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Reply to "Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitism?"
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[quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous]There’s also a third group of people here you fail to mention- sovereign Israelis, who have a right to exist and defend themselves. They do not have a right to do what settlers are doing, but they have a right to live in peace within established borders, and that means a Jewish majority state, which I do not hold as a supremacist belief, because anything other than a Jewish majority state will lead to the annihilation of the Jews there. It also means full rights for the non Jewish minority within Israel, which is currently in practice. [/quote] Your position that Israel must be a Jewish majority state is absolutely a Jewish supremacist position regardless of how you consider it. As I have said before, you will only tolerate minority rights for as long as they don't threaten Jewish power. You provide a justification for that position, but it doesn't change the facts about your position. What would happen if as a result of demographic trends the current non-Jewish population grew significantly to the point where it rivaled the Jewish population in numbers? What would you advocate then? As for my concept of a Palestinian state, I think it really depends on the Israeli state. Your racist assumption that Palestinians are not capable of ruling themselves ignores that the Israelis are only able to govern themselves as a result of US financial and military support. Israel would be a much different country if that support didn't exist. Under current circumstances, Palestinians have no hope of a state and their only option is resistance. The proposals for a two-state solutions have practical drawbacks that will be the continual source of problems. Therefore, I think the only solution is a single secular democratic state in which the right of return for both Jews and Palestinians is protected. The state, whatever name it ends up with, can be a sanctuary for both peoples, guaranteeing the safety and security of both. [/quote] What fantasy are you living in which you think the Palestinians and Jews could live in one secular democratic state? Look at Hamas in Gaza. What about that is secular or democratic? Ironically, israel (particularly Tel Aviv) is much closer to your ideals than any Palestinian area. I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living under extremist islamic rule, let alone a Jew who would be murdered. I have no racist assumptions about Palestinians. Only evidence based on years of history. I wish they could live side by side in civilized peace. I also wish the Israeli government was more moderate - but even with liberal leaders in the past, Arafat rejected a two state solution. It has to be a two state solution. A Jewish majority state and a Palestinian one. And Palestinians need legitimate and as you say “democratic and secular” governing entities. Extremism on both sides will only continue this animosity. [/quote] Again with Hamas. Is Hamas the only Palestinian group whose name you know? Nothing is going to happen quickly. So trying to envision a lasting settlement based on the realities of today is foolish. As I said, under current circumstances, the only option for Palestinians is resistance. That will probably continue into the future. Maybe Israel will successfully wipe them all out and the one state solution will simply be a larger Israel. Maybe the international climate will change so that Israel will be forced to agree to other arrangements. In the meantime, Israel is in the process of creating facts on the ground. When we reach the point where two generations or more of Israelis have called West Bank settlements home, it is going to be impossible to uproot them. What will be left for a Palestinian state will be bantustans that are not independently viable. A two-state solution is being categorically eliminated by Israel right before our eyes. So, one day, Israel will have to confront reality. Will it ethnically cleanse the West Bank, or will it allow the Palestinians rights of citizenship. I would expect a very slow transition that goes through long periods of slowly increasing autonomy. Or, it could end quickly with the Palestinians pushed across the Jordan River. Those like you proclaiming support for a two-state solution simply are not acknowledging reality. The last Israeli leader to show sympathy for a two-state solution was killed by another Israeli. The same could literally happen to Netanyahu at the hands of one of his own cabinet ministers. By the time Israel is in a position to consider an authentic two-state solution, it will be too late because there won't be land for a Palestinian state. The Israelis themselves are making a one-state solution inevitable. The only question is whether it will be with or without Palestinians. Just to deviate toward history for a bit. Given your obsession with Hamas, you should know that the group is popular now, far beyond Gaza, because it is effectively resisting Israel. Hamas was originally popular because it actually provided services to the people. In contrast to the corruption characterizing most Palestinian groups, Hamas helped the average Palestinian. Then, it became the only game in town. Hamas was encouraged by Israel from the beginning. Netanyahu supported the organization financially even recently. This was all an effort to neuter Fatah which was a secular organization. Israel systematically destroyed any Palestinian organization that looked to be the slightest bit effective, leaving only the collaborationist PA that has no support among Palestinians and Hamas that Israel wrongly-believed it could control. If Israel would allow secular organizations to thrive, they could contest Hamas for popularity. But Israel does not want such organizations to exist. It is much easier to tell the world that it is fighting Hamas terrorists rather than democratic secularists who reject violence. The Palestinians of the West Bank are fully capable of building a strong and effective secular society. The only question is whether they will be allowed to. Finally, the Biden plan to put the PA in charge of Gaza is a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody has less legitimacy. If any Palestinians are left in Gaza when Israel gets through with them, the last people they will want to rule them are the collaborators being foisted on them. The first step the international community can take is to pressure Israel to allow the growth of homegrown Palestinian secular organizations. [/quote] We are in agreement that Netanyahu - and right wing extremism - is ultimately bad for Israel. However I wouldn’t entirely blame Israel for secular institutions like Fatah failing in Palestinian territories. It’s been 75 years of turmoil and resistance against progress like a two state solution. There just doesn’t appear to be a sizable moderate/secular coalition amongst Palestinians. With regards to your point about Hamas gaining popularity due to its services offered to the people and a vision for resistance… you know who else had a similar platform? The Nazi party. I’m not “obsessed” with Hamas, but if you want to consider Gaza one twenty year case study in Palestinian history, the story for self governance isn’t a good one. Hamas is corrupt and terrorizes israel. Israel should not have to live with Hamas next door, nor should Palestinians in the West Bank have to live with violent and extremist settler violence. I don’t consider Israel’s mission in Gaza to be ethnic cleansing. There are indeed two sides to this story, and the fact of the matter is that Hamas has built a network of tunnels into Egypt throughout Gaza, provoked an attack murdering 1,000+ Israelis (targeting civilian kibbutzes and a pedestrian music festival),kidnapped several hundred more Israelis, and have stored artillery in civilian locations and put Palestinians in harms way in order to make them martyrs. It doesn’t minimize the unbearable toll on civilian life this war has caused, but it’s also not legitimate resistance: it’s terrorism and I’m not sure why Israel should have to live with Hamas just because they resort to putting innocent people in harms way. Would any other army be held to that standard? I don’t know. But Hamas in Gaza has jeopardized a two state solution as much as right wing Israelis. My idea of a ceasefire/next step would be releasing the remaining hostages, Hamas surrendering and Netanyahu resigning. [/quote]
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