DOJ civil rights probe into TJ admissions policies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

White enrollment increased more than you think, since most Hispanics are white. I have no idea why non-disadvantaged middle and upper middle class white Hispanics are considered URMs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

White enrollment increased more than you think, since most Hispanics are white. I have no idea why non-disadvantaged middle and upper middle class white Hispanics are considered URMs.

I have personally known quite a few white parents with one or two grandparent originally from a Spanish speaking country put down “Hispanic” for their children’s ethnicity on school paperwork even though their kids are upper middle class white and don’t self identify as Hispanic at all. They know this will help their kids get into any selective program.

[Anonymous]

Can we all self-identified as African? After all, modern humans originated from Africa. This way can easily resolve the "URM" issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

People who want to consider themselves white adjacent won’t go after white students. People of color are soft targets and they are hoping to get support from the white population while going after the people of color.

[Anonymous]

Is there any evidence that TJ graduates are genuinely pushing science innovation in the US? Are TJ grads producing patents or winning research grants at higher rates than the rest of the population? Are they creating the medical innovations extending our lives or the engineering innovations reducing greenhouse gas emissions? (I'm not sure working for Facebook counts as innovation.)

Do we really know that hothousing kids creates the innovation we are seeking? I went to an Ivy. My college classmates who came from magnet high schools have pretty much the same level of success as everyone else.

[Anonymous]

This won't work. If they contend the 10 percent policy isn't lawful, say goodbye to UVA for the rest of the state. They get massive boosts compared to NOVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there any evidence that TJ graduates are genuinely pushing science innovation in the US? Are TJ grads producing patents or winning research grants at higher rates than the rest of the population? Are they creating the medical innovations extending our lives or the engineering innovations reducing greenhouse gas emissions? (I'm not sure working for Facebook counts as innovation.)

Do we really know that hothousing kids creates the innovation we are seeking? I went to an Ivy. My college classmates who came from magnet high schools have pretty much the same level of success as everyone else.

Based on your reasoning, would you have preferred attending a community college over an ivy school? would you be sending your kid to cc?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/21/politics/doj-thomas-jefferson-high-school-fairfax

How does this impact next year's admissions process? Should students prepare for just the essay or will they be tested in middle school math, science and English?

Maybe they could get rid of experience factors and go back to an objective test. Keeping the 1.5% seat allocation will ensure that every middle school has representation at the school every jurisdiction funds with taxes.

But bottom half of fcps schools dont have enough applicants to fill even the 1.5% seat allocation, making it difficult to get to the desired diversity chart. Experience factors and non-academic criteria like essays help get to the predetermined ethnicity mix, whether it is stem qualified or not.

True.

Experience factors =

1) Economic Disadvantage: free or reduced-price lunch (FARMs)

2) English as a Second Language (ESL): enrolled in school programs designed for non-native English speakers, and

3) Special Education Needs: Students with Individualized Education Plans (IEPs) or Section 504 plans.

Experience factors account for 40% of the TJ admission standard total.

But they are all struggling at TJ with Cs & Ds, when they could thrive at their base school with As and Bs. Why are they being used as political props to satisfy a mere diversity chart?

Ugh, none of those factors, 1,2, or 3 qualifies a student for TJ, but what proof is there that they are struggling with C's & D's? And can NAACP really get traction if kids who aren't admitted have lesser scores on objective testing, even if it appears to be disparate impact if you only take race into account?

We don't know their grades other than anecdotally. But anecdotally, kids from some schools struggle more than others, especially in math.
We also know that the kids going back to their base school tend to be more prevalent at less academically rigorous schools

FCPS has basically given up on actually helping these kids teach their potential but also don't want to feel bad about having given up on these kids. So they try to get them into TJ where they will frequently fail and call it a day.

NAACP can't actually win a lawsuit but they can make woke white people feel bad.

I see that back in the 2016-17 school year, well before the admissions changes, 25 TJ kids had left over the course of the school year through April. This year the number is 13.

It doesn't seem kids are bailing on TJ more than in the past. Maybe the curriculum has adjusted to accommodate less advanced students, but that's a different question.

Wasn’t last year 50 kids left from freshman class?

significantly higher than that. In a scramble to backfill those vacancies, there’s aggressive outreach to top feeder base schools, urging students to apply as froshmores in 10th grade. Leaving those seats unfilled would draw criticism of the non-merit essay admission process. But entering TJ in 10th is a nightmare, without having the advantage of getting acclimated as freshman.

Proof?

Aren't you the one flooding this forum pleading top feeders to apply as froshmores?

DP. I am one of the posters encouraging people to apply as froshmores. I don't care if it's they're coming from Carson or Twain, just need to backfill the classes. Funding is based on headcount and they are going to fill those spots, it would be nice if the froshmores were smart

Bigger question is why are unqualified being made freshman offers knowing well many of them quit in freshmen, and then backfill the vacancies later by soliciting qualified students to apply as froshmores in 10th while depriving them of freshman experience? Why these manipulative race based admissions games with students academics?

+1 It's okay for a competitive admissions based school to choose the best and the brightest. Of course, this presumes no "cheating" by which I define seeing the test/answers in advance or getting someone else to take the test (or write the essay) for you (a la the college admissions scandal). Studying/prepping is okay. But admission should not be based on quotas (whether geographic, racial, religious, etc) nor experience factors. It's not just about being fair to the kids who lose out to poorer students; it's also about the best use of taxpayer resources and the common good. We need to produce the best mathematicians, engineers, and scientists possible and that means vetting all the kids the same way. Otherwise, given the demographics, the US will not have the human capital it needs to compete with other countries. Then we all lose.

That depends on whether you view acceptance to TJ as an end result or a beginning. If you see it as an end result, i.e., the best and the brightest should receive acceptance solely on their current merit as assessed by a test and that is the end of the issue, than the issue seems pretty black and white. The goal is completing an admissions cohort to TJ that, in a snapshot in time of 14 year olds, proves the highest level of achievement and knowledge assessment and that is the clearest and most efficient way to achieve that goal.

However, if you view acceptance to TJ as a beginning, where students have access to an amazing public resource where those with incredible academic potential are challenged and provided with the highest level of academic resources available to them in the FCPS school system, then we need to do all we can to better identify those students who may possess this potential including identifying barriers that some students with that potential may face. And that is not always recognized by a snapshot in time where a student can score the highest on a test, when we all know that some students in this county have access to better resources to prepare them for that one snapshot in time than others. But that doesn't mean that other students would not achieve success at TJ if provided with those resources and rise to meet the challenges of its curriculum.

I'm all for taking into account multiple standardized tests/dates to alleviate the "snapshot" issue and to address a kid having a bad testing day. But there is no way that we can pretend that the lower scoring kids will have an equal chance at success at TJ. It's kind of like a PP said, the best shot that URM have may be is to have had different parents. Like being adopted by Asian parents.

Come on, the modern science is mainly developed by white scientists.
But, yes, ancient Indians created Arabic numerals. Maybe some ethical groups do have some genic advantages ? To balance this, maybe FCPS should add sports, especially basketball and football, into the admission cohort evaluation.

American Indians are helping run Microsoft, Google, IBM, Adobe, etc. What does that have to do with FCPS and TJ?

Usually American Indians means something different than Indian Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/21/politics/doj-thomas-jefferson-high-school-fairfax

How does this impact next year's admissions process? Should students prepare for just the essay or will they be tested in middle school math, science and English?

Maybe they could get rid of experience factors and go back to an objective test. Keeping the 1.5% seat allocation will ensure that every middle school has representation at the school every jurisdiction funds with taxes.

But bottom half of fcps schools dont have enough applicants to fill even the 1.5% seat allocation, making it difficult to get to the desired diversity chart. Experience factors and non-academic criteria like essays help get to the predetermined ethnicity mix, whether it is stem qualified or not.

True.

Experience factors =

1) Economic Disadvantage: free or reduced-price lunch (FARMs)

2) English as a Second Language (ESL): enrolled in school programs designed for non-native English speakers, and

3) Special Education Needs: Students with Individualized Education Plans (IEPs) or Section 504 plans.

Experience factors account for 40% of the TJ admission standard total.

But they are all struggling at TJ with Cs & Ds, when they could thrive at their base school with As and Bs. Why are they being used as political props to satisfy a mere diversity chart?

Ugh, none of those factors, 1,2, or 3 qualifies a student for TJ, but what proof is there that they are struggling with C's & D's? And can NAACP really get traction if kids who aren't admitted have lesser scores on objective testing, even if it appears to be disparate impact if you only take race into account?

We don't know their grades other than anecdotally. But anecdotally, kids from some schools struggle more than others, especially in math.
We also know that the kids going back to their base school tend to be more prevalent at less academically rigorous schools

FCPS has basically given up on actually helping these kids teach their potential but also don't want to feel bad about having given up on these kids. So they try to get them into TJ where they will frequently fail and call it a day.

NAACP can't actually win a lawsuit but they can make woke white people feel bad.

I see that back in the 2016-17 school year, well before the admissions changes, 25 TJ kids had left over the course of the school year through April. This year the number is 13.

It doesn't seem kids are bailing on TJ more than in the past. Maybe the curriculum has adjusted to accommodate less advanced students, but that's a different question.

Wasn’t last year 50 kids left from freshman class?

significantly higher than that. In a scramble to backfill those vacancies, there’s aggressive outreach to top feeder base schools, urging students to apply as froshmores in 10th grade. Leaving those seats unfilled would draw criticism of the non-merit essay admission process. But entering TJ in 10th is a nightmare, without having the advantage of getting acclimated as freshman.

Proof?

Aren't you the one flooding this forum pleading top feeders to apply as froshmores?

DP. I am one of the posters encouraging people to apply as froshmores. I don't care if it's they're coming from Carson or Twain, just need to backfill the classes. Funding is based on headcount and they are going to fill those spots, it would be nice if the froshmores were smart

Bigger question is why are unqualified being made freshman offers knowing well many of them quit in freshmen, and then backfill the vacancies later by soliciting qualified students to apply as froshmores in 10th while depriving them of freshman experience? Why these manipulative race based admissions games with students academics?

+1 It's okay for a competitive admissions based school to choose the best and the brightest. Of course, this presumes no "cheating" by which I define seeing the test/answers in advance or getting someone else to take the test (or write the essay) for you (a la the college admissions scandal). Studying/prepping is okay. But admission should not be based on quotas (whether geographic, racial, religious, etc) nor experience factors. It's not just about being fair to the kids who lose out to poorer students; it's also about the best use of taxpayer resources and the common good. We need to produce the best mathematicians, engineers, and scientists possible and that means vetting all the kids the same way. Otherwise, given the demographics, the US will not have the human capital it needs to compete with other countries. Then we all lose.

That depends on whether you view acceptance to TJ as an end result or a beginning. If you see it as an end result, i.e., the best and the brightest should receive acceptance solely on their current merit as assessed by a test and that is the end of the issue, than the issue seems pretty black and white. The goal is completing an admissions cohort to TJ that, in a snapshot in time of 14 year olds, proves the highest level of achievement and knowledge assessment and that is the clearest and most efficient way to achieve that goal.

However, if you view acceptance to TJ as a beginning, where students have access to an amazing public resource where those with incredible academic potential are challenged and provided with the highest level of academic resources available to them in the FCPS school system, then we need to do all we can to better identify those students who may possess this potential including identifying barriers that some students with that potential may face. And that is not always recognized by a snapshot in time where a student can score the highest on a test, when we all know that some students in this county have access to better resources to prepare them for that one snapshot in time than others. But that doesn't mean that other students would not achieve success at TJ if provided with those resources and rise to meet the challenges of its curriculum.

I'm all for taking into account multiple standardized tests/dates to alleviate the "snapshot" issue and to address a kid having a bad testing day. But there is no way that we can pretend that the lower scoring kids will have an equal chance at success at TJ. It's kind of like a PP said, the best shot that URM have may be is to have had different parents. Like being adopted by Asian parents.

Come on, the modern science is mainly developed by white scientists.
But, yes, ancient Indians created Arabic numerals. Maybe some ethical groups do have some genic advantages ? To balance this, maybe FCPS should add sports, especially basketball and football, into the admission cohort evaluation.

At present, TJ is 81% minority; 19% whites.

Whits lost interest in STEM?

“Whits” ?? Perhaps you meant half-whits ?

White interest in science is not lost. Just look at Europe.

However, America appears to have abandoned the pursuit of excellence, while many parents who emigrate from Asia instill in their children an interest in academics above all.

White parents are just trying to move the goal posts so their kids end up between the uprights.
Many of them see their kids falling behind academically compared to the world where it was mostly whites and blacks and they suddenly develop a deep appreciation for holistic admissions and lose confidence in standardized tests.

Sure 20% of whites are just as competitive as they always were but when we talk about children living below the standard of living of their parents, we are talking mostly about white people. It's a big problem. It's causing a maga revolution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

It was to make the school look more like the county. The county is mostly white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

People who want to consider themselves white adjacent won’t go after white students. People of color are soft targets and they are hoping to get support from the white population while going after the people of color.

WTF is white adjacent? And why do they go after asians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there any evidence that TJ graduates are genuinely pushing science innovation in the US? Are TJ grads producing patents or winning research grants at higher rates than the rest of the population? Are they creating the medical innovations extending our lives or the engineering innovations reducing greenhouse gas emissions? (I'm not sure working for Facebook counts as innovation.)

Do we really know that hothousing kids creates the innovation we are seeking? I went to an Ivy. My college classmates who came from magnet high schools have pretty much the same level of success as everyone else.

It's hard to tell how much innovation would have been produced without places like TJ and Stuyvesant but the graduates from these schools almost certainly have more patents than the general population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This won't work. If they contend the 10 percent policy isn't lawful, say goodbye to UVA for the rest of the state. They get massive boosts compared to NOVA.

Just about every college values geographic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

People who want to consider themselves white adjacent won’t go after white students. People of color are soft targets and they are hoping to get support from the white population while going after the people of color.

WTF is white adjacent? And why do they go after asians?

They didn’t “go after” Asian students.

They added seats to increase representation across the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If equity for POC was the goal, then why did white enrollment increase? it's so obvious what is going on.

White enrollment increased more than you think, since most Hispanics are white. I have no idea why non-disadvantaged middle and upper middle class white Hispanics are considered URMs.

Because the whole point of identity politics is to avoid judging people based on their individual circumstances or merit and to judge them instead as a member of an identity group.

If you are black or Hispanic you are considered disadvantaged even if your parents/family are wealthy and educated.

Meanwhile if you are white (or Asian) you are presumed to be advantaged even if your family was dirt poor and uneducated.