Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

Could you please elaborate? Hard to believe anyone would find a concept like that offensive!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not new to DCUM but peruse this forum from time to time. The answers given don't satisfy me. They're a combination of:

1) God works in mysterious ways (so you won't know the answer in this lifetime)
2) people have free will (but if God is all powerful, why doesn't God prevent some of these horrible free will things?)
3) Satan (is every evil act Satan? Is God not powerful enough to stop Satan?)

I'm truly not trying to sound snarky or dismiss other people's deep beliefs. I have a lot of respect and a little bit of envy for those who can find peace and believe when they experience things like the shooting, ISIS, etc. But so far none of the given answers have resonated with me. Thanks for chiming in.

It doesn't sound like you're cut out for belief, pp. I'd stop trying and just enjoy your life.

The problem is , the Holy Spirit will not let him / her go quite that easily. !

The holy spirit has lost his mojo, with the numbers of not-religiously affiliated people being the only sector that is growing

I'm the PP with the questions above. The problem is that I want to believe and think I, like many people, would find solace in believing in some grand plan. But I'm too logical to accept things like "God is all powerful, except when he can't control free will." So maybe I do need to give up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not new to DCUM but peruse this forum from time to time. The answers given don't satisfy me. They're a combination of:

1) God works in mysterious ways (so you won't know the answer in this lifetime)
2) people have free will (but if God is all powerful, why doesn't God prevent some of these horrible free will things?)
3) Satan (is every evil act Satan? Is God not powerful enough to stop Satan?)

I'm truly not trying to sound snarky or dismiss other people's deep beliefs. I have a lot of respect and a little bit of envy for those who can find peace and believe when they experience things like the shooting, ISIS, etc. But so far none of the given answers have resonated with me. Thanks for chiming in.

It doesn't sound like you're cut out for belief, pp. I'd stop trying and just enjoy your life.

The problem is , the Holy Spirit will not let him / her go quite that easily. !

The holy spirit has lost his mojo, with the numbers of not-religiously affiliated people being the only sector that is growing

I'm the PP with the questions above. The problem is that I want to believe and think I, like many people, would find solace in believing in some grand plan. But I'm too logical to accept things like "God is all powerful, except when he can't control free will." So maybe I do need to give up.

Even people who find solace in religious faith have times of great doubt and questioning. They will tell you so themselves - that doubt is a part of faith - the faith is hard. That's understandable, considering there is no evidence for many of the beliefs people hold.

Seriously, you don't seem cut out for it -- and considering that even people who are cut out for it have problems, it seems to make sense to stop trying to believe and concentrate on making the most of the life you have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm so glad you posted this question.

I am a Christian, live in DC and spend the summer in Charleston. So I am here now and what I have witnessed this week has made me not doubt my faith, but actually inspired and made it stronger. What I have seen here this week is nothing short of the work of the Holy Spirit here on earth.

Satan himself -- in the body of DR -- walked into that church on Wednesday night. He confronted the risen Christ, and once again tried to attack it as he has done for 2,000 years. But was the result? Healing, love and forgiveness, even from those most personally affected by the tragedy. The city is in more pain than you can believe but there is also evidence here of the power of the risen Lord to conquer it all. DR is finished. His evil is exposed and has been put in his place. Others will try again -- Satan will not be fully conquered until Christ comes again -- but I can assure you, in this instance, he did not win.

Well stated. Yes, the people of Charleston are showing the rest of the nation - and the world - what true Christianity is. We should learn from them.

Aren't they ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

Could you please elaborate? Hard to believe anyone would find a concept like that offensive!

patriarchy

Why should I praise a sexist god? Why should I have to explain to my daughter why women can't be priests? that a nun's vows aren't considered a holy order in the eyes of the church?

Women are insignificant in most religions, which are man-made.

no thanks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

Could you please elaborate? Hard to believe anyone would find a concept like that offensive!

patriarchy

Why should I praise a sexist god? Why should I have to explain to my daughter why women can't be priests? that a nun's vows aren't considered a holy order in the eyes of the church?

Women are insignificant in most religions, which are man-made.

no thanks

NP. Well then your lack of religion works for you. yay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

Could you please elaborate? Hard to believe anyone would find a concept like that offensive!

patriarchy

Why should I praise a sexist god? Why should I have to explain to my daughter why women can't be priests? that a nun's vows aren't considered a holy order in the eyes of the church?

Women are insignificant in most religions, which are man-made.

no thanks

This is true in the Catholic church, yes, but hardly in all Christian religions. Most Protestant denominations have women in positions of great authority in the church. Hardly "insignificant." Your statement might have been true 50 or so years ago, but only shows how out of touch you are with churches and organized religion today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

Could you please elaborate? Hard to believe anyone would find a concept like that offensive!

patriarchy

Why should I praise a sexist god? Why should I have to explain to my daughter why women can't be priests? that a nun's vows aren't considered a holy order in the eyes of the church?

Women are insignificant in most religions, which are man-made.

no thanks

This is true in the Catholic church, yes, but hardly in all Christian religions. Most Protestant denominations have women in positions of great authority in the church. Hardly "insignificant." Your statement might have been true 50 or so years ago, but only shows how out of touch you are with churches and organized religion today.

Yes, religion is changing constantly and has been since humans first thought of it. Still, some people call it "God's word."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity [/quote

one of the many reasons I'm an ex-Catholic

Could you please elaborate? Hard to believe anyone would find a concept like that offensive!

patriarchy

Why should I praise a sexist god? Why should I have to explain to my daughter why women can't be priests? that a nun's vows aren't considered a holy order in the eyes of the church?

Women are insignificant in most religions, which are man-made.

no thanks

This is true in the Catholic church, yes, but hardly in all Christian religions. Most Protestant denominations have women in positions of great authority in the church. Hardly "insignificant." Your statement might have been true 50 or so years ago, but only shows how out of touch you are with churches and organized religion today.

The problem with religion is that because it's man made, it is perpetually "out of touch". Religion has been retreating throughout history. The modern form of religion is still shrinking in relevance. No doubt 50 years from now, people will say something like "you statement might have been true 50 or so years ago..." when someone lambaste some aspect of Christianity.

There are two possible methods of religious thinking: 1 There is a truth and it is perpetual - in which case how any deviation is wrong. 2 What is true is up to interpretation and is constantly changing - well then it seems rather like crapshoot what you believe in since unlike Science you can't rely on things like rationality and evidence to keep yourself away from making spectacularly wrong interpretations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP with the questions above. The problem is that I want to believe and think I, like many people, would find solace in believing in some grand plan. But I'm too logical to accept things like "God is all powerful, except when he can't control free will." So maybe I do need to give up.

To me, free will is compatable with an all-powerful God, in fact it's more compatible than the hypothetical opposite--humans who are merely worshipful robots who never make a false step. The Christian God loves his creations--us--and that's precisely why he hasn't created us to be perfectly behaved automatons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, religion is changing constantly and has been since humans first thought of it. Still, some people call it "God's word."

You are boring. The rest of us have gone through this a gazillion times here. You need a new playbook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP with the questions above. The problem is that I want to believe and think I, like many people, would find solace in believing in some grand plan. But I'm too logical to accept things like "God is all powerful, except when he can't control free will." So maybe I do need to give up.

To me, free will is compatable with an all-powerful God, in fact it's more compatible than the hypothetical opposite--humans who are merely worshipful robots who never make a false step. The Christian God loves his creations--us--and that's precisely why he hasn't created us to be perfectly behaved automatons.

PP, if I may address your concerns:

You are here praying a prayer that has been prayed by -- I would guess -- every Christian, for two thousand years. "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!" is the exact quote of Mark 9:24. What I love about this passage is that a man, who is in the presence of Jesus as He is healing the man's little boy, is STILL QUESTIONING. And you think it's a big deal that you and I occasionally have doubts???

I've said this here before on DCUM -- doubt is an integral part of faith. EVERYONE is logical to a certain extent, and wants the certainty of understanding. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. God of course knows that about us (He did make us that way) and repeatedly, throughout history, works with us on that level, knowing that we need understanding and reassurance. That is why He actually came so far as to send His Son to earth. How much more tangible than that can you get? And yet, even in the presence of Him, as Jesus was healing the sick, working miracles and generally revolutionizing the world of thought as only God Himself could do, many people around him still said, "yeah, right."

Since you are interested, here is what I suggest. Start reading the Bible. Start in the Gospels of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). You may have read these before, but this time, really read them, meditate on favorite passages, and listen to what God is saying to YOU today. Ask God to meet you where you are -- wanting to believe, but too logical to accept certain points. I promise you, He will do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP with the questions above. The problem is that I want to believe and think I, like many people, would find solace in believing in some grand plan. But I'm too logical to accept things like "God is all powerful, except when he can't control free will." So maybe I do need to give up.

To me, free will is compatable with an all-powerful God, in fact it's more compatible than the hypothetical opposite--humans who are merely worshipful robots who never make a false step. The Christian God loves his creations--us--and that's precisely why he hasn't created us to be perfectly behaved automatons.

PP, if I may address your concerns:

You are here praying a prayer that has been prayed by -- I would guess -- every Christian, for two thousand years. "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!" is the exact quote of Mark 9:24. What I love about this passage is that a man, who is in the presence of Jesus as He is healing the man's little boy, is STILL QUESTIONING. And you think it's a big deal that you and I occasionally have doubts???

I've said this here before on DCUM -- doubt is an integral part of faith. EVERYONE is logical to a certain extent, and wants the certainty of understanding. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. God of course knows that about us (He did make us that way) and repeatedly, throughout history, works with us on that level, knowing that we need understanding and reassurance. That is why He actually came so far as to send His Son to earth. How much more tangible than that can you get? And yet, even in the presence of Him, as Jesus was healing the sick, working miracles and generally revolutionizing the world of thought as only God Himself could do, many people around him still said, "yeah, right."

Since you are interested, here is what I suggest. Start reading the Bible. Start in the Gospels of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). You may have read these before, but this time, really read them, meditate on favorite passages, and listen to what God is saying to YOU today. Ask God to meet you where you are -- wanting to believe, but too logical to accept certain points. I promise you, He will do so.

Please do not read the BIble if you are trying to become more religious. It has the opposite effect on adults who are reading it in an attempt to understand what religion is all about. I know of people who were devout Christians, who decided to make a careful study of the bible who came out atheists once they saw all the discrepancies and learned how it had been translated many times over centuries.

More people are leaving religion than are moving towards it these days and part of the reason is that they are reading the Bible as educated adults. So please, do not take pp's advice if you want to be more religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP with the questions above. The problem is that I want to believe and think I, like many people, would find solace in believing in some grand plan. But I'm too logical to accept things like "God is all powerful, except when he can't control free will." So maybe I do need to give up.

To me, free will is compatable with an all-powerful God, in fact it's more compatible than the hypothetical opposite--humans who are merely worshipful robots who never make a false step. The Christian God loves his creations--us--and that's precisely why he hasn't created us to be perfectly behaved automatons.

PP, if I may address your concerns:

You are here praying a prayer that has been prayed by -- I would guess -- every Christian, for two thousand years. "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!" is the exact quote of Mark 9:24. What I love about this passage is that a man, who is in the presence of Jesus as He is healing the man's little boy, is STILL QUESTIONING. And you think it's a big deal that you and I occasionally have doubts???

I've said this here before on DCUM -- doubt is an integral part of faith. EVERYONE is logical to a certain extent, and wants the certainty of understanding. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. God of course knows that about us (He did make us that way) and repeatedly, throughout history, works with us on that level, knowing that we need understanding and reassurance. That is why He actually came so far as to send His Son to earth. How much more tangible than that can you get? And yet, even in the presence of Him, as Jesus was healing the sick, working miracles and generally revolutionizing the world of thought as only God Himself could do, many people around him still said, "yeah, right."

Since you are interested, here is what I suggest. Start reading the Bible. Start in the Gospels of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). You may have read these before, but this time, really read them, meditate on favorite passages, and listen to what God is saying to YOU today. Ask God to meet you where you are -- wanting to believe, but too logical to accept certain points. I promise you, He will do so.

Please do not read the BIble if you are trying to become more religious. It has the opposite effect on adults who are reading it in an attempt to understand what religion is all about. I know of people who were devout Christians, who decided to make a careful study of the bible who came out atheists once they saw all the discrepancies and learned how it had been translated many times over centuries.

More people are leaving religion than are moving towards it these days and part of the reason is that they are reading the Bible as educated adults. So please, do not take pp's advice if you want to be more religious.

Oh, please. You again. Give the PP a little credit for maturity, would you?