyone
Is the top underrepresented minority person first generation college student that went to a terrible high school more deserving than the 100th asian with higher grades/test scores, more extracurriculars, from a high performing school district who knows but chances are the person will get in instead of the 100th asian.

So what you are saying is it's fine to discriminate. Grand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I forgot to add that what the West Point admission committee is looking at in candidates are those factors that will most likely lead the candidate to graduate from West Point and to advance to the O5 rank or colonel throughout a military career.

The 5 year attrition rate is really high post graduation though and the military academies definitely have been directed to target minorities for enrollment.

[Anonymous]

So what is the answer? The West Point approach? Something else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that too many parents and students are focused on getting into the most elite schools. For most, even with the highest scores and perfect GPAs, the odds of getting in are rather slim. HYP accept 5%, 6% and 7% of applicants. The other 93 - 95 percent are rejected. Among the rejected applicants, I would be the majority all had the test scores and grades to match the applicants who were accepted. The test scores and grades get you in the door, after that the schools needs to start looking how to differentiate all the Lake Wobegon children from one another and to determine who will be the best fit for their incoming freshman class. There are limited spaces, and the decision needs to be made at some point about who will be in and who will be out. How would you differentiate, say, 20 applicants with perfect SATs and a perfect GPA. Should they all be admitted?

Not buying this either.

Yes, colleges will have to exercise discretion and apply mix of objective and subjective criteria for admission, That is reasonable but these criteria are applied differently based on race. The criticism is not that college admissions office use discretion or have subjective criteria. THEY ARE FINE as long as they are applied consistently and not racially discriminatory.

For example, if AA is given additional consideration for overcoming obstacles, some Asian Americans should be given additional consideration for overcoming obstacles as well such as language barrier, lack of support from parents due to language and cultural issues, being bullied in school, working after school, etc. The problem is AA will be given a bump for overcoming "obstacles" but Asians will not be given a bump and probably will be held to a higher standard even with demonstrated obstacles and viewed as "robots, drones, lacking creativity and one-dimensional etc." and other descriptions commonly thrown around on this forum without a second though.

The bottom line that people can get away with name calling and marginalizing Asian Americans because there won't be protests/riots whereas it is more "politically correct" to give AA a leg up and avoid marginalizing AA.

Agreed! I have a friend who has been in the CA school system as a teacher for over 20 years. She says that Asians come over not only not knowing the language, but they have to learn a whole new alphabet and essentially re-wire their brains to learn the language. And they succeed. She had one Asian boy who was not doing well, and it turned out he had an undiagnosed processing disorder. Went from Fs to As just by using an iPad in the classroom. His parents had been working for years to help their son, but were having language issues themselves. They are forever grateful to my friend for helping them. So is the boy who proudly said "see, I AM smart!" The bottom line is these parents were wonderful - involved, concerned, and wanting to help their child. They were instrumental in their son's fabulous outcome. Culturally, this is the norm.

Asians are not giving that bump - or often even credit by society - despite all they have achieved. It's wholly racist and the colleges need to be continually called out on it.

If Asian Americans have overcome obstacles and are able to articulate that, I think they would be given credit for this. But historically, while Asians (Chinese in California and Japanese during WWII) have been mistreated in the U.S., they were never slaves. Nor have they become a permanent underclass in many cities. The African American issue goes way back and continues to have repercussions for American society. Asians did not remain a permanent underclass by and large and have been able to raise themselves up by virtue of their own hard work so no they are no longer going to get affirmative action breaks in admissions like blacks or Hispanics (another group that has struggled in the U.S.). That's just the way this country is made.

Rightly or wrongly, I think what bothers people is the perception that the typical Asian parent is not involved with the school and learning community. There is a sense that the goal is to have their child be the best, get into the best schools etc., and often the give back to the community aspect seems to be missing. I'm not saying this a a wholly accurate perception, but as someone who has lived in Asia and whose children have attended schools with large percentages of Asian kids, this has been what I have seen. In part I think this is cultural, done out of respect for the teacher and school administration and their perceived ability to manage, but it often comes off differently to other communities within the school.

[Anonymous]

It's assinine for admission to college to be based on test scores alone. It is fact the highest SAT scores alone are not true determinants of the highest intelligence, best future scores and productivity is school or later life. Therefore, if I was the Director of Admissions of MIT/Harvard, I would never fill the entering class with the top most SAT scorers. I simply would not capture the cream of the crop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's assinine for admission to college to be based on test scores alone. It is fact the highest SAT scores alone are not true determinants of the highest intelligence, best future scores and productivity is school or later life. Therefore, if I was the Director of Admissions of MIT/Harvard, I would never fill the entering class with the top most SAT scorers. I simply would not capture the cream of the crop.

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's assinine for admission to college to be based on test scores alone. It is fact the highest SAT scores alone are not true determinants of the highest intelligence, best future scores and productivity is school or later life. Therefore, if I was the Director of Admissions of MIT/Harvard, I would never fill the entering class with the top most SAT scorers. I simply would not capture the cream of the crop.

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

You are whining because Asian Americans get a 50 point penalty on their SAT score. That's nothing. An average person can gain 200-300 points on the SAT with just a little studying. How much time do the best Asian American kids spending grinding away at practice tests? They are bumping their test scores a lot more than 50 points.

Don't get me wrong. I'm perfectly happy to give you the 50 points back. You can have them. It won't make your chances of admission that much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's assinine for admission to college to be based on test scores alone. It is fact the highest SAT scores alone are not true determinants of the highest intelligence, best future scores and productivity is school or later life. Therefore, if I was the Director of Admissions of MIT/Harvard, I would never fill the entering class with the top most SAT scorers. I simply would not capture the cream of the crop.

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

You are whining because Asian Americans get a 50 point penalty on their SAT score. That's nothing. An average person can gain 200-300 points on the SAT with just a little studying. How much time do the best Asian American kids spending grinding away at practice tests? They are bumping their test scores a lot more than 50 points.

Don't get me wrong. I'm perfectly happy to give you the 50 points back. You can have them. It won't make your chances of admission that much better.

At least admit to being racist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They have minimum floors which eliminate some applicants
Then there are a series of buckets and categories. They take the best from each category. Thats how it works
Basically as an Asian person you ARE competing against other Asians plus other people from your school/geographic region, background, etc
You are competing against people that are similar to you and they can't take everyone
Is the top underrepresented minority person first generation college student that went to a terrible high school more deserving than the 100th asian with higher grades/test scores, more extracurriculars, from a high performing school district who knows but chances are the person will get in instead of the 100th asian.

So what you are saying is it's fine to discriminate. Grand.

Grow up. The whole college admissions process is one long exercise in various kinds of discrimination. Schools have all sorts of goals in creating their classes. They eliminate some qualified candidates in favor of other qualified candidates for a whole bunch of reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's assinine for admission to college to be based on test scores alone. It is fact the highest SAT scores alone are not true determinants of the highest intelligence, best future scores and productivity is school or later life. Therefore, if I was the Director of Admissions of MIT/Harvard, I would never fill the entering class with the top most SAT scorers. I simply would not capture the cream of the crop.

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

Hello, not that PP, but you're missing a big part of the argument yourself. "Holistic" is a big umbrella word. Yes, "holistic" includes ECs and awards. But it also involves putting together a balanced entering class, a class that brings together different perspectives and life experiences and talents. An orchestra with only oboe players is going to lack that creative, dynamic, and inspirational spark. Even the oboe players are going to be uninspired by each other. Similarly, a class that's chock full of upper-middle-class strivers with engaged parents -- and these come in all skin colors, in fact I count our family among them -- is going to lack dynamism and creativity and interest.

As a mom of a straight-A white girl, however, I hear you about the within-group competition. Unlike you, however, I'm not out there demanding that colleges give most of their slots to girls.

[Anonymous]

“I got into medical school because I said I was black,” Chokal-Ingam writes at his blog Almost Black. “The funny thing is I’m not. . . . My plan actually worked. Lucky for you, I never became a doctor.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/416473/smash-bamboo-ceiling-racial-quotas-john-fund

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“I got into medical school because I said I was black,” Chokal-Ingam writes at his blog Almost Black. “The funny thing is I’m not. . . . My plan actually worked. Lucky for you, I never became a doctor.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/416473/smash-bamboo-ceiling-racial-quotas-john-fund

OMG. Not this again. He got into ONE medical school as a Black man, a school to which he didn't apply the first time around and in a totally different admissions cycle.

[Anonymous]

I imagine that eventually Asians will get involved in running our governments and universities. We might then finally have an end to this affirmative action nonsense.