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Reply to "satire or hate speech?"
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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Muslima][quote] As has been repeatedly mentioned in this forum, and as any French person knows, CH mocked everyone -- including Jews. As any French person also knows, they were anti-racists, who used seemingly racists cartoons precisely to make their points. We can argue that their cartoons are distasteful and offensive. But if you can't see that Dieudonne is fundamentally different -- HATE speech, to incite hatred against a particular religious group, as exemplified by the quotes above, which are just a sample of what your "comedian" routinely says -- then you are part of the problem. What troubles me the most is that you don't see that this vitriol is received by frustrated and impressionable young kids from the banlieues as a role model -- and then you see them doing the quenelle in front of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries. I thought you thought radical ignorance was the problem. You should denounce Dieudonne as even more dangerous to your community than some silly cartoons. You are choosing not to. [/quote] First, it is dishonest to say that CH an equal-opportunity offender. For one, the cartoons directed at Muslims were more vulgar than the rest, and over the past 10+ years, Islam became their primary target, out of all proportion with the number of Muslims in France or their political weight in the country. Why did CH fire Sinet, one of its founding members, a very famous cartoonist and humorist in France? Because he dared to write a story that revolves around a cartoon he drew about Sarkozy's son converting to Judaism? It was more a joke about the Sarkozy family's tackiness than about Jews. But the editor of Charlie at the time, Philippe Val kicked Sine out, so please do not talk to me about equal opportunity offender. When the editor of Charlie Hebdo asked Sinet to apologize, Sinet replied “I’d rather cut my balls off” and he was fired. Wikileaks actually blamed the persecution of Sinet, at the request of a heavily Jewish pro-censorship group, for legitimizing Muslim outrage against the magazine and contributing to the mass murder. 2nd, I do not see Dieudonne as any different from CH. He is a comedian who mocks Judaism in his words "Because every one else in France mocks Islam and Blacks". As a comedian, he has the same right as CH to be a bigot if you are a proponent of Free Speech, CH and Dieudonne are one and the same and I don't personally care for either. What you don't get is that I do not Support Dieudonne's speech, the same way that I do not support CH's cartoons, really you won't find me marching on the streets for either of those 2, what I have been denouncing all along is the Blatant Double Standard. The charges to Dieudonne were brought by the French Interior Minister who is a publicly documented xenophobe who, in his position as minster, has called for the mass expulsion of France's Roma community on an ethnic basis, and, as mayor of the city of Evry, was recorded apparently musing that "more white people" would give "a better image" to the town. No legal sanction however was forthcoming against him. So do not tell me about hate speech and inciting hatred against a particular group. And so you know, i guess in your world, Human Rights Watch has also lost all its credibility since them and other international organizations stated that Banning Dieudonne's shows was wrong and anti-freedom of speech. From Human Right Watch( written by a descendant of victims of the Holocaust): [quote]Yet a country’s dedication to human rights and democratic values is measured in the way it treats those with whom it disagrees, and in this instance, France has failed that test. France should respect freedom of expression, including those opinions that shock, offend, or disturb – unless they amount to inciting violence. Any restrictions to this freedom must be necessary and proportionate, and banning Dieudonné shows is neither. If there are indeed threats to public order, authorities should deploy enough police officers to deter violence, not ban the show altogether.[/quote] [quote]And when you repeatedly imply that the only reason Dieudonne was banned was because he simply said "Jews are crooks," and nothing else, as your earlier posts indicate, then you are dishonest.[/quote] I never said he was banned for saying "Jews are crooks." I said that he was Fined was making that statement. He was banned because the french government stated that his shows were anti-Semitic. [quote] By the way, when I read some of your earlier contributions in the other thread, I thought you were bringing a useful perspective. I agreed with you that the burka ban is wrong, and defended your position. I also agreed that there is increasing xenophobia in France and Europe, and highlighted that the fact that Front National (Dieudonne is pal of some FN bigots, like Le Pen father, by the way) getting 30% is a problem. But you are now ranting. As someone said, you have lost all credibility and the good will of many people like me who wanted to agree with you and wanted to support your views. You have alienated lots of people here. Of course you can say whatever you want. But you had an opportunity to bring a useful perspective to this forum. You squandered it. I am sure you don't care.[/quote] I would think you agreed with some of my earlier contributions based on intellectual honesty and that in no way means that going forward you and I have to see eye to eye on everything. I am not running for office or a popularity contest, so whether you think I am credible or not or need supporters to feel legitimized only lives in your head. I am here to share my thoughts, nothing more , nothing less. When I don't agree with you or anyone else, I will say so, and that is my opinion, just like you are entitled to your own. I think you are wrong on the Dieudonne stance, but that is MY opinion and I will voice it. [quote]I won't be replying to your post anymore, but I am sure you are going to call me an hypocrite and the like. Feel free to do so.[/quote] You don't have to respond to any of my posts, we live in a free world where we can debate ideas, disagree, and move on like civilized people do. You demonstrate the very point I have been making all along in your attitude. A disinhibited double standard that only falls back on rhetoric, self-sympathy, and avoids any useful discourse. If you have any real convictions or principles, do not betray them. Treat all freedom of expression equally. Treat all innocent lives equally.[/quote] Muslima is right. That is why 3 Jews killed Dieudonne and took hostages at a Halal supermarket last week....[/quote]
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