Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

Reading comprehension problems? *I* am saying that #2 is simpler and easier than #1, in contradiction to the claims of 13:51.

Sorry, you just demonstrated your own reading comprehension problems. Clearly you need somebody to unpack this for you. Bullets would probably help.
- You, an atheist, are telling believers that it's "simple" for believers to forgive.
- This is because you, an atheist, think you know what believers think better than the believers themselves.
- You're wrong on both counts.
- 13:51, a believer, has the creds to talk about what believers think.
- 13:51 is talking about mental anguish.
- Stop telling believers like 13:51 that their references to mental anguish are wrong because you, an atheist, know that it's as easy as door #2.

Really, you look ridiculous, besides being challenged reading comprehension-wise.

Signed, National Merit Scholarship Semi-finalist who believes

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Next we'll hear what pp's GPA is -- and we'll be very very impressed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
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Next we'll hear what pp's GPA is -- and we'll be very very impressed

PP here, I am actually sad for two reasons. First that someone with above average intelligence can have such a poor grasp of facts, logic, and horrid writing skills. Second that I've been spending time arguing against a high school kid.

I am undecided which is worse.

[Anonymous]

I am sad that the atheists are taking these murders and the experiences of those grieving to use it as some kind of ammunition against religion.

You are a heartless pack. You who claim to be the great sympathizers of humankind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good grief, the "problem" of God permitting evil was answered CENTURIES ago.

Those who whine "why does God permit this?" are only advertising their theological ignorance.

Christianity does not postulate that the world is a good place.

Christianity does not claim that God is presently in control of events; when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus rejected the offer but did not claim that it was spurious.

Jesus Christ would not have taught us to pray that God's Will be done here on Earth as it is in Heaven, unless God's Will was not being done here on Earth.

There are numerous instances in the Old Testament where Israel and others go against God's Will. Therefore, it is possible for humans to act in opposition to God, without him dictating their actions. Furthermore, the very notion of Lucifer's Fall indicates strongly that God is not in control of all things.

Jesus Christ says that Satan has no hold on him, presumably because he has not sinned. Therefore, Satan does have a hold on everyone who has sinned, namely, the rest of us on the planet.

It is thus a massive error to blame God for any specific evil act, or for evil in general.

Blame Satan, and blame his evil human minions.

Yes, yes, the answer has been given. But the answer is not satisfactory. That's why we continue to question it. No one questions why the sun rises in the east anymore because that question has been satisfactorily answered. The problem of evil is far from settled. Christian apologists have tried to work around the definition of omnibenevolence - what it means, how it works, and etc. The debate rages on because language and religion are both man made, and as we are the maker of these things, we are in control of them and are able to change them at will to suit our purpose.

A God who created our world should be able to do the same. Yet there is no evidence that he does.

Who are you to decide what god should be able to do Only God can decide that and He has clearly shown that He cannot or does not control evil. He is responsible for the good things. Just be grateful for that.

NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not new to DCUM but peruse this forum from time to time. The answers given don't satisfy me. They're a combination of:

1) God works in mysterious ways (so you won't know the answer in this lifetime)
2) people have free will (but if God is all powerful, why doesn't God prevent some of these horrible free will things?)
3) Satan (is every evil act Satan? Is God not powerful enough to stop Satan?)

I'm truly not trying to sound snarky or dismiss other people's deep beliefs. I have a lot of respect and a little bit of envy for those who can find peace and believe when they experience things like the shooting, ISIS, etc. But so far none of the given answers have resonated with me. Thanks for chiming in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not new to DCUM but peruse this forum from time to time. The answers given don't satisfy me. They're a combination of:

1) God works in mysterious ways (so you won't know the answer in this lifetime)
2) people have free will (but if God is all powerful, why doesn't God prevent some of these horrible free will things?)
3) Satan (is every evil act Satan? Is God not powerful enough to stop Satan?)

I'm truly not trying to sound snarky or dismiss other people's deep beliefs. I have a lot of respect and a little bit of envy for those who can find peace and believe when they experience things like the shooting, ISIS, etc. But so far none of the given answers have resonated with me. Thanks for chiming in.

It doesn't sound like you're cut out for belief, pp. I'd stop trying and just enjoy your life.

[Anonymous]

Christians worship a God who-according to the faith tradition-came down to Earth to be executed...so, of course not.
Evil done to good people is expected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Christians worship a God who-according to the faith tradition-came down to Earth to be executed...so, of course not.
Evil done to good people is expected.

Which jives with how people have treated each other before and after Jesus arrived. Sometimes people are good to each other; sometimes they treat each other horribly. So having a God who suffered just like people often do makes life easier for people disposed to religious belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not new to DCUM but peruse this forum from time to time. The answers given don't satisfy me. They're a combination of:

1) God works in mysterious ways (so you won't know the answer in this lifetime)
2) people have free will (but if God is all powerful, why doesn't God prevent some of these horrible free will things?)
3) Satan (is every evil act Satan? Is God not powerful enough to stop Satan?)

I'm truly not trying to sound snarky or dismiss other people's deep beliefs. I have a lot of respect and a little bit of envy for those who can find peace and believe when they experience things like the shooting, ISIS, etc. But so far none of the given answers have resonated with me. Thanks for chiming in.

It doesn't sound like you're cut out for belief, pp. I'd stop trying and just enjoy your life.

The problem is , the Holy Spirit will not let him / her go quite that easily. !

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. This is an interests discussion. Thanks. However, I'm stuck on the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent. If God knows all and can save one person, why did God allow that person to murder? I'm truly stuck on this. Omnipotent means knows and controls everything. Not just the good stuff.

I'm an atheist myself, but you must really be a NEW poster if you have not seen the answer to that time and again. The answer is that He made us with free will, and the ability to do both good and evil, not as puppets for Him to guide in all things. That answer may not satisfy you (or me), but there is no inconsistency in believing that God has the power to control us but chooses to let us decide our own fates.

Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not new to DCUM but peruse this forum from time to time. The answers given don't satisfy me. They're a combination of:

1) God works in mysterious ways (so you won't know the answer in this lifetime)
2) people have free will (but if God is all powerful, why doesn't God prevent some of these horrible free will things?)
3) Satan (is every evil act Satan? Is God not powerful enough to stop Satan?)

I'm truly not trying to sound snarky or dismiss other people's deep beliefs. I have a lot of respect and a little bit of envy for those who can find peace and believe when they experience things like the shooting, ISIS, etc. But so far none of the given answers have resonated with me. Thanks for chiming in.

It doesn't sound like you're cut out for belief, pp. I'd stop trying and just enjoy your life.

The problem is , the Holy Spirit will not let him / her go quite that easily. !

The holy spirit has lost his mojo, with the numbers of not-religiously affiliated people being the only sector that is growing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am sad that the atheists are taking these murders and the experiences of those grieving to use it as some kind of ammunition against religion.

You are a heartless pack. You who claim to be the great sympathizers of humankind.

Pray for them.

I do.

[Anonymous]

23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:51 that is not at all true , especially world wide. The Holy Spirit is alive and well. You would have seen him in charleston last week, just as one example

The holy spirit is male?

The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, like god Jesus is fully male because he is human as well as god. Therefore, we generally use male pronouns when speaking of the Trinity