Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitism?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice.

Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position.

What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then?

As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both.

What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered.

I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution.

It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity.

Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River.

Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians.

Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control.

If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to.

Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice.

Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position.

What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then?

As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both.

What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered.

I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution.

It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity.

Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River.

Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians.

Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control.

If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to.

Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations.

We are in agreement that Netanyahu - and right wing extremism - is ultimately bad for Israel.

However I wouldn’t entirely blame Israel for secular institutions like Fatah failing in Palestinian territories. It’s been 75 years of turmoil and resistance against progress like a two state solution. There just doesn’t appear to be a sizable moderate/secular coalition amongst Palestinians.

With regards to your point about Hamas gaining popularity due to its services offered to the people and a vision for resistance… you know who else had a similar platform? The Nazi party.

I’m not “obsessed” with Hamas, but if you want to consider Gaza one twenty year case study in Palestinian history, the story for self governance isn’t a good one. Hamas is corrupt and terrorizes israel. Israel should not have to live with Hamas next door, nor should Palestinians in the West Bank have to live with violent and extremist settler violence. I don’t consider Israel’s mission in Gaza to be ethnic cleansing. There are indeed two sides to this story, and the fact of the matter is that Hamas has built a network of tunnels into Egypt throughout Gaza, provoked an attack murdering 1,000+ Israelis (targeting civilian kibbutzes and a pedestrian music festival),kidnapped several hundred more Israelis, and have stored artillery in civilian locations and put Palestinians in harms way in order to make them martyrs. It doesn’t minimize the unbearable toll on civilian life this war has caused, but it’s also not legitimate resistance: it’s terrorism and I’m not sure why Israel should have to live with Hamas just because they resort to putting innocent people in harms way. Would any other army be held to that standard? I don’t know. But Hamas in Gaza has jeopardized a two state solution as much as right wing Israelis.

My idea of a ceasefire/next step would be releasing the remaining hostages, Hamas surrendering and Netanyahu resigning.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice.

Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position.

What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then?

As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both.

What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered.

I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution.

It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity.

Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River.

Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians.

Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control.

If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to.

Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations.

We are in agreement that Netanyahu - and right wing extremism - is ultimately bad for Israel.

However I wouldn’t entirely blame Israel for secular institutions like Fatah failing in Palestinian territories. It’s been 75 years of turmoil and resistance against progress like a two state solution. There just doesn’t appear to be a sizable moderate/secular coalition amongst Palestinians.

With regards to your point about Hamas gaining popularity due to its services offered to the people and a vision for resistance… you know who else had a similar platform? The Nazi party.

I’m not “obsessed” with Hamas, but if you want to consider Gaza one twenty year case study in Palestinian history, the story for self governance isn’t a good one. Hamas is corrupt and terrorizes israel. Israel should not have to live with Hamas next door, nor should Palestinians in the West Bank have to live with violent and extremist settler violence. I don’t consider Israel’s mission in Gaza to be ethnic cleansing. There are indeed two sides to this story, and the fact of the matter is that Hamas has built a network of tunnels into Egypt throughout Gaza, provoked an attack murdering 1,000+ Israelis (targeting civilian kibbutzes and a pedestrian music festival),kidnapped several hundred more Israelis, and have stored artillery in civilian locations and put Palestinians in harms way in order to make them martyrs. It doesn’t minimize the unbearable toll on civilian life this war has caused, but it’s also not legitimate resistance: it’s terrorism and I’m not sure why Israel should have to live with Hamas just because they resort to putting innocent people in harms way. Would any other army be held to that standard? I don’t know. But Hamas in Gaza has jeopardized a two state solution as much as right wing Israelis.

My idea of a ceasefire/next step would be releasing the remaining hostages, Hamas surrendering and Netanyahu resigning.

Again, complete obsession with Hamas. I assure you that there are other Palestinian organizations. I spent several paragraphs explaining the need to allow development of authentic Palestinian organizations that would complete with Hamas and you act like I proclaimed Hamas to be the savior of Palestine. At some point you may want to ask yourself what repercussions Netanyahu should suffer for supporting the organization.

It is important to deal with reality. Realistically, Israel can't get rid of Hamas short of complete genocide. Every mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, or pet dog the Israelis kill creates more Hamas members. Expecting Hamas to surrender is not being serious. Similarly, it is extremely unlikely that Hamas will free all the hostages until they are convinced it will lead to the end of the war. Why return hostages just to allow Netanyahu to have open season?

If Netanyahu loses power, he will go to jail. It has been true since even before October 7 that Netanyahu is will to sacrifice both Israelis and Palestinians to keep himself out of jail. There is no way he will resign. He could be forced from power and I have no idea why Biden has not forced a rift to cause the Israeli government to collapse. Given all the resources at Biden's disposal, it shouldn't be that hard. Collapse the government and let Israelis elect a successor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My argument with modern Zionism i that it seeks to establish an *exclusively* Jewish state at the expense of all others.

Do you have a problem with all the Muslim countries that have exclusively Muslim countries at the expense of all others, exepcially Jews? How about the Palestinians who murder their own for selling land to Jews or wanting peace with Israelis? Herein lies a double standard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument with modern Zionism i that it seeks to establish an *exclusively* Jewish state at the expense of all others.

Do you have a problem with all the Muslim countries that have exclusively Muslim countries at the expense of all others, exepcially Jews? How about the Palestinians who murder their own for selling land to Jews or wanting peace with Israelis? Herein lies a double standard.

No the double standard is with Israel. America doesn't give those countries billions to help them "maintain an islamic state" and people would be outraged if they did (but replace islamic with jewish and its fine). People are allowed to be critical of Muslims countries all the time. If I was on a college campus protesting Saudi Arabias policies no one would bat an eye. But because its a Jewish state there would be wall to wall media coverage about antisemitism and congressional hearings the next week. Its a complete double standard where Israel is allowed to do what they want and act a certain way without room for argument. In general I think the American public is for religious freedom, not for countries where one religion is favored over others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument with modern Zionism i that it seeks to establish an *exclusively* Jewish state at the expense of all others.

Do you have a problem with all the Muslim countries that have exclusively Muslim countries at the expense of all others, exepcially Jews? How about the Palestinians who murder their own for selling land to Jews or wanting peace with Israelis? Herein lies a double standard.

No the double standard is with Israel. America doesn't give those countries billions to help them "maintain an islamic state" and people would be outraged if they did (but replace islamic with jewish and its fine). People are allowed to be critical of Muslims countries all the time. If I was on a college campus protesting Saudi Arabias policies no one would bat an eye. But because its a Jewish state there would be wall to wall media coverage about antisemitism and congressional hearings the next week. Its a complete double standard where Israel is allowed to do what they want and act a certain way without room for argument. In general I think the American public is for religious freedom, not for countries where one religion is favored over others.

There really would not be if the protests were about what you describe. Most Jews are very critical of Israel. We also know antisemitism when we see it.

[Anonymous]

The reason Americans are sensitive to antisemitism is because America, and the West in general, has a long history of antisemitism.

We saw what happened in the Holocaust and said never again. Yet antisemitism still rears its head. Jews are the most frequent target of religiously motivated hate crimes in the US, and we still have people who deny the Holocaust.

But it’s easy to miss it if you don’t really care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I believe it is. All Zionism says is Jews have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. It's a central tenet of Judaism.

Anti-Zionism says they have no right to self-defense and denies the historical connection to Israel.

So when people say I'm not against Judaism, just Zionism...they make no sense. Zionism and Judaism are inseparable.

Agree and well-said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason Americans are sensitive to antisemitism is because America, and the West in general, has a long history of antisemitism.

We saw what happened in the Holocaust and said never again. Yet antisemitism still rears its head. Jews are the most frequent target of religiously motivated hate crimes in the US, and we still have people who deny the Holocaust.

But it’s easy to miss it if you don’t really care.

The west? “The west alone is antiSemitic.” That is your premise??

Hmm - as opposed to “the east?” As in China, Japan, Korea, etc??

Did it ever occur to you: few to no Jewish people live in Asia / the East?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe it is. All Zionism says is Jews have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. It's a central tenet of Judaism.

Anti-Zionism says they have no right to self-defense and denies the historical connection to Israel.

So when people say I'm not against Judaism, just Zionism...they make no sense. Zionism and Judaism are inseparable.

Agree and well-said.

the ancestral homeland thing is so dumb and matters to no one but jews. how come other ethnic groups aren’t allowed to push other people out to reinstate their “ancestral homeland”. should christians have a right to reinstate the holy roman empire? there have been dozens of ethnic groups living in the land of israel/palestine since the kingdom of judea - how come your time point is the one we have to all go back to and support?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument with modern Zionism i that it seeks to establish an *exclusively* Jewish state at the expense of all others.

Do you have a problem with all the Muslim countries that have exclusively Muslim countries at the expense of all others, exepcially Jews? How about the Palestinians who murder their own for selling land to Jews or wanting peace with Israelis? Herein lies a double standard.

yes! however if you look at historical patterns you find that this is a western backed pattern- there were no Muslim first countries in the world before, and nor are their any Muslim first countries comparable to Israel's Jewish first legal system. they were always heterogeneous and no modern muslim state has the medieval systems of diimmi or whatever. the United States has backed religious muslim fanatics and also pursued friendship with Saudi Arabia which is a state that erodes Muslim liberalism from the Caucasus to Malaysia. Many muslims are incredibly upset at the US money and US arms that have been propping religious extremism- Ive already described this in the screed like comment I posted previously. You also have to keep in mind that Israel worked very hard to make the jewish minorities feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in their erstwhile homes- the historical record shows that Israeli officials went so far as to bomb movie theaters in Iraq and blame the Iraqi jews in order to inflame anti Jewish sentiment.

Historically Muslims have not suffered from ethnic obsessive hatred of their jewish peers, It was the Balfour declaration that started anti-jewish violence and it was not directed against Arab- jews, it was anti european jews and honestly where were european people living in the world that they werent hated and despised in the early 20th century? Noone wanted white people- the Indians wanted them gone, mexicans, South America, Kenya, , Ghana, Nigeria, Burma, China never wanted them in the first place, why should Arabs have been any different just b/c these particular europeans were jews instead of christians- they still spoke German, French, polish and German -hebrew hybrid (Yiddish) as their native languages and ate weird russian/germanic foods and wore weird clothes. The Arab jews spoke arabic or Ladino, ate the same foods, wore the same clothing, conformed to similar social mores and norms, I'd like to point out that this was bad tine for a set of european emigres to move towards any non-settler colonial state b/c the colonized world was in its death throes.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice.

Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position.

What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then?

As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both.

What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered.

I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution.

It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity.

Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River.

Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians.

Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control.

If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to.

Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations.

We are in agreement that Netanyahu - and right wing extremism - is ultimately bad for Israel.

However I wouldn’t entirely blame Israel for secular institutions like Fatah failing in Palestinian territories. It’s been 75 years of turmoil and resistance against progress like a two state solution. There just doesn’t appear to be a sizable moderate/secular coalition amongst Palestinians.

With regards to your point about Hamas gaining popularity due to its services offered to the people and a vision for resistance… you know who else had a similar platform? The Nazi party.

I’m not “obsessed” with Hamas, but if you want to consider Gaza one twenty year case study in Palestinian history, the story for self governance isn’t a good one. Hamas is corrupt and terrorizes israel. Israel should not have to live with Hamas next door, nor should Palestinians in the West Bank have to live with violent and extremist settler violence. I don’t consider Israel’s mission in Gaza to be ethnic cleansing. There are indeed two sides to this story, and the fact of the matter is that Hamas has built a network of tunnels into Egypt throughout Gaza, provoked an attack murdering 1,000+ Israelis (targeting civilian kibbutzes and a pedestrian music festival),kidnapped several hundred more Israelis, and have stored artillery in civilian locations and put Palestinians in harms way in order to make them martyrs. It doesn’t minimize the unbearable toll on civilian life this war has caused, but it’s also not legitimate resistance: it’s terrorism and I’m not sure why Israel should have to live with Hamas just because they resort to putting innocent people in harms way. Would any other army be held to that standard? I don’t know. But Hamas in Gaza has jeopardized a two state solution as much as right wing Israelis.

My idea of a ceasefire/next step would be releasing the remaining hostages, Hamas surrendering and Netanyahu resigning.

Again, complete obsession with Hamas. I assure you that there are other Palestinian organizations. I spent several paragraphs explaining the need to allow development of authentic Palestinian organizations that would complete with Hamas and you act like I proclaimed Hamas to be the savior of Palestine. At some point you may want to ask yourself what repercussions Netanyahu should suffer for supporting the organization.

It is important to deal with reality. Realistically, Israel can't get rid of Hamas short of complete genocide. Every mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, or pet dog the Israelis kill creates more Hamas members. Expecting Hamas to surrender is not being serious. Similarly, it is extremely unlikely that Hamas will free all the hostages until they are convinced it will lead to the end of the war. Why return hostages just to allow Netanyahu to have open season?

If Netanyahu loses power, he will go to jail. It has been true since even before October 7 that Netanyahu is will to sacrifice both Israelis and Palestinians to keep himself out of jail. There is no way he will resign. He could be forced from power and I have no idea why Biden has not forced a rift to cause the Israeli government to collapse. Given all the resources at Biden's disposal, it shouldn't be that hard. Collapse the government and let Israelis elect a successor.

It’s like saying you want to discuss 9/11; but please don’t “obsess” over the taliban or Al Quaeda. Yes, Hamas, the closest thing Palestinians have to self governance and a means to defend themselves, is relevant to the convo. You want to dismiss them from the conversation because their terrorism is not helpful to the Palestinian martyr narrative.

If expecting Hamas to surrender is not a realistic outcome, then the outlook for the war and a Palestinian state is bleak.

I have no further comments on Netanyahu beyond ideologically disagreeing with his right wing politics and generally believing that both Israel and Palestinians will need more moderate governance to move forward. But that doesn’t seem like a realistic possibility, so the status quo will continue. Grassroot activism should be not to eliminate one side or the other, but to root out extremism on both sides of the conflict to move forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument with modern Zionism i that it seeks to establish an *exclusively* Jewish state at the expense of all others.

Do you have a problem with all the Muslim countries that have exclusively Muslim countries at the expense of all others, exepcially Jews? How about the Palestinians who murder their own for selling land to Jews or wanting peace with Israelis? Herein lies a double standard.

There are no Muslim countries at the expense of all others, whatever that means. When Jews were expelled from the Middle Eastern countries, it wasn't to preserve the Muslim character of these countries.

There is that. And then there is also the fact that no Muslim country cosplays as a democracy or a light onto nations.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice.

Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position.

What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then?

As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both.

What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered.

I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution.

It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity.

Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River.

Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians.

Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control.

If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to.

Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations.

We are in agreement that Netanyahu - and right wing extremism - is ultimately bad for Israel.

However I wouldn’t entirely blame Israel for secular institutions like Fatah failing in Palestinian territories. It’s been 75 years of turmoil and resistance against progress like a two state solution. There just doesn’t appear to be a sizable moderate/secular coalition amongst Palestinians.

With regards to your point about Hamas gaining popularity due to its services offered to the people and a vision for resistance… you know who else had a similar platform? The Nazi party.

I’m not “obsessed” with Hamas, but if you want to consider Gaza one twenty year case study in Palestinian history, the story for self governance isn’t a good one. Hamas is corrupt and terrorizes israel. Israel should not have to live with Hamas next door, nor should Palestinians in the West Bank have to live with violent and extremist settler violence. I don’t consider Israel’s mission in Gaza to be ethnic cleansing. There are indeed two sides to this story, and the fact of the matter is that Hamas has built a network of tunnels into Egypt throughout Gaza, provoked an attack murdering 1,000+ Israelis (targeting civilian kibbutzes and a pedestrian music festival),kidnapped several hundred more Israelis, and have stored artillery in civilian locations and put Palestinians in harms way in order to make them martyrs. It doesn’t minimize the unbearable toll on civilian life this war has caused, but it’s also not legitimate resistance: it’s terrorism and I’m not sure why Israel should have to live with Hamas just because they resort to putting innocent people in harms way. Would any other army be held to that standard? I don’t know. But Hamas in Gaza has jeopardized a two state solution as much as right wing Israelis.

My idea of a ceasefire/next step would be releasing the remaining hostages, Hamas surrendering and Netanyahu resigning.

Again, complete obsession with Hamas. I assure you that there are other Palestinian organizations. I spent several paragraphs explaining the need to allow development of authentic Palestinian organizations that would complete with Hamas and you act like I proclaimed Hamas to be the savior of Palestine. At some point you may want to ask yourself what repercussions Netanyahu should suffer for supporting the organization.

It is important to deal with reality. Realistically, Israel can't get rid of Hamas short of complete genocide. Every mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, or pet dog the Israelis kill creates more Hamas members. Expecting Hamas to surrender is not being serious. Similarly, it is extremely unlikely that Hamas will free all the hostages until they are convinced it will lead to the end of the war. Why return hostages just to allow Netanyahu to have open season?

If Netanyahu loses power, he will go to jail. It has been true since even before October 7 that Netanyahu is will to sacrifice both Israelis and Palestinians to keep himself out of jail. There is no way he will resign. He could be forced from power and I have no idea why Biden has not forced a rift to cause the Israeli government to collapse. Given all the resources at Biden's disposal, it shouldn't be that hard. Collapse the government and let Israelis elect a successor.

It’s like saying you want to discuss 9/11; but please don’t “obsess” over the taliban or Al Quaeda. Yes, Hamas, the closest thing Palestinians have to self governance and a means to defend themselves, is relevant to the convo. You want to dismiss them from the conversation because their terrorism is not helpful to the Palestinian martyr narrative.

If expecting Hamas to surrender is not a realistic outcome, then the outlook for the war and a Palestinian state is bleak.

I have no further comments on Netanyahu beyond ideologically disagreeing with his right wing politics and generally believing that both Israel and Palestinians will need more moderate governance to move forward. But that doesn’t seem like a realistic possibility, so the status quo will continue. Grassroot activism should be not to eliminate one side or the other, but to root out extremism on both sides of the conflict to move forward.

I am now starting to understand your obsession with Hamas. You have either never learned about or forgotten about Palestinians outside Gaza. Hamas has had very little influence in the West Bank. Hamas in not even the officially-recognized governing body of Palestinians. Yes, the PA is worthless and should be ignored, but at least you should acknowledge them.

What you don't understand is for people like me and for the vast majority of protesters, Hamas is not important. We don't choose our political positions based on what Hamas says or does. If we say we oppose Israel's bombing of civilians and you say, "but Hamas...", we know it is just an attempt to deflect. If we want to talk about the future of Palestine, none of us supports Hamas having a role. You can say, "but Hamas..." all you want but, again, it is just a diversion.

So interesting that no amount of explanation can stop you from obsessing about Hamas, but we are supposed to just immediately shut up about Netanyahu because you have said that you "ideologically disagree" with him. Has one single person in this thread expressed any sort of ideological agreement with Hamas? Not to my knowledge but that hasn't stopped you from bringing the group up in every single post. If you are going to expect us to be responsible for Hamas, you had better believe that we are going to hold you responsible for Netanyahu.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice.

Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position.

What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then?

As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both.

What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered.

I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution.

It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity.

Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River.

Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians.

Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control.

If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to.

Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations.

We are in agreement that Netanyahu - and right wing extremism - is ultimately bad for Israel.

However I wouldn’t entirely blame Israel for secular institutions like Fatah failing in Palestinian territories. It’s been 75 years of turmoil and resistance against progress like a two state solution. There just doesn’t appear to be a sizable moderate/secular coalition amongst Palestinians.

With regards to your point about Hamas gaining popularity due to its services offered to the people and a vision for resistance… you know who else had a similar platform? The Nazi party.

I’m not “obsessed” with Hamas, but if you want to consider Gaza one twenty year case study in Palestinian history, the story for self governance isn’t a good one. Hamas is corrupt and terrorizes israel. Israel should not have to live with Hamas next door, nor should Palestinians in the West Bank have to live with violent and extremist settler violence. I don’t consider Israel’s mission in Gaza to be ethnic cleansing. There are indeed two sides to this story, and the fact of the matter is that Hamas has built a network of tunnels into Egypt throughout Gaza, provoked an attack murdering 1,000+ Israelis (targeting civilian kibbutzes and a pedestrian music festival),kidnapped several hundred more Israelis, and have stored artillery in civilian locations and put Palestinians in harms way in order to make them martyrs. It doesn’t minimize the unbearable toll on civilian life this war has caused, but it’s also not legitimate resistance: it’s terrorism and I’m not sure why Israel should have to live with Hamas just because they resort to putting innocent people in harms way. Would any other army be held to that standard? I don’t know. But Hamas in Gaza has jeopardized a two state solution as much as right wing Israelis.

My idea of a ceasefire/next step would be releasing the remaining hostages, Hamas surrendering and Netanyahu resigning.

Again, complete obsession with Hamas. I assure you that there are other Palestinian organizations. I spent several paragraphs explaining the need to allow development of authentic Palestinian organizations that would complete with Hamas and you act like I proclaimed Hamas to be the savior of Palestine. At some point you may want to ask yourself what repercussions Netanyahu should suffer for supporting the organization.

It is important to deal with reality. Realistically, Israel can't get rid of Hamas short of complete genocide. Every mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, or pet dog the Israelis kill creates more Hamas members. Expecting Hamas to surrender is not being serious. Similarly, it is extremely unlikely that Hamas will free all the hostages until they are convinced it will lead to the end of the war. Why return hostages just to allow Netanyahu to have open season?

If Netanyahu loses power, he will go to jail. It has been true since even before October 7 that Netanyahu is will to sacrifice both Israelis and Palestinians to keep himself out of jail. There is no way he will resign. He could be forced from power and I have no idea why Biden has not forced a rift to cause the Israeli government to collapse. Given all the resources at Biden's disposal, it shouldn't be that hard. Collapse the government and let Israelis elect a successor.

It’s like saying you want to discuss 9/11; but please don’t “obsess” over the taliban or Al Quaeda. Yes, Hamas, the closest thing Palestinians have to self governance and a means to defend themselves, is relevant to the convo. You want to dismiss them from the conversation because their terrorism is not helpful to the Palestinian martyr narrative.

If expecting Hamas to surrender is not a realistic outcome, then the outlook for the war and a Palestinian state is bleak.

I have no further comments on Netanyahu beyond ideologically disagreeing with his right wing politics and generally believing that both Israel and Palestinians will need more moderate governance to move forward. But that doesn’t seem like a realistic possibility, so the status quo will continue. Grassroot activism should be not to eliminate one side or the other, but to root out extremism on both sides of the conflict to move forward.

I am now starting to understand your obsession with Hamas. You have either never learned about or forgotten about Palestinians outside Gaza. Hamas has had very little influence in the West Bank. Hamas in not even the officially-recognized governing body of Palestinians. Yes, the PA is worthless and should be ignored, but at least you should acknowledge them.

What you don't understand is for people like me and for the vast majority of protesters, Hamas is not important. We don't choose our political positions based on what Hamas says or does. If we say we oppose Israel's bombing of civilians and you say, "but Hamas...", we know it is just an attempt to deflect. If we want to talk about the future of Palestine, none of us supports Hamas having a role. You can say, "but Hamas..." all you want but, again, it is just a diversion.

So interesting that no amount of explanation can stop you from obsessing about Hamas, but we are supposed to just immediately shut up about Netanyahu because you have said that you "ideologically disagree" with him. Has one single person in this thread expressed any sort of ideological agreement with Hamas? Not to my knowledge but that hasn't stopped you from bringing the group up in every single post. If you are going to expect us to be responsible for Hamas, you had better believe that we are going to hold you responsible for Netanyahu.

Well it’s actually the same thing - Hamas isn’t important to you, but they’re not immaterial, and Bibi is not immaterial either. I think he should go. You say Hamas cannot go. So you’re approaching this in a bit of a hypocritical way. I could just as easily say you’re “obsessed” with Netanyahu, if I were making the argument that he is separate from the equation - but he’s not and neither is Hamas.

Yes, the PA is weak and as you said, is easily ignored because they have no respect and will not be a viable option. I see no existing viable options. But at least I’m open to hearing them.