FCPS Proposal to close down AAP Centers at Greenbriar West ES and Carson MS

[Anonymous]

But you see, all is NOT well. These kids may be out of sight out of mind to those at the base school, but not so much for those of us whose base school is the center. We're the ones having to put up with the massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP. Enough already.

I don't know about your school, but at our center with the exception of the current fourth grade class where the feeder schools sent entire classes of 20-30 kids to the center, usually the feeder schools send between 6-12 kids per grade to the center. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

The vast majority of kids at our level IV center school are actually kids who live in the immediate neighborhood and are zoned for the center school, whether or not they are AAP or not.

Their parents either anticipated that their child would be placed in AAP, coincidentally got placed in AAP, or hoped they would be in AAP and bought houses in the center zones specifically for the center.

With the exception of that one crazy year when so many more kids than normal qualified for AAP, there are not "massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP".

The kids are already at the school as their base school because their parents bought houses in the center zone specifically for the AAP center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The drama as it stands now is limited to certain schools at certain parts of the county.

It is certainly not widespread, and in most areas it is really just limited to the time in the spring right around results, or just at the center schools.

For most people and at most schools in this county AAP drama and controversy is completely off the radar.

You realize you are posting this in a forum that had to be specifically carved out of the VA Schools forum because of the constant drama, right?

Putting a LLIV at every school 100% guarantees the drama becomes widespread and long term. It is borrowing trouble where there is none

Yeah, I think that ship has sailed.

Maybe your school and your part of the county, but not elsewhere and not to the degree that it happens on this forum.

How many AAP centers are in the county? Elementary? Middle School?

To read the AAP forum, one would think that there are about two, maybe three AAP middle schools county wide, and maybe 4-6 AAP center elementary schools. According to this forum, ALL of them are full of drama, backstabbing, bullying, mean competitive overstressed kids and crazy out of control tiger parents, and all of them are hated passionately by the entire general ed population. All of them are primarily in one part of the county.

There is one elementary that is mentioned here from time to time in a mostly positive light. In fact, I have not seen any drama filled or disparaging posts about that school or between its parents. There are a handful of schools in other parts of the county where parents might post a question about the program and receive 1-6 helpful and courteous responses. None of the schools mentioned occasionally or with only neutral or positive comments are from the part of the county with the schools alluded to above.

So no, the AAP program is not a source of constant drama, bitterness and backstabbing. No, it is not this terrible, cut throat program ruining Fairfax County Public Schools. No, most of the general ed population does not hate the AAP population, and no, the AAP kids and parents are not swooping in trying to destroy the lovely neighborhood schools that the county has foisted them on. And no, most of the parents, AAP and non AAP, spend hour after hour obsessing over who was prepped, who was not or who is "truly gifted" and "deserving" of AAP.

In fact, other than when the placement decisions come in, AAP is completely off the radar for the majority of parents in Fairfax County.

I am very sorry that your school and area is not the way that most of the county is. It must be a very stressful way to live to have that much vitrol and drama over an elementary school program and placement decision that may or may not affect your child.

Not the PP, but I couldn't disagree more, especially with your assertion that "AAP is completely off the radar for the majority of parents in Fairfax County". How nice for you that your school is a happy place with no AAP drama. For those of us who DO have to put up with this nonsense, however, we would be very appreciative if FCPS would do something - anything - to help us get our community schools back. If that means dismantling centers in certain areas of the county in which there are tons of AAP kids at all the base schools (Haycock, Colvin Run, Louise Archer, etc.), then so be it. Sending these kids back to their base schools would be a huge relief for those of us who DO have to contend with this very divisive issue.

Thank you for proving my point. Again, it is the handful of schools that are filled with the most drama, the ones that get mentioned over and over and over.

What works as a solution for your overcrowded, drama and stress filled, tiger parent, invasive out of control AAP kids schools in your part of the county and the infighting that you are dealing with is a very different experience from many in other parts of the county. Just as you can't apply what works best in for example the Lorton schools to Haycock, you also cannot use Haycock at the only standard for how things should be in the rest of the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But you see, all is NOT well. These kids may be out of sight out of mind to those at the base school, but not so much for those of us whose base school is the center. We're the ones having to put up with the massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP. Enough already.

I don't know about your school, but at our center with the exception of the current fourth grade class where the feeder schools sent entire classes of 20-30 kids to the center, usually the feeder schools send between 6-12 kids per grade to the center. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

The vast majority of kids at our level IV center school are actually kids who live in the immediate neighborhood and are zoned for the center school, whether or not they are AAP or not.

Their parents either anticipated that their child would be placed in AAP, coincidentally got placed in AAP, or hoped they would be in AAP and bought houses in the center zones specifically for the center.

With the exception of that one crazy year when so many more kids than normal qualified for AAP, there are not "massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP".

The kids are already at the school as their base school because their parents bought houses in the center zone specifically for the AAP center.

That is incorrect for so many of us who already lived in an established neighborhood when either the center school was built years later, or a community school was later made into a center. You can't just assume people buy houses intentionally in center zones just so their kids will be in AAP. Often, the center plops itself on down, whether or not it's welcome or invited.

And that "one crazy year" has impacted my DC's grade (yes, 4th) so much that the Gen Ed students are almost nonexistent. It's ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not an AAP magnet school? Then there would be no centers in neighborhood schools and no LLIV. The AAP madness could be confined to one or two all AAP schools.

Interesting concept - "TJ" for elementary and middle school for the truly gifted, everyone else back in their neighborhood school.

Makes too much sense to work.

+100 Especially if the magnet schools were limited to the "truly gifted" only.

+1000. Best Ideas I've heard about AAP. Clean and Simple. AAP Magnet Schools only with Level IV (aka Center placed) students. Cheaper to transport (Hubs like airports), no Principal favoritism stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not an AAP magnet school? Then there would be no centers in neighborhood schools and no LLIV. The AAP madness could be confined to one or two all AAP schools.

Interesting concept - "TJ" for elementary and middle school for the truly gifted, everyone else back in their neighborhood school.

Makes too much sense to work.

+100 Especially if the magnet schools were limited to the "truly gifted" only.

+1000. Best Ideas I've heard about AAP. Clean and Simple. AAP Magnet Schools only with Level IV (aka Center placed) students. Cheaper to transport (Hubs like airports), no Principal favoritism stuff.

Except that Level IV center students aren't the "truly gifted". So there's that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But you see, all is NOT well. These kids may be out of sight out of mind to those at the base school, but not so much for those of us whose base school is the center. We're the ones having to put up with the massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP. Enough already.

I don't know about your school, but at our center with the exception of the current fourth grade class where the feeder schools sent entire classes of 20-30 kids to the center, usually the feeder schools send between 6-12 kids per grade to the center. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

The vast majority of kids at our level IV center school are actually kids who live in the immediate neighborhood and are zoned for the center school, whether or not they are AAP or not.

Their parents either anticipated that their child would be placed in AAP, coincidentally got placed in AAP, or hoped they would be in AAP and bought houses in the center zones specifically for the center.

With the exception of that one crazy year when so many more kids than normal qualified for AAP, there are not "massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP".

The kids are already at the school as their base school because their parents bought houses in the center zone specifically for the AAP center.

That is incorrect for so many of us who already lived in an established neighborhood when either the center school was built years later, or a community school was later made into a center. You can't just assume people buy houses intentionally in center zones just so their kids will be in AAP. Often, the center plops itself on down, whether or not it's welcome or invited.

[i]And that "one crazy year" has impacted my DC's grade (yes, 4th) so much that the Gen Ed students are almost nonexistent. It's ridiculous.

Then why do the kids zoned for the center outnumber the kids coming in by feeder schools by such a significant number?

At our school, over half of the AAP kids from my child's grade alone are kids already zoned for the center. This is true for all the grades except for the current fourth grade.

Is it because the children zoned for the center are smarter and more gifted than all the other feeder schools combined by a 2-1 margin?

No.

It is because their parents chose to buy in the center school specifically for the center.

You might not have, but many people do indeed.

Heck, one of my child's classmates left our center school mid year because his parents bought a house at one of the big middle schools--I think the one that sends all the kids to TJ--specifically because they felt that center was better than our MS center and would maximize their kid's chance to get into TJ. I am certain there are many more parents just like them, who are moving to certain centers in droves specifically for the centers.

Are the homes in the Haycock or Longfellow boundaries so much better than the homes in all the other schools? No. Are people buying houses there because of the warm neighborhood school and the kind neighborly feel? No. Are they people who love that their kids get to experience school through a portable trailer classroom? Heck no.

They are moving there and paying a premium because of A) the center and B) the higher test scores that the center students bring to the school. That is why that school has enough kids to fill several AAP classes, with or without the feeder schools.

I am very sorry that your neighborhood school is not what you wanted it to be, but if numbers say anything than you are the exception and not the rule and many people are buying in your neighborhood because of the center school, or at least the high test scores that come with being a center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not an AAP magnet school? Then there would be no centers in neighborhood schools and no LLIV. The AAP madness could be confined to one or two all AAP schools.

Interesting concept - "TJ" for elementary and middle school for the truly gifted, everyone else back in their neighborhood school.

Makes too much sense to work.

+100 Especially if the magnet schools were limited to the "truly gifted" only.

+1000. Best Ideas I've heard about AAP. Clean and Simple. AAP Magnet Schools only with Level IV (aka Center placed) students. Cheaper to transport (Hubs like airports), no Principal favoritism stuff.

Except that Level IV center students aren't the "truly gifted". So there's that.

hmm. so you get Level V, Level VI, Level MCLXXX.... who are the really truly gifted? Center Placed are enough. Unless you want to brain scan the kids to see if there is a way to find more truly gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not an AAP magnet school? Then there would be no centers in neighborhood schools and no LLIV. The AAP madness could be confined to one or two all AAP schools.

Interesting concept - "TJ" for elementary and middle school for the truly gifted, everyone else back in their neighborhood school.

Makes too much sense to work.

+100 Especially if the magnet schools were limited to the "truly gifted" only.

+1000. Best Ideas I've heard about AAP. Clean and Simple. AAP Magnet Schools only with Level IV (aka Center placed) students. Cheaper to transport (Hubs like airports), no Principal favoritism stuff.

Except that Level IV center students aren't the "truly gifted". So there's that.

hmm. so you get Level V, Level VI, Level MCLXXX.... who are the really truly gifted? Center Placed are enough. Unless you want to brain scan the kids to see if there is a way to find more truly gifted.

I disagree. It's been noted time and time again that the center placed students are often kids who didn't even meet the minimum test cutoff for in-pool, but instead were parent-referred or appealed. In what world are these kids "truly gifted"? There should be one basic minimum criteria for acceptance, period. And it needs to be a lot higher than it currently is to identify kids who are actually highly gifted and - here's the most important part - actually "in need" of a different educational program. That pool, if it is ever to exist, will be far smaller than the current AAP masses.

[Anonymous]

I truly wish the center went back to its roots and became much smaller. Then it would serve the truly gifted (it's not great at that now with the wide range of abilities in it) and it wouldn't be so divisive. Unfortunately, FCPS seems to be unwilling to make the requirements more stringent and instead seems to want to give up the program by phasing out centers and only offering LLIV. LLIV is not the same as the center and will do even worse than the current centers at meeting the needs of the truly gifted. It will also cause politics in each school that wouldn't be there with a central screening process. It is a huge mistake and will lead to the a much diminished reputation for Fairfax schools and all the economic consequences that result from that. I think Dr. garza is all about the achievement gap and not about meeting the needs of each student, whatever they may be. That's what we get for hiring someone from Texas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not an AAP magnet school? Then there would be no centers in neighborhood schools and no LLIV. The AAP madness could be confined to one or two all AAP schools.

Interesting concept - "TJ" for elementary and middle school for the truly gifted, everyone else back in their neighborhood school.

Makes too much sense to work.

+100 Especially if the magnet schools were limited to the "truly gifted" only.

+1000. Best Ideas I've heard about AAP. Clean and Simple. AAP Magnet Schools only with Level IV (aka Center placed) students. Cheaper to transport (Hubs like airports), no Principal favoritism stuff.

Except that Level IV center students aren't the "truly gifted". So there's that.

hmm. so you get Level V, Level VI, Level MCLXXX.... who are the really truly gifted? Center Placed are enough. Unless you want to brain scan the kids to see if there is a way to find more truly gifted.

Sounds like our local soccer travel team tiers. There are now 5 tiers of soccer just for elementary school students. Because of course every kid must play (or work in this case) at the same level as everyone else they come in contact with. God forbid someone is better than them that they can learn from or beneath them that they can be a leader for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I truly wish the center went back to its roots and became much smaller. Then it would serve the truly gifted (it's not great at that now with the wide range of abilities in it) and it wouldn't be so divisive. Unfortunately, FCPS seems to be unwilling to make the requirements more stringent and instead seems to want to give up the program by phasing out centers and only offering LLIV. LLIV is not the same as the center and will do even worse than the current centers at meeting the needs of the truly gifted. It will also cause politics in each school that wouldn't be there with a central screening process. It is a huge mistake and will lead to the a much diminished reputation for Fairfax schools and all the economic consequences that result from that. I think Dr. garza is all about the achievement gap and not about meeting the needs of each student, whatever they may be. That's what we get for hiring someone from Texas.

I think the School Board is all about this too, so you can't blame that on her. If you go to or watch a Board meeting you'll see that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly wish the center went back to its roots and became much smaller. Then it would serve the truly gifted (it's not great at that now with the wide range of abilities in it) and it wouldn't be so divisive. Unfortunately, FCPS seems to be unwilling to make the requirements more stringent and instead seems to want to give up the program by phasing out centers and only offering LLIV. LLIV is not the same as the center and will do even worse than the current centers at meeting the needs of the truly gifted. It will also cause politics in each school that wouldn't be there with a central screening process. It is a huge mistake and will lead to the a much diminished reputation for Fairfax schools and all the economic consequences that result from that. I think Dr. garza is all about the achievement gap and not about meeting the needs of each student, whatever they may be. That's what we get for hiring someone from Texas.

I think the School Board is all about this too, so you can't blame that on her. If you go to or watch a Board meeting you'll see that.

I don't think either of you comes across as qualified to address what will enhance or detract from the reputation of FCPS or have larger, adverse economic consequences. So often, it just comes across as if people are arguing that the sky will fall unless they get exactly what they want for their own kids.

At the end of the day, schools are just one factor in the mix where Fairfax is concerned, along with other factors that include location (very good), job base (very good), housing mix (mixed), and local enforcement of occupancy/zoning requirements (poor).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But you see, all is NOT well. These kids may be out of sight out of mind to those at the base school, but not so much for those of us whose base school is the center. We're the ones having to put up with the massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP. Enough already.

I don't know about your school, but at our center with the exception of the current fourth grade class where the feeder schools sent entire classes of 20-30 kids to the center, usually the feeder schools send between 6-12 kids per grade to the center. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

The vast majority of kids at our level IV center school are actually kids who live in the immediate neighborhood and are zoned for the center school, whether or not they are AAP or not.

Their parents either anticipated that their child would be placed in AAP, coincidentally got placed in AAP, or hoped they would be in AAP and bought houses in the center zones specifically for the center.

With the exception of that one crazy year when so many more kids than normal qualified for AAP, there are not "massive amounts of kids coming every year for AAP".

The kids are already at the school as their base school because their parents bought houses in the center zone specifically for the AAP center.

That is incorrect for so many of us who already lived in an established neighborhood when either the center school was built years later, or a community school was later made into a center. You can't just assume people buy houses intentionally in center zones just so their kids will be in AAP. Often, the center plops itself on down, whether or not it's welcome or invited.

[i]And that "one crazy year" has impacted my DC's grade (yes, 4th) so much that the Gen Ed students are almost nonexistent. It's ridiculous.

Then why do the kids zoned for the center outnumber the kids coming in by feeder schools by such a significant number?

At our school, over half of the AAP kids from my child's grade alone are kids already zoned for the center. This is true for all the grades except for the current fourth grade.

Is it because the children zoned for the center are smarter and more gifted than all the other feeder schools combined by a 2-1 margin?

No.

It is because their parents chose to buy in the center school specifically for the center.

You might not have, but many people do indeed.

Heck, one of my child's classmates left our center school mid year because his parents bought a house at one of the big middle schools--I think the one that sends all the kids to TJ--specifically because they felt that center was better than our MS center and would maximize their kid's chance to get into TJ. I am certain there are many more parents just like them, who are moving to certain centers in droves specifically for the centers.

Are the homes in the Haycock or Longfellow boundaries so much better than the homes in all the other schools? No. Are people buying houses there because of the warm neighborhood school and the kind neighborly feel? No. Are they people who love that their kids get to experience school through a portable trailer classroom? Heck no.

They are moving there and paying a premium because of A) the center and B) the higher test scores that the center students bring to the school. That is why that school has enough kids to fill several AAP classes, with or without the feeder schools.

I am very sorry that your neighborhood school is not what you wanted it to be, but if numbers say anything than you are the exception and not the rule and many people are buying in your neighborhood because of the center school, or at least the high test scores that come with being a center.

Actually the vast majority that I know, seeing as I live in the Longfellow district, is that people move here primarily because of the commute and access to metro- for Haycock. The area is commutable to 270, Dulles corridor, Capriol Hill, Crystal City, Tyson's. It works great for dual working families where one works in reston and one works in Bethesda. It works great if your place of work moves (unless they move to Greenbelt- then it sucks). It works great to find a new job. They want decent schools, yes- but there are decent school all over the metro area and throughout Fairfax. This is what drives the market more than anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly wish the center went back to its roots and became much smaller. Then it would serve the truly gifted (it's not great at that now with the wide range of abilities in it) and it wouldn't be so divisive. Unfortunately, FCPS seems to be unwilling to make the requirements more stringent and instead seems to want to give up the program by phasing out centers and only offering LLIV. LLIV is not the same as the center and will do even worse than the current centers at meeting the needs of the truly gifted. It will also cause politics in each school that wouldn't be there with a central screening process. It is a huge mistake and will lead to the a much diminished reputation for Fairfax schools and all the economic consequences that result from that. I think Dr. garza is all about the achievement gap and not about meeting the needs of each student, whatever they may be. That's what we get for hiring someone from Texas.

I think the School Board is all about this too, so you can't blame that on her. If you go to or watch a Board meeting you'll see that.

"Meeting the needs of students" is a lower bar than many parents expect. This is where there is a disconnect. Smart kids' needs can usually be met in the traditional classroom. What parents want is what is "best" for their children. There is a gap between what a child "needs" to be successful and what would be 'best' for a child.

What would qualify as a "need" for a "truly" gifted child? How do you define "truly gifted" from super bright?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly wish the center went back to its roots and became much smaller. Then it would serve the truly gifted (it's not great at that now with the wide range of abilities in it) and it wouldn't be so divisive. Unfortunately, FCPS seems to be unwilling to make the requirements more stringent and instead seems to want to give up the program by phasing out centers and only offering LLIV. LLIV is not the same as the center and will do even worse than the current centers at meeting the needs of the truly gifted. It will also cause politics in each school that wouldn't be there with a central screening process. It is a huge mistake and will lead to the a much diminished reputation for Fairfax schools and all the economic consequences that result from that. I think Dr. garza is all about the achievement gap and not about meeting the needs of each student, whatever they may be. That's what we get for hiring someone from Texas.

I think the School Board is all about this too, so you can't blame that on her. If you go to or watch a Board meeting you'll see that.

I don't think either of you comes across as qualified to address what will enhance or detract from the reputation of FCPS or have larger, adverse economic consequences. So often, it just comes across as if people are arguing that the sky will fall unless they get exactly what they want for their own kids.

At the end of the day, schools are just one factor in the mix where Fairfax is concerned, along with other factors that include location (very good), job base (very good), housing mix (mixed), and local enforcement of occupancy/zoning requirements (poor).

I completely agree. The parents arguing that "the sky will fall" (as you so aptly put it) are those who are happy with the status quo because it benefits their child. Fairfax County will always attract families for its job opportunities, location, and schools - even if centers no longer exist and AAP is vastly downsized. Perhaps then more resources will be available for the general education students.