Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitism?

[Anonymous]

I believe it is. All Zionism says is Jews have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. It's a central tenet of Judaism.

Anti-Zionism says they have no right to self-defense and denies the historical connection to Israel.

So when people say I'm not against Judaism, just Zionism...they make no sense. Zionism and Judaism are inseparable.

[jsteele]

Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

[Anonymous]

Most people who say they are anti-Zionist lately also think “the Israeli Jews should go back to Poland.” So yes, that is anti-semitic.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Most people who say they are anti-Zionist lately also think “the Israeli Jews should go back to Poland.” So yes, that is anti-semitic.

I don't know if it is most people but I agree with you about those who do say this.

[Anonymous]

No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most people who say they are anti-Zionist lately also think “the Israeli Jews should go back to Poland.” So yes, that is anti-semitic.

How do you know most people think this? I'm sure some very vocal people say this you cannot know what most think.

[Anonymous]

Jeff says it right, but to the OP, it depends on how you define Zionism, which you did. However, others define it differently, and hence part of the problem.

Ultimately, and I say this as an American Jew, Netanyahu and Likud have created and are generally imposing an Aparteid government on the Christians and Muslims in their land.

That is not how a democracy is supposed to work, and particularly one that gets so much money from the US and its taxpayers.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

Not sure what you mean by my "version of Zionism"?

I'm not a supporter of Netanyahu or Likud, far from it.

I'm for robust criticism of the government of Israel. But saying Israel is itself an illegitimate state is a different matter.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

Not sure what you mean by my "version of Zionism"?

I'm not a supporter of Netanyahu or Likud, far from it.

I'm for robust criticism of the government of Israel. But saying Israel is itself an illegitimate state is a different matter.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but the language of your original post suggests that the only people who have rights in the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people are Jews. You say that Jews have the right to self-determination. But what about non-Jews? You suggest that Jews have a right of self-defense. But, again, what about non-Jews? Based on how you define Zionism, what are the rights of non-Jews in the ancestral Jewish homeland?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

OP did not say "Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security." And that is not required under Zionism. For example, 1948 lines shared land and even today Israel does not hold the full Levant. But even if that is what OP said, it is a common feature of nations that they seek the right to define those who can be citizens and residents of the land they occupy as a country--and the right to defend that land. Israel was granted statehood. So if you accept that act, why should the only Jewish country (among many nations where there is an official or de facto religion and/or cultural identity) in the world be different?

I only point this out because your first statement fits within a very antisemitic narrative that Jews view themselves as superior. As a jew, my experience is most jews are motivated by a fear of extinction.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

Couldn’t possibly agree more with ^^^. Thank you, Jeff.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

OP did not say "Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security." And that is not required under Zionism. For example, 1948 lines shared land and even today Israel does not hold the full Levant. But even if that is what OP said, it is a common feature of nations that they seek the right to define those who can be citizens and residents of the land they occupy as a country--and the right to defend that land. Israel was granted statehood. So if you accept that act, why should the only Jewish country (among many nations where there is an official or de facto religion and/or cultural identity) in the world be different?

I only point this out because your first statement fits within a very antisemitic narrative that Jews view themselves as superior. As a jew, my experience is most jews are motivated by a fear of extinction.

Well, this is just confusing. Either Zionism doesn't bestow superiority to Jews and suggesting that it does is anti-Semitic. Or, Zionism does bestow superiority but pointing that out is anti-Semitic because every other country does the same thing. So, it appears either position is anti-Semitic.

But, what is your concept of Zionism? Does it, in your view, allow equal rights for non-Jews and equal security for non-Jews? Or is it your second version in which Jews call all the shots?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

Don’t attack people. They won’t have to retaliate. Don’t elect terrorists - that never ends well.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Your version of Zionism is Jewish supremacy. According to you, Jews have a right to a homeland that supersedes the rights of anyone else who might be living in that same place. Jewish rights to security are more important than the right of anyone else to security.

I support the right of Jews to have a homeland as long as the rights of Jews are equal to the rights of others with whom they cohabitate.

I do not accept the idea that Jews have greater rights than non-Jews.

Opposing your version of Zionism is clearly not anti-Semitic. To the contrary, opposing the Jewish supremacy that you promote is simply statement of support for equal rights.

Opposing the idea that Jews simply deserve the same rights and security as anyone else is, obviously, anti-Semitic.

Don’t attack people. They won’t have to retaliate. Don’t elect terrorists - that never ends well.

That is not a very constructive statement and ignores the reality of modern day Israel. But, I will point out that Israel elected terrorists and it seems to have gone fairly well. Two of them were awarded Nobel prizes.

[Anonymous]

But why is the ancestral land more important than modern day Europe? Europe is just as intertwined in Jewish history.