Question for atheists RE: 9/11

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, different poster than OP, but similar question to those who answered earlier. Have you lost anyone close to you? If so, do you never feel that the spirit of that person is with you? Having lost my mother, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around how one would deal with an intimate death experience with this belief structure. How would it affect the grief and recovery process? (I am specifically asking about a close death, not something like 9/11 or just the neighbor around the corner).

I have, and sure, I feel that way from time to time, and it is comforting. However, I know in my heart that that's my brain, not an actual presence.

Studies have shown that certain areas of your brain, when stimulated, can create a feeling of an otherworldly presence. I think that's what's going on -- like almost everything, our emotions are a result of brain chemistry. That doesn't make them less powerful and I don't feel my emotions are less important. They are a big part of making us who were are -- so I don't really care that they are biological in origin.

as far as grief and recovery, I suppose it's similar for all of us. You still miss the person and grieve their absence. Maybe you derive solace from memories of the person rather than thinking about them in heaven or whatever you believe, but it's still a process.

Totally agree with this post. I think that the human brain is an amazing organ and that (absent some defect) it adapts to meet our needs. If there really is an after life why is it that only the "good" people stay with us. Why aren't we haunted by that old bully from elementary school or that creepy uncle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like to get into these discussions but I do have to say that although I am an atheist, I do tend to believe in the soul and in some kind of afterlife. This changes for me. It is not a solid belief but rather, a sense of something else. I have many reasons for believing in an afterlife and that is very different from believing in gods or goddesses.

OK, thanks for answering. I was curious as there were often moments of terrible grief where I had sudden moments of inexplicable peace. For me, I truly believe it was my mom's soul reaching out to me. I would have found it harder to deal with the darkest moments of grief and its emptyness without that peace of believing in a person's soul.

And this is the main reason for me. My mom raised me to be an atheist- my belief in nothing was firm because of her. But then she died and has still been able to speak to me in very concrete ways. I have also lost two men that I loved very much and both came to me before I even knew they were dead. I can't accept the "brain stimulation" explanations because my brain was not stimulated in any way when these two men visited me to let me know they had died. In one instance I was just brushing my teeth and had no way of knowing of his death until he told me himself. I have had too much contact with the afterlife to believe it is just some weird brain chemistry thing. I am a very practical person- but I think that anyone who has seen what I have seen would at least consider the soul and an afterlife to be very strong possibilities. But I don't find myself capable of believing in deities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, different poster than OP, but similar question to those who answered earlier. Have you lost anyone close to you? If so, do you never feel that the spirit of that person is with you? Having lost my mother, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around how one would deal with an intimate death experience with this belief structure. How would it affect the grief and recovery process? (I am specifically asking about a close death, not something like 9/11 or just the neighbor around the corner).

I have, and sure, I feel that way from time to time, and it is comforting. However, I know in my heart that that's my brain, not an actual presence.

Studies have shown that certain areas of your brain, when stimulated, can create a feeling of an otherworldly presence. I think that's what's going on -- like almost everything, our emotions are a result of brain chemistry. That doesn't make them less powerful and I don't feel my emotions are less important. They are a big part of making us who were are -- so I don't really care that they are biological in origin.

as far as grief and recovery, I suppose it's similar for all of us. You still miss the person and grieve their absence. Maybe you derive solace from memories of the person rather than thinking about them in heaven or whatever you believe, but it's still a process.

Totally agree with this post. I think that the human brain is an amazing organ and that (absent some defect) it adapts to meet our needs. If there really is an after life why is it that only the "good" people stay with us. Why aren't we haunted by that old bully from elementary school or that creepy uncle.

Two answers: because the soul changes in death and sometimes we are haunted. I was one of those creepy little kids who had some ghosts in my house for a while.

[Anonymous]

There is no universal justice, no karma, no afterlife. Most people live out their lives before reaching the end. Sadly, others meet that end early. I mourn the loss of people in my life that are now gone. It's part of life.

Things like 9/11, famine that kills children and genocide are also part of this life. Seeing these things doesn't change my belief system. Does seeing these things make believers question the idea of inherent goodness of an omnipotent being that sits by and lets it all happen?

[TheManWithAUsername]

Anonymous wrote:I listened to the memorial services yesterday. I heard all the readings. I did not hear anyone say the terrorism was not evil, or that the victims just ceased to be. So I wondered, what do atheists think?

That's a very strange association. I'm agnostic, leaning atheist, and I believe that terrorism is evil.

Actually, every single terrorist I've ever heard of was a devout believer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have you lost anyone close to you? If so, do you never feel that the spirit of that person is with you?

Yes, I've lost. I retain strong memories of and feelings for that person. But I don't believe any spirit or soul remains. Not believing in some spirit world does not make his death any less tragic or painful to me, and I don't think believing in a spirit world would lessen the pain.

If you've ever lost a close pet, maybe you'll understand how I feel. You probably remember your cat with great emotion, and you mourn her death. But unless you believe in "kitty heaven" where all animals go (even the cows that we kill and eat?), then you've probably accepted that Fluffy simply died and is gone now. Of course, I'm not equating the death of a person with the death of a cat, but rather just trying to explain how it feels for me.

Do "believers" find September 11 less tragic because they believe in some spirit world? Do believers have less desire to bring terrorists to justice, simply because they can believe that the victims are in heaven? Did believers cry less than I did when my father died? I doubt it.

[Anonymous]

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, every single terrorist I've ever heard of was a devout believer.

Very important point that is often forgotten by those who question atheists. What could motivate an atheist to commit such crimes (barring sheer insanity)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, thinking that someone's existence is over when they die doesn't equate to thinking terrorism isn't evil ... not sure why you are conflating those two things.

You don't have to believe in some transcendent evil or Satan to think that the terrorists' acts were evil.

Seems to be that you are implying that if someone is an athiest, they won't condemn the terrorists?

OP here, I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that at all.

Rather, the ideas of good and evil, justice and injustice, would need to be objective to be real. Otherwise, they are just our opinions. The terrorists thought they were righteous, that they were going to heaven. We think they were evil. Both the terrorists and the victims ceased to be--they both got the same fate. Actually, the terrorists got a much better fate. They were able to prepare for their deaths, to be happy they were dying, and the families they left behind celebrated their "martyrdom." The victims were taken unexpectedly, and left behind grieving families.

If the worst thing that can happen to a person is death, then evil and good are really hollow. There is no justice.

So atheists can certainly condemn the terrorists, and I know they do. But the terrorists "got away" with it if they ceased to be alongside their victims.

I'm sorry, this is a digression from people's responses, but I just wanted to clarify that one thing.

Back to the main point, which I am sorry to have muddied:

No speaker said anything like "these people were obliterated, and we will never see them again, but at least we have their pictures/their words/their children/their works." Everyone spoke of hope, and eternity. THAT is what I wondered about, like the other PP asked. How does that finality affect the grieving process, the desire for justice for the victims?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, different poster than OP, but similar question to those who answered earlier. Have you lost anyone close to you? If so, do you never feel that the spirit of that person is with you? Having lost my mother, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around how one would deal with an intimate death experience with this belief structure. How would it affect the grief and recovery process? (I am specifically asking about a close death, not something like 9/11 or just the neighbor around the corner).

I can speak to this, a little bit, though I have to say that I don't speak for anyone other than myself. My grandmother, who I was very close to, died last fall. We are coming up on the one year anniversary of her death, and I think about it all the time. It is still really just so hard to believe that she is just gone. Never once since she died have I for a moment considered her to be "in heaven". She had cancer for 8 years. She was really sick. She was in a lot of pain. She was really tired. I believe that she is no longer sick, in pain, or tired. As for the idea of her soul going somewhere, I very much believe (and think that she would agree) that her soul lives on in her writing and the things that she passed down to her daughter (my mom), my siblings and me. We also set up a scholarship in her name at her alma mater, so her legacy of woman academic lives on in that way as well.

I guess I don't really understand how my grieving process would be different if I believed that my grandmother's soul was in heaven right now. She still wouldn't be HERE. I would still miss her every day.

Yes, but you would have hope that you would see her again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Those victims who screamed "Oh God" as they died...did they just cease to exist?

Atheist here. The answer to your question for me is "yes." You cease to exist when you die.

You can scream anything you want and it doesn't change the outcome, in my belief paradigm.

Feel free to bait me with any further questions. I'll be similarly succinct.

So when you have a mind blowing orgasm you never say oh my god?

You are missing out...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, every single terrorist I've ever heard of was a devout believer.

Very important point that is often forgotten by those who question atheists. What could motivate an atheist to commit such crimes (barring sheer insanity)?

Power. Arrogance. Feeling like they can get away with it, because there is no afterlife where justice will be done. Stalin, Mao. Nietzsche explained it.

[Anonymous]

OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Back to the main point, which I am sorry to have muddied:

No speaker said anything like "these people were obliterated, and we will never see them again, but at least we have their pictures/their words/their children/their works." Everyone spoke of hope, and eternity. THAT is what I wondered about, like the other PP asked. How does that finality affect the grieving process, the desire for justice for the victims?

OP, in my opinion, this need for hope and longing to see those who have died is what has led humanity to invent religion, and a belief in God and some kind of afterlife.

If we aren't taught these things as a part of growing up, we often invent them anew for ourselves.

I'm an atheist, but was raised Catholic, and in moments of great stress or grief, I do revert to my upbringing, including having a belief in the afterlife. I know I don't really believe it anymore of course, but there is something so incredibly comforting about pretending.

Re: justice for the victims -- I guess you are asking how can it be "ok" with atheists that the good don't go to heaven and the bad don't go to hell? I don't believe there is a heaven or hell. When you die you just die.

So no, it's not fair at all that the terrorists took out their victims. I believe all we can do is work as hard as we can to make sure people get to live a nice life for whatever time they have, on earth.

[Anonymous]

"but come on... really?"

This is basically my reaction to most religions. They all have a logical flaw in that they were all started by some prophet who supposedly had a real interaction with (or in some cases was) God himself. The prophet then goes on to prove that really is or is in contact with God -- walking on water, parting seas, etc. But then after that God shuts the heck up and the rest of us are supposed to just believe these stories. If David Koresh parted the Gulf of Mexico and I was there, I'd be a Branch Davidian. Short of that, I have no better basis to believe he was Christ reincarnated than I do to believe that Christ did what's in the stories about him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would describe myself as a "wavering" Christian. I was brought up to believe, and sometimes still want to believe... but come on... really? Most of the time I just don't think about it.

But in the last few days in reliving 9/11, I have had a bit of clarity on the subject. Here is how I reason it: There is no question in my mind that those 19 hijackers were living, breathing, human evil. Call it what you will -- Satananic, demonic, insane -- but they were taken over by a power greater than themselves that was a force of Not Good.

And if I can accept and believe that, then I have to accept the converse.... that there is also a force for Good that is alive in humanity, on the face of the earth. Even the laws of nature state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Good, I reason, is God. And I believe that we saw that on 9/11, too, in the faces and actions of the firefighters, the people on flight 93, and the countless others who put themselves in harms way to aid others.

I just don't see this. In a way, it takes the responsibility AWAY from the terrorists.

These were bad guys, agreed. I think there are reasons that people do terrible things -- sometimes it's mental illness, abuse, living in a pathological society, "brainwashing" by twisted views of religion or nationality, human weakness, selfishness ... and usually a combination of many of these things. But do I think the hijackers were taken over by some evil power other than themselves? No.