satire or hate speech?

[Anonymous]

But Dieudonne is also practicing his right for free speech. Why ban him?

The problem is, when it's against muslims, it's free speech, but when it's against any other race/religious group, it becomes hate speech. Hypocrisy at it's best. Disgusting.

Close to home recent example:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/connecticut-brewery-apologizes-gandhi-beer-28003869

We haven't seen people tossing and turning over this brewery apology, but we sure raised a hell over muslims speaking up against South Park and Charlie Hebdo.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:There. You just drew a line on FREEDOM of speech. Why do you get to draw the line on what is acceptable and unacceptable? Why can I insult, satire and deeply offend billions of Muslims & Christians but I can't do the same to holocaust survivors? Because they're more offended by it? Ridiculous, a complete hypocritical definition of 'freedom of speech! If you are going to have freedom of speech to insult the prophet of Islam, then you do have a right to say anything you want about the Holocaust, no matter how much offense you or anyone else takes with it.

As has been repeatedly mentioned in this forum, and as any French person knows, CH mocked everyone -- including Jews. As any French person also knows, they were anti-racists, who used seemingly racists cartoons precisely to make their points. We can argue that their cartoons are distasteful and offensive. But if you can't see that Dieudonne is fundamentally different -- HATE speech, to incite hatred against a particular religious group, as exemplified by the quotes above, which are just a sample of what your "comedian" routinely says -- then you are part of the problem.

What troubles me the most is that you don't see that this vitriol is received by frustrated and impressionable young kids from the banlieues as a role model -- and then you see them doing the quenelle in front of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries. I thought you thought radical ignorance was the problem. You should denounce Dieudonne as even more dangerous to your community than some silly cartoons. You are choosing not to.

And when you repeatedly imply that the only reason Dieudonne was banned was because he simply said "Jews are crooks," and nothing else, as your earlier posts indicate, then you are dishonest.

By the way, when I read some of your earlier contributions in the other thread, I thought you were bringing a useful perspective. I agreed with you that the burka ban is wrong, and defended your position. I also agreed that there is increasing xenophobia in France and Europe, and highlighted that the fact that Front National (Dieudonne is pal of some FN bigots, like Le Pen father, by the way) getting 30% is a problem. But you are now ranting. As someone said, you have lost all credibility and the good will of many people like me who wanted to agree with you and wanted to support your views. You have alienated lots of people here. Of course you can say whatever you want. But you had an opportunity to bring a useful perspective to this forum. You squandered it. I am sure you don't care.

I won't be replying to your post anymore, but I am sure you are going to call me an hypocrite and the like. Feel free to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But Dieudonne is also practicing his right for free speech. Why ban him?

The problem is, when it's against muslims, it's free speech, but when it's against any other race/religious group, it becomes hate speech. Hypocrisy at it's best. Disgusting.

Close to home recent example:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/connecticut-brewery-apologizes-gandhi-beer-28003869

We haven't seen people tossing and turning over this brewery apology, but we sure raised a hell over muslims speaking up against South Park and Charlie Hebdo.

Because French laws draws a line when speech incites hatred against a particular group, not simply when speech mocks a multitude of groups.

[Anonymous]

^^ In other words, if Diedonne said something like "too bad the Crusaders didn't finish the job of eliminating Muslims" he would also be immediately banned. No double standard at all. If you doubt that, then you don't understand French laws regarding hate speech.

[Anonymous]

Pps, thank u for your thoughtful posts.

[Anonymous]

Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad with a fused bomb in his turban DOES represents hate speech by representing his followers as war-waging bomb-blowing monsters. Don't pretend that it had a rosy message.

[Anonymous]

I would hate to live in a world where you have to fear everything you say could be considered an insult to extremist Islamists regardless how one might consider it somewhat innocuous.

What about David Letterman's comment a few years back that had absolutely nothing to do with the Prophet Muhammad but still garnered a death threat?

On August 17, 2011, it was reported that a Muslim militant had posted a death threat against Letterman on a website frequented by Al-Qaeda supporters, calling on American Muslims to kill Letterman for making a joke about the death of an Al-Qaeda leader killed in a drone strike in Pakistan in June 2011.[104] In his show on August 22, Letterman joked about the threat, saying "State Department authorities are looking into this. They're not taking this lightly. They're looking into it. They're questioning, they're interrogating, there's an electronic trail—but everybody knows it's Leno."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad with a fused bomb in his turban DOES represents hate speech by representing his followers as war-waging bomb-blowing monsters. Don't pretend that it had a rosy message.

Would you feel differently if it had been a caricature of Bush in a turban instead of Muhammad insinuating that his followers (in this instance Americans) are war-waging bomb-blowing monsters?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think Muslima's positions have been more consistent than some of her critics.

It is outright hypocritical to defend the right to insult Mohammed on the grounds of free speech and yet have no issue with those who attempt to restrict the right of someone who chooses to offend Jews or challenge the holocaust.

"She" stated three Muslims shot Charlie Hebdo. What she did not conveniently recognize is those three were executing the plan of well organized terrorist groups, who are proud of their accomplishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad with a fused bomb in his turban DOES represents hate speech by representing his followers as war-waging bomb-blowing monsters. Don't pretend that it had a rosy message.

I dont see this as hate speech. Sorry.
To me, its connecting an interpretation of Islam to terrorism. Which happens everyday.

[Muslima]

As has been repeatedly mentioned in this forum, and as any French person knows, CH mocked everyone -- including Jews. As any French person also knows, they were anti-racists, who used seemingly racists cartoons precisely to make their points. We can argue that their cartoons are distasteful and offensive. But if you can't see that Dieudonne is fundamentally different -- HATE speech, to incite hatred against a particular religious group, as exemplified by the quotes above, which are just a sample of what your "comedian" routinely says -- then you are part of the problem.
What troubles me the most is that you don't see that this vitriol is received by frustrated and impressionable young kids from the banlieues as a role model -- and then you see them doing the quenelle in front of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries. I thought you thought radical ignorance was the problem. You should denounce Dieudonne as even more dangerous to your community than some silly cartoons. You are choosing not to.

First, it is dishonest to say that CH an equal-opportunity offender. For one, the cartoons directed at Muslims were more vulgar than the rest, and over the past 10+ years, Islam became their primary target, out of all proportion with the number of Muslims in France or their political weight in the country. Why did CH fire Sinet, one of its founding members, a very famous cartoonist and humorist in France? Because he dared to write a story that revolves around a cartoon he drew about Sarkozy's son converting to Judaism? It was more a joke about the Sarkozy family's tackiness than about Jews. But the editor of Charlie at the time, Philippe Val kicked Sine out, so please do not talk to me about equal opportunity offender. When the editor of Charlie Hebdo asked Sinet to apologize, Sinet replied “I’d rather cut my balls off” and he was fired. Wikileaks actually blamed the persecution of Sinet, at the request of a heavily Jewish pro-censorship group, for legitimizing Muslim outrage against the magazine and contributing to the mass murder.

2nd, I do not see Dieudonne as any different from CH. He is a comedian who mocks Judaism in his words "Because every one else in France mocks Islam and Blacks". As a comedian, he has the same right as CH to be a bigot if you are a proponent of Free Speech, CH and Dieudonne are one and the same and I don't personally care for either. What you don't get is that I do not Support Dieudonne's speech, the same way that I do not support CH's cartoons, really you won't find me marching on the streets for either of those 2, what I have been denouncing all along is the Blatant Double Standard. The charges to Dieudonne were brought by the French Interior Minister who is a publicly documented xenophobe who, in his position as minster, has called for the mass expulsion of France's Roma community on an ethnic basis, and, as mayor of the city of Evry, was recorded apparently musing that "more white people" would give "a better image" to the town. No legal sanction however was forthcoming against him. So do not tell me about hate speech and inciting hatred against a particular group. And so you know, i guess in your world, Human Rights Watch has also lost all its credibility since them and other international organizations stated that Banning Dieudonne's shows was wrong and anti-freedom of speech.

From Human Right Watch( written by a descendant of victims of the Holocaust):

Yet a country’s dedication to human rights and democratic values is measured in the way it treats those with whom it disagrees, and in this instance, France has failed that test. France should respect freedom of expression, including those opinions that shock, offend, or disturb – unless they amount to inciting violence. Any restrictions to this freedom must be necessary and proportionate, and banning Dieudonné shows is neither. If there are indeed threats to public order, authorities should deploy enough police officers to deter violence, not ban the show altogether.

And when you repeatedly imply that the only reason Dieudonne was banned was because he simply said "Jews are crooks," and nothing else, as your earlier posts indicate, then you are dishonest.

I never said he was banned for saying "Jews are crooks." I said that he was Fined was making that statement. He was banned because the french government stated that his shows were anti-Semitic.

By the way, when I read some of your earlier contributions in the other thread, I thought you were bringing a useful perspective. I agreed with you that the burka ban is wrong, and defended your position. I also agreed that there is increasing xenophobia in France and Europe, and highlighted that the fact that Front National (Dieudonne is pal of some FN bigots, like Le Pen father, by the way) getting 30% is a problem. But you are now ranting. As someone said, you have lost all credibility and the good will of many people like me who wanted to agree with you and wanted to support your views. You have alienated lots of people here. Of course you can say whatever you want. But you had an opportunity to bring a useful perspective to this forum. You squandered it. I am sure you don't care.

I would think you agreed with some of my earlier contributions based on intellectual honesty and that in no way means that going forward you and I have to see eye to eye on everything. I am not running for office or a popularity contest, so whether you think I am credible or not or need supporters to feel legitimized only lives in your head. I am here to share my thoughts, nothing more , nothing less. When I don't agree with you or anyone else, I will say so, and that is my opinion, just like you are entitled to your own. I think you are wrong on the Dieudonne stance, but that is MY opinion and I will voice it.

I won't be replying to your post anymore, but I am sure you are going to call me an hypocrite and the like. Feel free to do so.

You don't have to respond to any of my posts, we live in a free world where we can debate ideas, disagree, and move on like civilized people do. You demonstrate the very point I have been making all along in your attitude. A disinhibited double standard that only falls back on rhetoric, self-sympathy, and avoids any useful discourse.
If you have any real convictions or principles, do not betray them. Treat all freedom of expression equally. Treat all innocent lives equally.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

As has been repeatedly mentioned in this forum, and as any French person knows, CH mocked everyone -- including Jews. As any French person also knows, they were anti-racists, who used seemingly racists cartoons precisely to make their points. We can argue that their cartoons are distasteful and offensive. But if you can't see that Dieudonne is fundamentally different -- HATE speech, to incite hatred against a particular religious group, as exemplified by the quotes above, which are just a sample of what your "comedian" routinely says -- then you are part of the problem.
What troubles me the most is that you don't see that this vitriol is received by frustrated and impressionable young kids from the banlieues as a role model -- and then you see them doing the quenelle in front of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries. I thought you thought radical ignorance was the problem. You should denounce Dieudonne as even more dangerous to your community than some silly cartoons. You are choosing not to.

First, it is dishonest to say that CH an equal-opportunity offender. For one, the cartoons directed at Muslims were more vulgar than the rest, and over the past 10+ years, Islam became their primary target, out of all proportion with the number of Muslims in France or their political weight in the country. Why did CH fire Sinet, one of its founding members, a very famous cartoonist and humorist in France? Because he dared to write a story that revolves around a cartoon he drew about Sarkozy's son converting to Judaism? It was more a joke about the Sarkozy family's tackiness than about Jews. But the editor of Charlie at the time, Philippe Val kicked Sine out, so please do not talk to me about equal opportunity offender. When the editor of Charlie Hebdo asked Sinet to apologize, Sinet replied “I’d rather cut my balls off” and he was fired. Wikileaks actually blamed the persecution of Sinet, at the request of a heavily Jewish pro-censorship group, for legitimizing Muslim outrage against the magazine and contributing to the mass murder.

2nd, I do not see Dieudonne as any different from CH. He is a comedian who mocks Judaism in his words "Because every one else in France mocks Islam and Blacks". As a comedian, he has the same right as CH to be a bigot if you are a proponent of Free Speech, CH and Dieudonne are one and the same and I don't personally care for either. What you don't get is that I do not Support Dieudonne's speech, the same way that I do not support CH's cartoons, really you won't find me marching on the streets for either of those 2, what I have been denouncing all along is the Blatant Double Standard. The charges to Dieudonne were brought by the French Interior Minister who is a publicly documented xenophobe who, in his position as minster, has called for the mass expulsion of France's Roma community on an ethnic basis, and, as mayor of the city of Evry, was recorded apparently musing that "more white people" would give "a better image" to the town. No legal sanction however was forthcoming against him. So do not tell me about hate speech and inciting hatred against a particular group. And so you know, i guess in your world, Human Rights Watch has also lost all its credibility since them and other international organizations stated that Banning Dieudonne's shows was wrong and anti-freedom of speech.

From Human Right Watch( written by a descendant of victims of the Holocaust):

Yet a country’s dedication to human rights and democratic values is measured in the way it treats those with whom it disagrees, and in this instance, France has failed that test. France should respect freedom of expression, including those opinions that shock, offend, or disturb – unless they amount to inciting violence. Any restrictions to this freedom must be necessary and proportionate, and banning Dieudonné shows is neither. If there are indeed threats to public order, authorities should deploy enough police officers to deter violence, not ban the show altogether.

And when you repeatedly imply that the only reason Dieudonne was banned was because he simply said "Jews are crooks," and nothing else, as your earlier posts indicate, then you are dishonest.

I never said he was banned for saying "Jews are crooks." I said that he was Fined was making that statement. He was banned because the french government stated that his shows were anti-Semitic.

By the way, when I read some of your earlier contributions in the other thread, I thought you were bringing a useful perspective. I agreed with you that the burka ban is wrong, and defended your position. I also agreed that there is increasing xenophobia in France and Europe, and highlighted that the fact that Front National (Dieudonne is pal of some FN bigots, like Le Pen father, by the way) getting 30% is a problem. But you are now ranting. As someone said, you have lost all credibility and the good will of many people like me who wanted to agree with you and wanted to support your views. You have alienated lots of people here. Of course you can say whatever you want. But you had an opportunity to bring a useful perspective to this forum. You squandered it. I am sure you don't care.

I would think you agreed with some of my earlier contributions based on intellectual honesty and that in no way means that going forward you and I have to see eye to eye on everything. I am not running for office or a popularity contest, so whether you think I am credible or not or need supporters to feel legitimized only lives in your head. I am here to share my thoughts, nothing more , nothing less. When I don't agree with you or anyone else, I will say so, and that is my opinion, just like you are entitled to your own. I think you are wrong on the Dieudonne stance, but that is MY opinion and I will voice it.

I won't be replying to your post anymore, but I am sure you are going to call me an hypocrite and the like. Feel free to do so.

You don't have to respond to any of my posts, we live in a free world where we can debate ideas, disagree, and move on like civilized people do. You demonstrate the very point I have been making all along in your attitude. A disinhibited double standard that only falls back on rhetoric, self-sympathy, and avoids any useful discourse.
If you have any real convictions or principles, do not betray them. Treat all freedom of expression equally. Treat all innocent lives equally.

Muslima is right. That is why 3 Jews killed Dieudonne and took hostages at a Halal supermarket last week....

[Muslima]

And it gets better in the land of the free, Dieudonne was arrested this morning ...

Notorious French comedian Dieudonné M’bala M’bala has been arrested for being an “apologist for terrorism” after suggesting on Facebook that he sympathised with one of the Paris gunmen, a judicial source has said.

Prosecutors had opened the case against him on Monday after he wrote “Tonight, as far as I’m concerned, I feel like Charlie Coulibaly” – mixing the slogan “Je suis Charlie”, used in tribute to the journalists killed at magazine Charlie Hebdo, with a reference to gunman Amédy Coulibaly. Dieudonné was arrested on Wednesday.

Source:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/dieudonne-arrest-facebook-post-charlie-coulibaly-paris-gunman

Dieudonne's arrest is one of 54 cases that have been opened in France for "condoning terrorism" or "making threats to carry out terrorist acts" since last week's Islamist shootings that left 17 people dead.

His lawyer David de Stefano said his arrest was "shocking."

"We are in the land of freedom of expression? This morning, the government provided the demonstration of that," he said sarcastically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^ Do you realize that you are implicitly saying that a repulsive anti-Semite like Dieudonne has the right to spew hate, but that the CH cartoonists should have censured themselves? Wow. Wow.

She's not implicitly saying it, she's explicitly said it. And REFUSED TO CONDEMN the actions of the terrorist killers in Paris, or any terrorists killers really, because of her belief that people should self-censure so as not to offend Muslims.

I will come out and say that I respect and support the right of anyone, even Dieudonne, to say whatever they want. She keeps calling people hyprocrites here but I have said this over and over and over again on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad with a fused bomb in his turban DOES represents hate speech by representing his followers as war-waging bomb-blowing monsters. Don't pretend that it had a rosy message.

I dont see this as hate speech. Sorry.
To me, its connecting an interpretation of Islam to terrorism. Which happens everyday.

Bingo. No one is pretending these are "rosy" messages, simply that rational adults ought to be able to put them into perspective and get on with their lives. You don't see Christians killing cartoonists like those at CH for making fun of Christ on the cross or artists like the one behind Piss Christ. People are free to believe and say what they want, and their beliefs or speech have no impact on my faith whatsoever.