How is pre-med going for your DC at a selective college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Based on my own going through it at an Ivy and their peer group it isn’t from connections. They all skipped intro bio/chem and so are taking high level courses early on. All are doing many, many clinical and research hours during the school year on top of holding leadership positions and volunteering. There is great opportunity for all of that so don’t know how that compares. Summers are spent adding to already big number of hours. My guess is it’s a proven track record of doing it all at once versus the ones that focus on classes and then use summers to get hours.

Weird.

Stacey, premed is not high school anymore.

DP but what do you mean? The PP said "(their premed and peers) all skipped intro bio/chem and so are taking high level courses early on. All are doing many, many clinical and research hours during the school year on top of holding leadership positions and volunteering. There is great opportunity for all of that so don’t know how that compares. Summers are spent adding to already big number of hours"

What about this is weird?
Mine is premed at a T10/ivy and I am also a physician. This is just what premeds do, with variation here and there. Plenty at non-ivies skip the intro classes, and at least half the ivies do not let the students skip gen chem or others.
The basic schedule is
Freshman: CalcAB or BC/Stats (or MVC/stats if placed out of calc, but two math semesters); Gen chem 1&2; gen psychology maybe; rest humantiies/genEd course.
Soph: Gen Bio/Cell Bio; Orgo1/Orgo2; classes for your major or distribution/genEd reqs
Junior: Phys1/Phys2; Biochem/ another upper level bio;
Take MCAT after junior year.

You do not have to be at an elite/ivy to do the basic premed plan. STEM majors will have more than 2 stem courses per semester but nonsttem do not need to and they can still get the reqs done as above. Mine is an engineer premed so there are 5 courses a semester and 3-4 are stem.It is a harder path but many do it well and finish premed courses. Mine does not know a single person who has dropped premed.
Even with all that it is "normal" at their school to do all the things: research in a lab, volunteering/clinical hours, club with leadership by junior year.
That is the normal grind for non-premeds too! Lots of phd-aiming peers and they do the same but more research or TAing instead of clinical hours. I doubt it is much different at other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to Alabama for free.

Not a smart move if medical school is the goal (or a great education, for that matter): https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school

The majority of Alabama students aren't great, which is what props up the curve for the top students. This makes getting a very high GPA easier than at a school where you're the average. And research is very easy to get for a T20 caliber student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to Alabama for free.

Not a smart move if medical school is the goal (or a great education, for that matter): https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school

Meh, I don’t think this is across-the-board true. If you had the stats to get a free ride to Bama, then you had a good SAT/ACT score and should be able to do well enough in the pre-med classes. GPA and MCAT score are the primary factors to getting into a MD program. You can make it known on the app that you got a free ride to Bama.

Here is the problem, not specifically directed at Bama. Recently as part of med school consulting we had a client with very poor MCAT scores after months of study and a review course, with subscores in the chem and biochem areas significantly lower than the other two. The student went to a non-flagship public ranked in Top75 that is very popular for DMV to attend out of state. They had received a B in organic chem and a A- in biochem, B in physics. never got a C. They did not recall covering half of the topics in the Kaplan review section for Ochem and biochem. They knew some basics but could not apply the knowledge to the questions. Their tests were mostly reaction recall, not application problems. We ask SAT scores; they were approaching the 75th%ile for this college. The student had the background to be capable but did not have a rigorous college coursework despite the great gpa.
Our group of docs have experience on admissions of med schools, average to top ones. premed courses are not the same everywhere. MCAT prep takes a lot longer and can go very wrong when you do not have a solid understanding of the basics.

Any on the ball student should be unsuspending their MCAT Anki cards as they complete the course to maintain retention and also practicing during classes to understand the material in an MCAT context.

Also, selection bias. The many other from that school who smashed the MCAT probably aren't coming to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to Alabama for free.

Not a smart move if medical school is the goal (or a great education, for that matter): https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school

Meh, I don’t think this is across-the-board true. If you had the stats to get a free ride to Bama, then you had a good SAT/ACT score and should be able to do well enough in the pre-med classes. GPA and MCAT score are the primary factors to getting into a MD program. You can make it known on the app that you got a free ride to Bama.

Here is the problem, not specifically directed at Bama. Recently as part of med school consulting we had a client with very poor MCAT scores after months of study and a review course, with subscores in the chem and biochem areas significantly lower than the other two. The student went to a non-flagship public ranked in Top75 that is very popular for DMV to attend out of state. They had received a B in organic chem and a A- in biochem, B in physics. never got a C. They did not recall covering half of the topics in the Kaplan review section for Ochem and biochem. They knew some basics but could not apply the knowledge to the questions. Their tests were mostly reaction recall, not application problems. We ask SAT scores; they were approaching the 75th%ile for this college. The student had the background to be capable but did not have a rigorous college coursework despite the great gpa.
Our group of docs have experience on admissions of med schools, average to top ones. premed courses are not the same everywhere. MCAT prep takes a lot longer and can go very wrong when you do not have a solid understanding of the basics.

I completely believe this and also why it bothers me when people claim is orgo (for example) is same everywhere as same material. Mine is at a T10, the exams are insanely difficult, there is absolutely no way it is same level of difficulty everywhere. The exams require deep understanding and application. It’s also why it’s stated top schools with very high average MCAT’s also require a small fraction of the test prep time.

+1 agree, having seen assessments for top10 v t50

Can you share?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to Alabama for free.

Not a smart move if medical school is the goal (or a great education, for that matter): https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school

Meh, I don’t think this is across-the-board true. If you had the stats to get a free ride to Bama, then you had a good SAT/ACT score and should be able to do well enough in the pre-med classes. GPA and MCAT score are the primary factors to getting into a MD program. You can make it known on the app that you got a free ride to Bama.

GPA and MCAT scores are very important, but I wouldn't call them "primary" factors. You need to have a complete pkg - GPA, MCAT, volunteering, clinical experience, research, strong LOR...

What is your source for this? I disagree. A lot.

MCAT score is incredibly important. Your app won’t make it through to a holistic review if it’s too low. It’s a dealbreaker. Therefore saying it’s a primary factor is very true. It is waaaay more important than SAT/ACT score for undergrad.

Big disagree. A 4.0/1600/nothing else student may get rejected by top schools, but will get in somewhere decent for undergrad. Not true for a 4.0/528/nothing else premed - they will be rejected everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Find this thread pretty funny as an outsider several years outside of this process. My wife went to Mary Washington, then a "low ranked" med school (on a full ride) and ended up doing residency at Mayo and Fellowship at Hopkins.

Yes, she's incredibly smart/brilliant, but each rung on the ladder means less than the one before it. Great Dr.'s come from all kinds of undegrads/med schools. It comes down to the student and the work they're willing to put forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At any top school pre med will.be brutal.

premed is brutal everywhere. what makes you think "top schools" are unique?

It’s been covered up thread, classes are more difficult and competition is stiffer.

Statements like this drive me nuts. How do you know exactly? Have you attended all of them?

When you have experience working with multiple premeds who come from many different schools, you start to gather data on what the tests are like, what the syllabus covers, how prepared they are for the MCAT comparing similar SAT scores going into different colleges. The elites in general have much more demanding coursework including the exams(most or all of the grade at elites). The peers add a different layer: when the majority of peers are the kind who were top of the high school, have high scores, love to learn and have very high work ethic/discipline with studies it can be hard to compete against them. When the grading curves are taken into account (80% get Bs and As) it helps but it is not “easy” for most to be above average and get a 3.8+ in that setting.

Precisely which is why it is a bit of a risk choosing this path. It will pay off but it won’t be the easiest route.

Agree the student needs to understand the undergrad options, investigate each as much as possible and accurately assess where they are likely to stack up once there.
Two real examples:
3.85 GPA school ranked around 70, flagship in the deep south, science major. Did not get in to UVA in state but did get into VT just did not choose it. With a 3.9 and department honors this student thought med school was in range until started prepping for mcat(premed advising recommends a year off to study!) cannot get above 492, does not fully grasp a lot of the material. One year post graduation and is just starting to realize they are not cut out for it. Would they have been better off being weeded out at a harder school probably. They could have studied something that suits them better.

3.7, but upward trend (3.3 one semester early on), elite, told as a soph to spread out the sciences to help the GPA, knew would have a gap year to take the MCAT after biochem as a senior, did the standard 6weeks prep summer after senior, got 517 first try. Thought it was easy. That score is around the undergrad school average. With the knowledge a gap would be needed they planned and secured NIH year of paid research after undergrad. They already had lots of research at the school. They got into multiple med schools on the list of best-100 hospitals and picked a research med, instate and cheaper for them. Sure they had to give up on chasing the top10 like their 3.9 elite peers did but they realized the instate one they got was probably the one they would have picked anyway because it saves them tons.
TLDR pick premed undergrad according to the student need

Clearly this is due to the inherent difference between the two individuals, not due to the premed undergrad.
The first one has a much lower IQ, the second one has a high IQ. That's all that is. It has nothing to do with the undergrad.
MCAT is not a difficult test.

If the high IQ’s are challenged to do well in classes, how would the lower IQ fare in same class with same exams?

The high IQ can go to a T5000, still succeed as a medical doctor. The lower IQ one can go to T5 and still may fail. It’s all in the kid, not the school.

No low IQ is getting into a T5, they are hoping for any US med school, likely DO.

PP was talking a out undergrad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Find this thread pretty funny as an outsider several years outside of this process. My wife went to Mary Washington, then a "low ranked" med school (on a full ride) and ended up doing residency at Mayo and Fellowship at Hopkins.

Yes, she's incredibly smart/brilliant, but each rung on the ladder means less than the one before it. Great Dr.'s come from all kinds of undegrads/med schools. It comes down to the student and the work they're willing to put forward.

*in a competitive surgical specialty since I'm sure the vultures will be out saying it was for the easiest path

[Anonymous]

Curious how people think someone on the college sports team factors into this. As far as the EC stuff outside grades/mcat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Find this thread pretty funny as an outsider several years outside of this process. My wife went to Mary Washington, then a "low ranked" med school (on a full ride) and ended up doing residency at Mayo and Fellowship at Hopkins.

Yes, she's incredibly smart/brilliant, but each rung on the ladder means less than the one before it. Great Dr.'s come from all kinds of undegrads/med schools. It comes down to the student and the work they're willing to put forward.

How do people get "full rides" to medical school? I didn't think that was a possibility. I thought sticker price is actual price, there are no scholarships or grants, and this is why medical students have so much debt?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Curious how people think someone on the college sports team factors into this. As far as the EC stuff outside grades/mcat.

I guess they do it in a gap year if they don't have time for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Find this thread pretty funny as an outsider several years outside of this process. My wife went to Mary Washington, then a "low ranked" med school (on a full ride) and ended up doing residency at Mayo and Fellowship at Hopkins.

Yes, she's incredibly smart/brilliant, but each rung on the ladder means less than the one before it. Great Dr.'s come from all kinds of undegrads/med schools. It comes down to the student and the work they're willing to put forward.

How do people get "full rides" to medical school? I didn't think that was a possibility. I thought sticker price is actual price, there are no scholarships or grants, and this is why medical students have so much debt?

It was 2006? She got a full academic scholarship, but had to pay for living expenses. She was not drowning in debt upon graduation and one of the main reasons she went to the "lower" school compared to a bigger name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to Alabama for free.

Not a smart move if medical school is the goal (or a great education, for that matter): https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school

Meh, I don’t think this is across-the-board true. If you had the stats to get a free ride to Bama, then you had a good SAT/ACT score and should be able to do well enough in the pre-med classes. GPA and MCAT score are the primary factors to getting into a MD program. You can make it known on the app that you got a free ride to Bama.

GPA and MCAT scores are very important, but I wouldn't call them "primary" factors. You need to have a complete pkg - GPA, MCAT, volunteering, clinical experience, research, strong LOR...

What is your source for this? I disagree. A lot.

MCAT score is incredibly important. Your app won’t make it through to a holistic review if it’s too low. It’s a dealbreaker. Therefore saying it’s a primary factor is very true. It is waaaay more important than SAT/ACT score for undergrad.

Big disagree. A 4.0/1600/nothing else student may get rejected by top schools, but will get in somewhere decent for undergrad. Not true for a 4.0/528/nothing else premed - they will be rejected everywhere.

I doubt this is true; they can get in somewhere with those astounding stats and some good essays and LOR

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Find this thread pretty funny as an outsider several years outside of this process. My wife went to Mary Washington, then a "low ranked" med school (on a full ride) and ended up doing residency at Mayo and Fellowship at Hopkins.

Yes, she's incredibly smart/brilliant, but each rung on the ladder means less than the one before it. Great Dr.'s come from all kinds of undegrads/med schools. It comes down to the student and the work they're willing to put forward.

How do people get "full rides" to medical school? I didn't think that was a possibility. I thought sticker price is actual price, there are no scholarships or grants, and this is why medical students have so much debt?

It was 2006? She got a full academic scholarship, but had to pay for living expenses. She was not drowning in debt upon graduation and one of the main reasons she went to the "lower" school compared to a bigger name.

These days, even the lowest ranked med schools do not need to offer any scholarships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine is at a top school, with lots of premed and lots of grade DEflation. Keeping grades up is difficult, but the resources at the school are amazing.

Name the school, no top school has DE flation. I work in med school consulting and know the typical GPAs from all top schools. The medians are all between 3.65 and 3.9 Harvard/Brown being at the top and Princeton/Penn being lower. MIT has a 5 point system and is in its own group. It is a very small percentage of the graduates across all areas that have less than a B+ average/3.3 the past few years. Sure it is hard work to get above the average but there is no deflation

what group is MIT in? Why isn't it with the Ivies?