Question for atheists RE: 9/11

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, different poster than OP, but similar question to those who answered earlier. Have you lost anyone close to you? If so, do you never feel that the spirit of that person is with you? Having lost my mother, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around how one would deal with an intimate death experience with this belief structure. How would it affect the grief and recovery process? (I am specifically asking about a close death, not something like 9/11 or just the neighbor around the corner).

I can speak to this, a little bit, though I have to say that I don't speak for anyone other than myself. My grandmother, who I was very close to, died last fall. We are coming up on the one year anniversary of her death, and I think about it all the time. It is still really just so hard to believe that she is just gone. Never once since she died have I for a moment considered her to be "in heaven". She had cancer for 8 years. She was really sick. She was in a lot of pain. She was really tired. I believe that she is no longer sick, in pain, or tired. As for the idea of her soul going somewhere, I very much believe (and think that she would agree) that her soul lives on in her writing and the things that she passed down to her daughter (my mom), my siblings and me. We also set up a scholarship in her name at her alma mater, so her legacy of woman academic lives on in that way as well.

I guess I don't really understand how my grieving process would be different if I believed that my grandmother's soul was in heaven right now. She still wouldn't be HERE. I would still miss her every day.

Yes, but you would have hope that you would see her again.

I'm the poster you're quoting, and I guess I just don't think I would find that particularly comforting in the immediacy. I know that I will see my mom at Christmas time, but that doesn't change that I wish she was here, say, next weekend, to share a trip to the zoo with me and my daughter. The fact that she will be here in 4 months doesn't change my desire for her to be here for that particular experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

I think that you are reading too much into what happened that day. I tend to beleive that ordinary people are capable of extraordinary things under the right circumstances. I bet that if you took a long hard look at the backgrounds of the those who died you will likely see that they were just as flawed as each and every one of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Those victims who screamed "Oh God" as they died...did they just cease to exist?

Atheist here. The answer to your question for me is "yes." You cease to exist when you die.

You can scream anything you want and it doesn't change the outcome, in my belief paradigm.

Feel free to bait me with any further questions. I'll be similarly succinct.

So when you have a mind blowing orgasm you never say oh my god?

You are missing out...

Actually atheists can say oh my God freely. I use it as punctuation. But isn't it blasphemy for a believer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

Wow, I really don't understand this logic. Because people do terrible, unfathomable things there must be a god? Very strange reasoning. People can be very very bad on their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

I just don't see this. In a way, it takes the responsibility AWAY from the terrorists.

These were bad guys, agreed. I think there are reasons that people do terrible things -- sometimes it's mental illness, abuse, living in a pathological society, "brainwashing" by twisted views of religion or nationality, human weakness, selfishness ... and usually a combination of many of these things. But do I think the hijackers were taken over by some evil power other than themselves? No.

OK, maybe I didn't state this very well... I believe that they chose to follow the path of evil, rather than "taken over by it." But that still means that evil exists as an option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

I think that you are reading too much into what happened that day. I tend to beleive that ordinary people are capable of extraordinary things under the right circumstances. I bet that if you took a long hard look at the backgrounds of the those who died you will likely see that they were just as flawed as each and every one of us.

No doubt. But when presented with an option, some people chose "good" in the face of "evil." The hijackers had that option at one point, too, but they chose to go the other way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

I just don't see this. In a way, it takes the responsibility AWAY from the terrorists.

These were bad guys, agreed. I think there are reasons that people do terrible things -- sometimes it's mental illness, abuse, living in a pathological society, "brainwashing" by twisted views of religion or nationality, human weakness, selfishness ... and usually a combination of many of these things. But do I think the hijackers were taken over by some evil power other than themselves? No.

OK, maybe I didn't state this very well... I believe that they chose to follow the path of evil, rather than "taken over by it." But that still means that evil exists as an option.

Faith is a good thing. I kind of wish I had it sometimes. But belief in satan is just plain weird to me. Evil was invented by humans.

[TheManWithAUsername]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, every single terrorist I've ever heard of was a devout believer.

Very important point that is often forgotten by those who question atheists. What could motivate an atheist to commit such crimes (barring sheer insanity)?

Power. Arrogance. Feeling like they can get away with it, because there is no afterlife where justice will be done. Stalin, Mao. Nietzsche explained it.

Those aren't terrorists. Monstrous dictators come in all flavors.

There are probably some animal rights and ecoterrorists who atheists, but AFAIK, they don't usually aim to kill.

[Anonymous]

Faith is a good thing. I kind of wish I had it sometimes. But belief in satan is just plain weird to me. Evil was invented by humans.

Yes it was...but angels also have free will, just like humans, and some of them chose evil instead of good, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Faith is a good thing. I kind of wish I had it sometimes. But belief in satan is just plain weird to me. Evil was invented by humans.

Yes it was...but angels also have free will, just like humans, and some of them chose evil instead of good, too.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Doesn't really matter though so don't bother trying to explain. When you bring up angels and Satan, I'm completely lost. Just sayin'- I think that stuff is weird. And I'm the atheist PP who believes in an afterlife... on most days anyway.

[Anonymous]

The potential to do "evil" exists in all of us. Don't kid yourselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The potential to do "evil" exists in all of us. Don't kid yourselves.

Why does everyone keep putting "evil" in quotes?

[Anonymous]

New Atheist poster here.

Only one thing in this life is certain and that is that we will die. All we can hope for is that it is not painful. We feel emotional about 911 and other tragedies because of the way of death - particularly brutal and sudden. We feel sad for the loved ones who will miss that person. We feel exactly like everyone else does. We feel sad that there are terrorists in the world and sad that society has created them (very often because of religious extremism). In fact ... I wish there was no organized religion because I think we would all get along better. I don't feel a strong need to 'get back' at someone for it because the perpetrator is dead already. I just hope that we can create a society that doesn't breed this sort of person ... what more can we do than that? I don't believe there is an afterlife that will sift through all those dead people and decide which ones should go to heaven and which to hell.

So, it's pretty simple really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that you are reading too much into what happened that day. I tend to beleive that ordinary people are capable of extraordinary things under the right circumstances. I bet that if you took a long hard look at the backgrounds of the those who died you will likely see that they were just as flawed as each and every one of us.

No doubt. But when presented with an option, some people chose "good" in the face of "evil." The hijackers had that option at one point, too, but they chose to go the other way.

A few issues with the argument:

1. You are ascribing your "christian" view of good and evil to 19 people who were non-christians. It is quite possible that they thought they were doing "good".

2. You are assuming that the first responders were "choosing" to do "good". It know this does not filt into the neat little 911 narrative, but could it be that they are just doing the job that they were trained to do -- that if they knew in advance that the buildings would collapse that they would still rush in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The potential to do "evil" exists in all of us. Don't kid yourselves.

Why does everyone keep putting "evil" in quotes?

Bc is somewhat subjective.