Question for atheists RE: 9/11

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to be near death to have a near death experience. It has happened to pilots enduring high G forces. It happened to me when I was being attacked, but had no serious injury. It can happen during traumatic events. It appears to be a brain function related to disassociation.

Did you get the whole thing? Leaving your body and being able to describe in great detail what happened while you were unconscious; the dark tunnel, the silver chord, the indescribable bright light and sensation of love beyond anything you had ever experienced in your lifetime; visiting with loved ones who were already dead; etc, etc. Even children as young as 3 years old report the same experiences. It's hard to explain the similarities away when you consider the details provided by some of these children about medical things that were done to them when they were supposedly dead. Sometimes they visit with dead relatives they have never met before. A brain function is just a theory. I can certainly understand why atheists and skeptics don't want to believe this. I am not saying they are proof of an afterlife but they are very interesting to consider.

I never had a near death experience, but I came back to my faith when I had a single, solitary moment of that love. Perhaps my personal experience means nothing to the skeptics out there, but I'll share it anyway: I was at the end of my physical, emotional, and mental rope. I had not given God a thought for years, except maybe to hate Him if He did exist. I was a mean wife and a bad mother. One night, I stopped at a campus shrine (agnostic husband was attending grad school at a Catholic university) and knelt down and said something like "God, if you are there, and I don't know if you are, I am falling apart. If you can help me, I'm willing to listen." Suddenly, the candles swam together in this iridescent, beautifully warm light, and I felt LOVE...beyond description, beyond imagination. I was overcome by it. I felt so cherished.

For a person who had been filled with self-hatred, who had acted out self-destructively for more than a decade, who had lashed out at the people who loved me most and hated life, I promise you, I could not have manufactured that feeling with my brain cells. It was a Higher Power. And that was the beginning of the return to my faith.

Just my story. That's all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yesterday, I heard the audio clips that were played at the only trial for a co-conspirator for 9/11. They were so haunting, and chilling.

I wonder...how do atheists process the tragedy? Those victims who screamed "Oh God" as they died...did they just cease to exist? All those innocent lives lost...were they just snuffed out, no justice, no peace?

IMO - death is like before we were conceived. Simple non existence. It wasn't so bad then was it?

There's no evidence for any afterlife, so I don't believe an afterlife exists. And I wonder how people handle the belief that the victims that didn't believe in _____ (fill in the blank) are burning in hell.

Unless you consider "near death experiences" evidence. Which I do. And I know, I know... Some scientists will say that this is the brain reacting to lack of oxygen. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But I think the similarities between near-death experiences, especially in small children, are difficult to ignore.

I don't. Mostly because it does have a scientific explanation and because if people supposedly see more then their life flash before their eyes and a flash of light it often reflects the beliefs they are exposed to or already believe in. And of course, sometimes the supposed stories are not credible either.

Okay, fine Mrs Smarty-Pants, but how do you explain the mystical images that appear when you close your eyes and push the heels of your hands against your eyeballs? Some scientists will say this is merely your optical sensors reacting to pressure rather than light. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think the similarities between these phenomena, especially in small children, are difficult to ignore.

It's funny, you walk through life meeting other adults, and assume they are rational adults with a capacity for logical thought. Then you scratch the surface and it's all, WTF?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and as far as your question: "If the atheists are right, why do most people walk around deluding themselves?"

Every single thing you've ever written on this topic answers your question. People love to hear pleasant-sounding myths, regardless of whether they're true or not. And they have very, very little self-awareness.

Is arrogance a virtue to atheists?

Atheists aren't the ones who claim to know all the answers (ask a non-theist what came before the Big Bang, then ask a theist), or in the case of Pope Benedict, claim to inherit the mantle of St Paul, passed down literally from the Son of God's hand. So, no, atheists aren't the arrogant ones.

Catholics claim only God knows all the answers. But He entrusted His Church with the answers we needed to know Him as well as we can. His truth can be found in all places and times and peoples...but the fullness of truth is God's alone.

[Anonymous]

I don't claim to have all the answers. But I experienced a near death experience after being electrocuted. I was clinically dead. The power of my experience changed my life forever. I didn't see any dead relatives. But I did have a sense of overwhelming peace. And my perceptions of God were very strange. I was raised to think of God as a Father. Instead, my feelings for God were more maternal. I remember looking up, smiling, and saying "I've known you forever". And I remember that I wanted to stay in that place.

The entire experience was something that I could never adequately put into words. I've never felt so safe and so loved. Everything about the experience was right. God was a mother figure. But not necessarily female. It felt like my soul was going home. And that home was a place that I had lived in for much longer than the time I spent on earth. I also remember the feeling of violently returning to my body. Once I recovered, I was so thankful to be alive. But at the same time grateful for the experience.

Sounds crazy. And I wish I could describe it better. But I no longer fear death. I want to remain on this earth because I love my husband and my children. I want to grow old with my husband. And I want to be around to see my kids and grandkids grow up. But I know that something amazing is waiting on the other side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're assuming those stories are true and credible to begin with. Are they telling the truth? If so, did it happen while they were dead or was it a dream or while semi-conscious?

I'm very, very skeptical of claims of visiting the afterlife while supposedly dead. For some, it seems to be an attention seeking and/or money making ploy.

My mother died, in a hospital, when she was pregnant with my younger brother. Her experience was one she seldom spoke of, only to a limited few people, and only when asked. It was one of inexplicable joy, peace and love, and yes, the light. I think she was sent back because her purpose in life had not yet been fulfilled.

Later in life she experienced a heart surgery in which the doctor was unable to restart her heart. Every attempt resulted in cardiac arrest. He tried repeatedly beyond anything that made sense, and when they brought a priest in to give her final blessing, her heart restarted mid-prayer without any medical assistance. The priest came to us shaken and inspired that he had witnessed a miracle, the surgeon felt the same way.

Perhaps it was just physics and science, but the non-Christian doctor, his surgical team and the priest in the room could not explain what happened that day and felt it was the hand of God. I know it was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't claim to have all the answers. But I experienced a near death experience after being electrocuted. I was clinically dead. The power of my experience changed my life forever. I didn't see any dead relatives. But I did have a sense of overwhelming peace. And my perceptions of God were very strange. I was raised to think of God as a Father. Instead, my feelings for God were more maternal. I remember looking up, smiling, and saying "I've known you forever". And I remember that I wanted to stay in that place.

The entire experience was something that I could never adequately put into words. I've never felt so safe and so loved. Everything about the experience was right. God was a mother figure. But not necessarily female. It felt like my soul was going home. And that home was a place that I had lived in for much longer than the time I spent on earth. I also remember the feeling of violently returning to my body. Once I recovered, I was so thankful to be alive. But at the same time grateful for the experience.

Sounds crazy. And I wish I could describe it better. But I no longer fear death. I want to remain on this earth because I love my husband and my children. I want to grow old with my husband. And I want to be around to see my kids and grandkids grow up. But I know that something amazing is waiting on the other side.

21:38 here. Thank you for sharing. This post made me cry as it is very similar to what my mother experienced and shared with me years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and as far as your question: "If the atheists are right, why do most people walk around deluding themselves?"

Every single thing you've ever written on this topic answers your question. People love to hear pleasant-sounding myths, regardless of whether they're true or not. And they have very, very little self-awareness.

Is arrogance a virtue to atheists?

Atheists aren't the ones who claim to know all the answers (ask a non-theist what came before the Big Bang, then ask a theist), or in the case of Pope Benedict, claim to inherit the mantle of St Paul, passed down literally from the Son of God's hand. So, no, atheists aren't the arrogant ones.

Catholics claim only God knows all the answers. But He entrusted His Church with the answers we needed to know Him as well as we can. His truth can be found in all places and times and peoples...but the fullness of truth is God's alone.

It's funny, I stopped responding to the old "Why Don't You Believe in God?" thread because I realized that OP wasn't engaging in the dialogue in good faith, and that I was merely an unwitting supernumerary to an exercise in self-indulgence. Both threads are eerily similar in the sense that they seem to exist for the dual purposes of providing a platform for prosthelytizing and the heady rush that comes from painting oneself as a persecuted religious believer.

Life is too precious and fleeting to me to indulge OP.

In any case, these two videos sum up my thoughts on the various issues at hand:

This is your argument...

...and this is the argument we hear you making...

[Anonymous]

It's interesting that the love and peace of a NDE brought some people closer to their faith and let me away from my own. I guess it all affects us a little differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to be near death to have a near death experience. It has happened to pilots enduring high G forces. It happened to me when I was being attacked, but had no serious injury. It can happen during traumatic events. It appears to be a brain function related to disassociation.

Did you get the whole thing? Leaving your body and being able to describe in great detail what happened while you were unconscious; the dark tunnel, the silver chord, the indescribable bright light and sensation of love beyond anything you had ever experienced in your lifetime; visiting with loved ones who were already dead; etc, etc. Even children as young as 3 years old report the same experiences. It's hard to explain the similarities away when you consider the details provided by some of these children about medical things that were done to them when they were supposedly dead. Sometimes they visit with dead relatives they have never met before. A brain function is just a theory. I can certainly understand why atheists and skeptics don't want to believe this. I am not saying they are proof of an afterlife but they are very interesting to consider.

That's not really true. Lots of people don't see their dead relatives. You mean that SOME people experience this.

And atheists consider it so much that we study it in a lab.

Yes, that's true that there are variations. But the similarities are what makes these experiences most compelling. The "scientific" explanation seems no less difficult to swallow than the spiritual one. It is all beyond our understanding at this time. I am not a person who has "faith" in anything but I am also not a person who claims to know for a fact that nothing exists beyond that which we can hear, see, touch, smell or taste. To me, that type of belief system is as limiting as organized religion.

[Anonymous]

What a stupid thread. I'm glad I only read the first page.

[Anonymous]

I need a better link than that. None of the top ten things in the link discuss whether time has a beginning.

Oh, please. I'm assuming you're the "the universe came into being, therefore....God!" poster, so it's not like any "science-y cites" are going to bring you around. I think we had this conversation a few months ago, where you thought the fact that the Big Bang was proof of God's existence, whereas in fact you only proved that the Big Bang was proof of the Big Bang's existence.

God isn't complicated because St Augustine said so, right? Hilarious.


Jeez, no need to be nasty. Actually, I'm the "God is random chance" poster, which was meant to lampoon the "question for atheists" poster, who I assume is the same as the poster you're being so nasty about. Someone took me a bit too seriously (you?) and said my "proof" was based on a fallacy because time has no beginning, which seems nonsensical. But many things in the universe are nonsensical (like duality), so I'm happy to be informed. The poster provided a link, which I read, and I still have questions. My understanding is that time is a dimension of the universe that goes in one direction, and if you follow it back the other direction, all the way to the big bang, well, that's the beginning of time. I understand that "before" the beginning of time doesn't make much sense -- that was part of my original joke -- but why would someone say that time has no beginning? I'm very interested to know why.

[Anonymous]

Best thread on DCUM ever!

[Anonymous]

OP, I think it's more apalling to think there IS a god who allows things like 9/11, the Holocaust, mass famine in Africa, tsunamis and earthquakes....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's funny, I stopped responding to the old "Why Don't You Believe in God?" thread because I realized that OP wasn't engaging in the dialogue in good faith, and that I was merely an unwitting supernumerary to an exercise in self-indulgence. Both threads are eerily similar in the sense that they seem to exist for the dual purposes of providing a platform for prosthelytizing and the heady rush that comes from painting oneself as a persecuted religious believer.

Life is too precious and fleeting to me to indulge OP.

In any case, these two videos sum up my thoughts on the various issues at hand:

PP: I'm going to take my toys and leave!

Your response is just weird. Where do you see people "not engaging in good faith" (did you intend that pun)? Because I see lots of very personal stories here. Where do you see "self-indulgence," unless you define it as people relating these stories? I see as much "proseletyzing" by atheists as by believers -- In fact, I can show you quotes in this thread about "fairy tales" and "pleasant-sounding myths" (posted by you and not by the other atheists here, I'm going to guess). And where has anybody "painted herself as a persecuted religious believer" -- show me a single quote, please!

Nobody took your bait so far, and good for them. Because I can see what's coming, I'll say right here: asking you to document your rant is very different from taking your bait by responding to the so-called points of your rant.

Go away, Ranting Atheist. I'm just here to say that you're destroying a relatively (for this issue) constructive conversation about religion -- and cats -- between the other atheists and believers. FWIW, other atheists have asked you to leave before, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's funny, I stopped responding to the old "Why Don't You Believe in God?" thread because I realized that OP wasn't engaging in the dialogue in good faith, and that I was merely an unwitting supernumerary to an exercise in self-indulgence. Both threads are eerily similar in the sense that they seem to exist for the dual purposes of providing a platform for prosthelytizing and the heady rush that comes from painting oneself as a persecuted religious believer.

Life is too precious and fleeting to me to indulge OP.

In any case, these two videos sum up my thoughts on the various issues at hand:

PP: I'm going to take my toys and leave!

Your response is just weird. Where do you see people "not engaging in good faith" (did you intend that pun)? Because I see lots of very personal stories here. Where do you see "self-indulgence," unless you define it as people relating these stories? I see as much "proseletyzing" by atheists as by believers -- In fact, I can show you quotes in this thread about "fairy tales" and "pleasant-sounding myths" (posted by you and not by the other atheists here, I'm going to guess). And where has anybody "painted herself as a persecuted religious believer" -- show me a single quote, please!

Nobody took your bait so far, and good for them. Because I can see what's coming, I'll say right here: asking you to document your rant is very different from taking your bait by responding to the so-called points of your rant.

Go away, Ranting Atheist. I'm just here to say that you're destroying a relatively (for this issue) constructive conversation about religion -- and cats -- between the other atheists and believers. FWIW, other atheists have asked you to leave before, too.

Anyone who had the misfortune of responding to the "Why Don't You Believe In God?" thread is familiar with the parade of egocentrism masquerading as religiosity this thread is trending towards.