satire or hate speech?

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:The French government stops what's clearly hate speech. The French government doesn't stop satirical cartoons. But you're not going to get it.

Dieudonne is a satirical comedian

[Anonymous]

Frankly, I think Muslima's positions have been more consistent than some of her critics.

It is outright hypocritical to defend the right to insult Mohammed on the grounds of free speech and yet have no issue with those who attempt to restrict the right of someone who chooses to offend Jews or challenge the holocaust.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The French government stops what's clearly hate speech. The French government doesn't stop satirical cartoons. But you're not going to get it.

Dieudonne is a satirical comedian

Yeah, right. I am sure you find him funny.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The French government stops what's clearly hate speech. The French government doesn't stop satirical cartoons. But you're not going to get it.

Dieudonne is a satirical comedian

Yes he is. He is also someone who has said he defends the actions of the killers by saying I am Charlie coulibaby. That is separate from being a comedian..that is simply pledging an affiliation with murderers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think Muslima's positions have been more consistent than some of her critics.

It is outright hypocritical to defend the right to insult Mohammed on the grounds of free speech and yet have no issue with those who attempt to restrict the right of someone who chooses to offend Jews or challenge the holocaust.

"challenge the [H]olocaust?" Didn't know it was up for debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A French friend's friend shared this in his Facebook page, to explain CH to people unfamiliar with it:

C.H. is not and was not "racist" or "islamophobic". It was an equal-opportunity, anti-political-correctness offender. In the tradition of hard-core French caricature, no once is spared: C.H. made fun brutally - and it made fun of everyone: drug users and conservative bourgeois, catholics and muslims, whites and blacks, women and men, gays and straights, socialists and right-wingers, communists and fascists. Only, it was FAR more brutal with extreme-right-wingers and neo-fascists of all kinds, but it was quite brutal with everyone.
This came from a double tradition: that of French caricature and satire since the early 19th century (EVERYONE gets caricatured, not only your enemies), and that of the political/intellectual/ideological movement C.H. at most corresponded to, left-wing anarchism combined with radical atheism. C.H. was also (or its authors were/are) feminist, environmentalist, internationalist, anti-fascist and anti-racist - but at its core it was anarchist, against authority, against crowd-thinking, against blind adherence to ideologies - hence it made (brutal) fun also of its own "side". If you want to understand more, you can look at Le Canard Enchaine, a French satirical weekly that is less obscene and more text-based, but as disrespectful of authority as C.H. (and many cartoonists worked for both).
When I read that C.H.'s cartoons are/were "racist" or "islamophobic" or whatever of the kind - it is worse than wrong, it is really turning things on their head. What C.H.'s humour was based on, apart from being brutal and obscene (again, a long tradition in France...), was what we call "second degre" (second degree). Not as in "second degree murder" - as in "there is a meaning that is not the first meaning that you see, but its opposite". I.e. C.H. would represent very frequently the true and bare-faced ideas that their ideological opponents were/are trying to "window dress" to look "respectable". For instance when they drew Christiane Taubira as a monkey and wrote "Rassemblement Bleu Raciste" - Christiane Taubira is the Justice Minister who pushed forward the gay marriage law, and is black, so she was a double target for the far-right, and got constantly mocked by them as a monkey (old racist joke...), but in a semi-hidden way ("dog whistles", you might say in the US). And Marine Le Pen was/is trying to look clean and respectable, with her "Rassemblement Bleu Marine". So C.H. went straight at their bullshit and exposed their ideas bare.
No one in France (or well, not many people at least) would understand it wrongly, because we are used to "second degre" (many of our jokes are based on it, much as we use the "antiphrase" when we want to praise something, as in "oh, this wine is REALLY bad", with a wink, when you are tasting some fantastic vintage with your friends), and also we know where C.H. stands politically, so we know how to interpret their jokes. So it is with humour: you often need the context and the codes to understand it. Otherwise you end up like the official Chinese media which, repeatedly, has taken "Onion" articles as "real" articles. C.H. is and was a bit like the Onion, indeed - just more politically biased (far-left), more brutal, more obscene, and low tech.
C.H. was and is gross - in comparison with the US, I think we French people tend to like a lot of "gross" stuff - strange cheese, giblets, snails, and dirty humour. Political correctness is frowned upon. And left-wing-anarchism, while not being significant in elections (of course! anarchists don't really tend to stand in elections!), is a significant intellectual tradition. And I did not always like having too much of that style of humour - I read more often the Canard Enchaine, which is harsh but less obscene. However, Charlie's leading cartoonists were also major authors, commanding a variety of styles and levels of jokes, and I read lots of their other work. They were great satirists, and they were sincere, engaged, militant supporters of open borders, open thinking, human rights etc. Calling them racists is an absurdity that is really offensive.
Oh and since I am at it, another point of major misunderstanding between Americans and French seems to be our restrictions on free speech vs. US's 1st Amendment total free speech. I have read stuff as absurd as "France's blasphemy law", and generally US writers seem to completely misunderstand (a) what the law actually forbids and (b) why it exists. So, briefly: (a) French law forbids (i) direct appeals to hatred and violence based on race [it does NOT forbid making brutal fun of people, and it does not cover religion, except if you call to violence against a community] and (ii) negation of crimes against humanity (mostly, this covers the jewish and roma genocides in WWII, but the law covers any other officially sanctioned crime against humanity) - in short, you can make fun of any religion all you want, and even make fun of any community all you want, but not call to murder and hatred --- (b) why? well, we have direct experience of where certain speech can lead. This is you could say a cost/benefit consideration - you lose some free speech, you may however limit the spread/prevalence of certain extremely harmful ideas. I have not seen any meaningful studies comparing for instance France and the US to see which effect total free speech vs. somewhat restrained free speech had on hate crimes etc. Would be complex, but interesting. I am not saying here that I strongly support one or the other - I am divided on this. But I am just saying that (1) the restriction is narrow, not a "blasphemy law" and (2) it has some strong rational justification in particular in history... Lambasting it is OK if you have serious arguments, but not just because of ignorance. As examples: C.H. was found innocent by courts of offenses against religion (mostly not covered). It was also attacked by Marine Le Pen and her father (each time they lost). But if you say "arabs are a noxious people and we should send them to the sea" or "roma are evil and Hitler did not kill enough" (it has been said...), then you fall under the law. And as a coda, it is annoying to see the same people (in some cases) screaming about "so many antisemitic attacks in France" (I read one that went as far as saying it was as bad as Germany 80 years ago...I mean, SERIOUSLY!?) and also sternly criticizing France for its legislation against antisemitism.
That was my remembrance of Charlie Hebdo, and in particular of Cabu and Wolinski, whom I have read f
for over 30 years. RIP.

Except that French people were offended by it. Hence, the massacre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CH was widely regarded by the French as hard left, anti-racist, anti-fascist, equal opportunity "mocker" -- which explains the outpouring of support. It looks like many Americans don't understand, and don't try to understand it, and are rushing to judgment.

Maybe Westerners just don't understand female genital mutilation, (which is regarded as pro-female by its proponents/practitioners), and the West is rushing to judgement?

We all see the world through the prisms of our own cultures and experiences. I can deem CH as sickening while still decrying the slaughter

you may find CH cartoons sickening because you do not understand them. most of them are satirical comments on current French events people in the US know nothing about and judge without understanding. the person who wrote the blog in the link poster by OP appears to be in bad faith instead, trying to depict as racists cartoons that are not (and then going on talking about "the Whites" oppressing others and so on).

the cartoon of the monkey with the face of a black woman, that may a racist cartoon without any background, was actually a strongly anti-racist cartoon and a satirical critique of the racism of the Front National party, that had compared a black French cabinet member to a monkey. the cartoon is clearly recognized by French people, who understand the references in the cartoon and its background, as satirical mockery of the racism of the Front National. I found this post that explains maybe more clearly. http://67-tardis-street.tumblr.com/post/107589955860/dear-us-followers . the cartoon about the Boko Haram kidnapped girls as welfare queens has a similar origin, put together different issues that were discussed in France, is far from a racist statement that victims of sex crime are happy welfare queens.

I saw many other cartoons that non-French mistook for racists because they did not understand them.

What are you talking about. Of course French people of color are offended by them. What makes you think they are not?

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:"Consider also the "thought experiment" offered by the Oxford philosopher Brian Klug. Imagine, he writes, if a man had joined the "unity rally" in Paris on 11 January "wearing a badge that said 'Je suis Chérif'" - the first name of one of the Charlie Hebdo gunmen. Suppose, Klug adds, he carried a placard with a cartoon mocking the murdered journalists. "How would the crowd have reacted?... Would they have seen this lone individual as a hero, standing up for liberty and freedom of speech? Or would they have been profoundly offended?" Do you disagree with Klug's conclusion that the man "would have been lucky to get away with his life"? "

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6462584

Yes. Your darling Dieudonne has already publicly said that "I am Charlie Coulibaly" and has compared the massacre in Paris to "a magic moment comparable to the Big Bang." He's doing fine and sends you hugs and kisses.

Right!!! That is why , after making that statement on Facebook btw, not at the unity march, he has been placed under investigation by the French government for inciting terrorism. Boom!!!! You need to be more up to date with current events. ......Fun fact, Dieudonne was also fined previously, by said government for saying that the Jews are the biggest crooks in the world $$

You mean he "published" something and didn't get hurt??? Fancy that...

He's also been under investigation for a while for tax fraud and misuse of corporate assets.

Just curious, why did you add the $$ sign after your paraphrase?

You are a hypocrite if you have been defending the absolutism of Free speech laws in France while applauding when Dieudonne's speech has been limited over the past year. He is a satirical comedian like CH, who was very popular and made fun of everyone till he made fun of the Jews and was deemed anti-Semitic. He said "the biggest crooks in the world are the Jews" and got Fined. He has had multitude of shows canceled by the French government and more than 80 judicial cases with them, so yeh his right to freedom of speech is actually being threatened by the government. So , You Defender of Speech, should be right there with him marching along him and saying #JesuisDieudonne

People sued Charlie Hebdo too. No one shot Dieudonne. Hypocrite.

The French government Stopped Dieudonne, they didn't stop CH, if you don't get that, I can't help you.

How did they stop him? He's been spewing shit for years and as recently as last week. Most governments do limit speech that is explicitly encouraging killing people.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:"Consider also the "thought experiment" offered by the Oxford philosopher Brian Klug. Imagine, he writes, if a man had joined the "unity rally" in Paris on 11 January "wearing a badge that said 'Je suis Chérif'" - the first name of one of the Charlie Hebdo gunmen. Suppose, Klug adds, he carried a placard with a cartoon mocking the murdered journalists. "How would the crowd have reacted?... Would they have seen this lone individual as a hero, standing up for liberty and freedom of speech? Or would they have been profoundly offended?" Do you disagree with Klug's conclusion that the man "would have been lucky to get away with his life"? "

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6462584

Yes. Your darling Dieudonne has already publicly said that "I am Charlie Coulibaly" and has compared the massacre in Paris to "a magic moment comparable to the Big Bang." He's doing fine and sends you hugs and kisses.

Right!!! That is why , after making that statement on Facebook btw, not at the unity march, he has been placed under investigation by the French government for inciting terrorism. Boom!!!! You need to be more up to date with current events. ......Fun fact, Dieudonne was also fined previously, by said government for saying that the Jews are the biggest crooks in the world $$

You mean he "published" something and didn't get hurt??? Fancy that...

He's also been under investigation for a while for tax fraud and misuse of corporate assets.

Just curious, why did you add the $$ sign after your paraphrase?

You are a hypocrite if you have been defending the absolutism of Free speech laws in France while applauding when Dieudonne's speech has been limited over the past year. He is a satirical comedian like CH, who was very popular and made fun of everyone till he made fun of the Jews and was deemed anti-Semitic. He said "the biggest crooks in the world are the Jews" and got Fined. He has had multitude of shows canceled by the French government and more than 80 judicial cases with them, so yeh his right to freedom of speech is actually being threatened by the government. So , You Defender of Speech, should be right there with him marching along him and saying #JesuisDieudonne

People sued Charlie Hebdo too. No one shot Dieudonne. Hypocrite.

The French government Stopped Dieudonne, they didn't stop CH, if you don't get that, I can't help you.

Oh, hon, I don't need your help. I have quite a clear grasp on this and what you are.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:"Consider also the "thought experiment" offered by the Oxford philosopher Brian Klug. Imagine, he writes, if a man had joined the "unity rally" in Paris on 11 January "wearing a badge that said 'Je suis Chérif'" - the first name of one of the Charlie Hebdo gunmen. Suppose, Klug adds, he carried a placard with a cartoon mocking the murdered journalists. "How would the crowd have reacted?... Would they have seen this lone individual as a hero, standing up for liberty and freedom of speech? Or would they have been profoundly offended?" Do you disagree with Klug's conclusion that the man "would have been lucky to get away with his life"? "

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6462584

Yes. Your darling Dieudonne has already publicly said that "I am Charlie Coulibaly" and has compared the massacre in Paris to "a magic moment comparable to the Big Bang." He's doing fine and sends you hugs and kisses.

Right!!! That is why , after making that statement on Facebook btw, not at the unity march, he has been placed under investigation by the French government for inciting terrorism. Boom!!!! You need to be more up to date with current events. ......Fun fact, Dieudonne was also fined previously, by said government for saying that the Jews are the biggest crooks in the world $$

You mean he "published" something and didn't get hurt??? Fancy that...

He's also been under investigation for a while for tax fraud and misuse of corporate assets.

Just curious, why did you add the $$ sign after your paraphrase?

You are a hypocrite if you have been defending the absolutism of Free speech laws in France while applauding when Dieudonne's speech has been limited over the past year. He is a satirical comedian like CH, who was very popular and made fun of everyone till he made fun of the Jews and was deemed anti-Semitic. He said "the biggest crooks in the world are the Jews" and got Fined. He has had multitude of shows canceled by the French government and more than 80 judicial cases with them, so yeh his right to freedom of speech is actually being threatened by the government. So , You Defender of Speech, should be right there with him marching along him and saying #JesuisDieudonne

People sued Charlie Hebdo too. No one shot Dieudonne. Hypocrite.

The French government Stopped Dieudonne, they didn't stop CH, if you don't get that, I can't help you.

How did they stop him? He's been spewing shit for years and as recently as last week. Most governments do limit speech that is explicitly encouraging killing people.

Have the decency to be honest, at least! Dieudonne's shows have been banned across France repeatedly. He is basically a standup comic who can no longer perform freely. Last year:

The government this week ordered concert halls across France to cancel shows to be performed by Dieudonné M'bala M'bala on the grounds that he represents a threat to public order.

Source : http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304347904579308710662277206

Thirty-eight times in recent years the French authorities have charged the comedian Dieudonné M’bala M’bala with violating anti-hate laws. The government has urged cities and towns to ban his performances, and some have done so, canceling his sold-out shows. Senior officials have condemned him as an anti-Semitic Holocaust denier who is inciting hatred.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/world/europe/for-hateful-comic-in-france-muzzle-becomes-a-megaphone.html?_r=0

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:"Consider also the "thought experiment" offered by the Oxford philosopher Brian Klug. Imagine, he writes, if a man had joined the "unity rally" in Paris on 11 January "wearing a badge that said 'Je suis Chérif'" - the first name of one of the Charlie Hebdo gunmen. Suppose, Klug adds, he carried a placard with a cartoon mocking the murdered journalists. "How would the crowd have reacted?... Would they have seen this lone individual as a hero, standing up for liberty and freedom of speech? Or would they have been profoundly offended?" Do you disagree with Klug's conclusion that the man "would have been lucky to get away with his life"? "

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6462584

Yes. Your darling Dieudonne has already publicly said that "I am Charlie Coulibaly" and has compared the massacre in Paris to "a magic moment comparable to the Big Bang." He's doing fine and sends you hugs and kisses.

Right!!! That is why , after making that statement on Facebook btw, not at the unity march, he has been placed under investigation by the French government for inciting terrorism. Boom!!!! You need to be more up to date with current events. ......Fun fact, Dieudonne was also fined previously, by said government for saying that the Jews are the biggest crooks in the world $$

Because he's deliberately trying to incite terrorism. And yet, no one has shot him, have they? Hmmm....
Btw, I don't believe that you are who you say you are. And I think you're tacitly endorsing these killings.

NP here. Why would Dieudonne be shot when govt has already taken care of the issue by fining him? Confused.
Govt. protected the jews right to be not called crooks, the same govt didn't protect muslims right when their religious figure was mocked in a series of pornographic cartoons. Satire and freedom of speech, my ass. Such a double standard islamophobic govt. and public has.

Also, I have seen Muslima condemning the killings plenty of times, why can't you guys see it?

[Anonymous]

A very easy and quick search yields some remarks by Dieudonne -- some in serious interviews, not only in performances:

"I don't choose between Jews and Nazis. I am neutral about that issue. Who provoqued whom? Who stole from whom?"

"Anti semitic acts don't exists "

About Anders Breivik, who killed 77 kids in Norway: "He is a rising star of Jewish - Masonic productions. Look at his Masonic apron -- which, by the way, has the same colors as the Israeli flag."

Referring to a Jewish journalists who criticized his shows : "When I hear talk of Patrick Cohen, I say to myself, you know, the gas chambers... A pity."

One punch line is to mention "Shoananas" - a mix of the Hebrew word for the Holocaust and the word "pineapple", while his assistant on stage is wearing a yellow star Nazis forced Jews to wear playing pineapple shaped maracas.

All while doing his trademark "quenelle" gesture -- a modified Nazi salute.

The latest: a few days he compared the terrorist attacks to "a magic moment like the big bang" and said "I am Charlie Coulibaly" (Coulibaly is the guy who killed four Jews in the kosher market."

[Anonymous]

By the way, it has been revealed that Dieudonne has close links with far right wing extremists like Alain Soral, simpatizers of Marine Le Pen's Front National.

[Anonymous]

But Dieudonne just a satirical comedian, like any other, according to some in this forum.

[Muslima]

There. You just drew a line on FREEDOM of speech. Why do you get to draw the line on what is acceptable and unacceptable? Why can I insult, satire and deeply offend billions of Muslims & Christians but I can't do the same to holocaust survivors? Because they're more offended by it? Ridiculous, a complete hypocritical definition of 'freedom of speech! If you are going to have freedom of speech to insult the prophet of Islam, then you do have a right to say anything you want about the Holocaust, no matter how much offense you or anyone else takes with it.