APS - Symphonic Band marching band requirement

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Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.


Op here I was just asking to find out if there was special flexibility given for documented other music commitments. Sounds like probably not and DC was lukewarm on doing band at school anyway since she strongly prefers playing with an orchestra so she will just stick to that. No big deal.


Do you mean only participating in the regional youth orchestra? Because ours actually requires that students be participating in a school performance group as well. I assume it’s an agreement with the MMEA to prevent the youth orchestra from cannibalizing the school music programs.

So check the fine print on her orchestra before you make a decision!


This is true of all of the local youth orchestras that I know of. They can make exceptions but not for "don't want to". You are correct that it is to protect school music programs - and it also benefits young musicians who benefit from the various music experiences.


This youth orchestra meets on Saturday, which is why it isn't possible for DC to be in marching band. Separately, she asked for permission to miss a week of orchestra for district band and they asked her to skip district band in favor of the orchestra (which she did).


She made the wrong choice. Seriously. District Band is a fun intense few days and is a great way to grow musically. Missing one rehearsal is not the end of the world. Kids get sick, families travel, etc. It happens. If she chooses not to do band in school, then she has missed her opportunity for District Band. How disappointing.

Re Saturdays and marching band - she could probably find some flexibility from both groups if she needed it. But her teacher and the youth orchestra have put in some strange, detrimental requirements. So it's hard to give you real advice, given that.


Sounds to me that OP's daughter's passion is the extracurricular orchestra and she's absolutely fine with not doing high school band. According to OP, it's not that big of a deal.

Personally, I think one of the biggest obstacles to marching band is parents. Parents who don't like the amount of time it takes during the summer; who complain when their kid isn't in the car one minute after scheduled rehearsal time; who don't like the all-day events; and who don't see the purpose of all that time or the value. Meanwhile, same parents don't seem to have any issues with sports rehearsals or games.


Some of our kids are in multiple activities and if the band instructor is not flexible it’s a problem. For us there is a hierarchy of activities and private orchestra is first, then a mix of sports and music. But, if you have a child in sports and multiple music activities it’s a nightmare as lots of conflicts.


And that's the key: a hierarchy of activities and priorities. You can't always do it all, nor should you have to be able to!
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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!


Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.


Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.


Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?


No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.


I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.


DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.


+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.


The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.


if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.


+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.


No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).


More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.


Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.
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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!


Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.


Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.


Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?


No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.


I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.


DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.


+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.


The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.


if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.


+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.


No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).


More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.


Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.

For better or worse (and correctly or incorrectly), parents and students have decided that sports are more important for college admissions than band. That means that band is losing members to sports and not the other way around. It's incumbent on the band director to find a solution to have a strong band.

-- fervent marching band supporter who acknowledges reality
Anonymous
For those who see no value, or believe other activities are more favorably viewed by college admissions:

https://www.360-orthopedics.com/blog/marching-band-is-a-sport
https://wmea.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HSMusicAndCollegeSuccess.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Do-marching-bands-have-any-benefits-for-high-school-students-and-teachers-in-the-United-States

People who have any real understanding of marching band and what it involves understand the physical demands as well as the academic benefits. Fortunately, college admissions officers understand.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:For those who see no value, or believe other activities are more favorably viewed by college admissions:

https://www.360-orthopedics.com/blog/marching-band-is-a-sport
https://wmea.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HSMusicAndCollegeSuccess.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Do-marching-bands-have-any-benefits-for-high-school-students-and-teachers-in-the-United-States

People who have any real understanding of marching band and what it involves understand the physical demands as well as the academic benefits. Fortunately, college admissions officers understand.


Music is better than nothing but there is no way it helps as much as being a recruited varsity athlete. Jeff Selingo makes this very clear in his book. I have a music kid, so I wish it was not true but it is.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those who see no value, or believe other activities are more favorably viewed by college admissions:

https://www.360-orthopedics.com/blog/marching-band-is-a-sport
https://wmea.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HSMusicAndCollegeSuccess.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Do-marching-bands-have-any-benefits-for-high-school-students-and-teachers-in-the-United-States

People who have any real understanding of marching band and what it involves understand the physical demands as well as the academic benefits. Fortunately, college admissions officers understand.


Music is better than nothing but there is no way it helps as much as being a recruited varsity athlete. Jeff Selingo makes this very clear in his book. I have a music kid, so I wish it was not true but it is.

APS parents would pick sports over music even for a kid who isn't anywhere close to being a recruited athlete. They just find it more impressive. I'm not saying it's correct, but that's how it's viewed.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those who see no value, or believe other activities are more favorably viewed by college admissions:

https://www.360-orthopedics.com/blog/marching-band-is-a-sport
https://wmea.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HSMusicAndCollegeSuccess.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Do-marching-bands-have-any-benefits-for-high-school-students-and-teachers-in-the-United-States

People who have any real understanding of marching band and what it involves understand the physical demands as well as the academic benefits. Fortunately, college admissions officers understand.


Music is better than nothing but there is no way it helps as much as being a recruited varsity athlete. Jeff Selingo makes this very clear in his book. I have a music kid, so I wish it was not true but it is.


That's only because sports bring in money for the school and they want to recruit athletes for their sports programs. Still, when looking for qualified students who are likely to succeed, the value of marching band is just as good.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those who see no value, or believe other activities are more favorably viewed by college admissions:

https://www.360-orthopedics.com/blog/marching-band-is-a-sport
https://wmea.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HSMusicAndCollegeSuccess.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Do-marching-bands-have-any-benefits-for-high-school-students-and-teachers-in-the-United-States

People who have any real understanding of marching band and what it involves understand the physical demands as well as the academic benefits. Fortunately, college admissions officers understand.


Music is better than nothing but there is no way it helps as much as being a recruited varsity athlete. Jeff Selingo makes this very clear in his book. I have a music kid, so I wish it was not true but it is.

APS parents would pick sports over music even for a kid who isn't anywhere close to being a recruited athlete. They just find it more impressive. I'm not saying it's correct, but that's how it's viewed.


Yep. Parents are part of the problem!
From another article )https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/physical-demands-of-marching-band-should-not-be-ignored/article_6fd21be0-8805-11e7-b7f4-776f3f74557a.html):

"One person who recognized the physical requirements of marching band was Hall of Fame basketball coach Bobby Knight. In a 1987 interview with Sports Illustrated, Knight explained how he took his teams to watch drum corps to observe the hard work.

“'If a basketball team trained as hard as these kids do, it would be unbelievable,” the former Indiana coach said. “Besides, once they see them practice 12 hours a day, my players think I’m a helluva lot easier.'”

Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!


Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.


Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.


Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?


No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.


I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.


DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.


+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.


The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.


if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.


+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.


No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).


More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.


Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.



For better or worse (and correctly or incorrectly), parents and students have decided that sports are more important for college admissions than band. That means that band is losing members to sports and not the other way around. It's incumbent on the band director to find a solution to have a strong band.

-- fervent marching band supporter who acknowledges reality


They have, yes. SOciety values sports and glorifies athletes. Colleges recruit athletes because winning teams bring in money for the university. That doesn't mean colleges don't weigh band favorably in considering admissions. They aren't trying to recruit an entire class of sports team members.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!


Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.


Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.


Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?


No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.


I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.


DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.


+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.


The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.


if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.


+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.


No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).


More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.


Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.



Hard NO! We do sports, private orchestra and all the stuff at school. Marching bad for us is not academic credit. If you blow off private orchestra you get kicked out. You can miss for illness but not anything else, including sport, vacation and birthdays. If it comes down to a school performance and private orchestra, private win out. You don't understand how it works. Why would a kid put aside their sports for cheer on someone else doing sports. We leave band early to go to sports and vice versa. We make it work but its a struggle with homework.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:For those who see no value, or believe other activities are more favorably viewed by college admissions:

https://www.360-orthopedics.com/blog/marching-band-is-a-sport
https://wmea.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HSMusicAndCollegeSuccess.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Do-marching-bands-have-any-benefits-for-high-school-students-and-teachers-in-the-United-States

People who have any real understanding of marching band and what it involves understand the physical demands as well as the academic benefits. Fortunately, college admissions officers understand.


Music is better than nothing but there is no way it helps as much as being a recruited varsity athlete. Jeff Selingo makes this very clear in his book. I have a music kid, so I wish it was not true but it is.

APS parents would pick sports over music even for a kid who isn't anywhere close to being a recruited athlete. They just find it more impressive. I'm not saying it's correct, but that's how it's viewed.


Yep. Parents are part of the problem!
From another article )https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/physical-demands-of-marching-band-should-not-be-ignored/article_6fd21be0-8805-11e7-b7f4-776f3f74557a.html):

"One person who recognized the physical requirements of marching band was Hall of Fame basketball coach Bobby Knight. In a 1987 interview with Sports Illustrated, Knight explained how he took his teams to watch drum corps to observe the hard work.

“'If a basketball team trained as hard as these kids do, it would be unbelievable,” the former Indiana coach said. “Besides, once they see them practice 12 hours a day, my players think I’m a helluva lot easier.'”


Yeah, there's respect for amazing marching bands, but not for mediocre high school bands. APS bands get no respect because the program isn't impressive. The band director needs to figure out how to improve the program so kids sign up.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.


Op here I was just asking to find out if there was special flexibility given for documented other music commitments. Sounds like probably not and DC was lukewarm on doing band at school anyway since she strongly prefers playing with an orchestra so she will just stick to that. No big deal.


Do you mean only participating in the regional youth orchestra? Because ours actually requires that students be participating in a school performance group as well. I assume it’s an agreement with the MMEA to prevent the youth orchestra from cannibalizing the school music programs.

So check the fine print on her orchestra before you make a decision!


This is true of all of the local youth orchestras that I know of. They can make exceptions but not for "don't want to". You are correct that it is to protect school music programs - and it also benefits young musicians who benefit from the various music experiences.


This youth orchestra meets on Saturday, which is why it isn't possible for DC to be in marching band. Separately, she asked for permission to miss a week of orchestra for district band and they asked her to skip district band in favor of the orchestra (which she did).


She made the wrong choice. Seriously. District Band is a fun intense few days and is a great way to grow musically. Missing one rehearsal is not the end of the world. Kids get sick, families travel, etc. It happens. If she chooses not to do band in school, then she has missed her opportunity for District Band. How disappointing.

Re Saturdays and marching band - she could probably find some flexibility from both groups if she needed it. But her teacher and the youth orchestra have put in some strange, detrimental requirements. So it's hard to give you real advice, given that.


Sounds to me that OP's daughter's passion is the extracurricular orchestra and she's absolutely fine with not doing high school band. According to OP, it's not that big of a deal.

Personally, I think one of the biggest obstacles to marching band is parents. Parents who don't like the amount of time it takes during the summer; who complain when their kid isn't in the car one minute after scheduled rehearsal time; who don't like the all-day events; and who don't see the purpose of all that time or the value. Meanwhile, same parents don't seem to have any issues with sports rehearsals or games.


Some of our kids are in multiple activities and if the band instructor is not flexible it’s a problem. For us there is a hierarchy of activities and private orchestra is first, then a mix of sports and music. But, if you have a child in sports and multiple music activities it’s a nightmare as lots of conflicts.


And that's the key: a hierarchy of activities and priorities. You can't always do it all, nor should you have to be able to!


+1 HS is really when kids start having to make choices about what is most important to them. You can't do all things well.

There definitely is a bias towards the sports. I don't think people would be as down on a soccer coach who wasn't flexible about missing practice to go a band rehearsal. People seem just fine with coaches who think their sport should come before all else. Or if you want to do a big role in a school musical it's going to knock out all other activities for a while. And that's ok, you have to make choices. Marching band is intense but it's really only the first two months of school (generally done first weekend of November). After that, band is a pretty low-key activity unless you choose to audition for additional ensembles like jazz band.

Do all the sports-obsessed parents really think their kid will be a recruited athlete? Most will not be, it's just a nice EC, same as music.

And, it IS possible for some to do a Fall sport and band. I know a couple years ago Yorktown had a football player marching with the band. DD had friends who did cross-country + marching band in the Fall.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!


Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.


Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.


Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?


No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.


I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.


DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.


+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.


The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.


if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.


+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.


No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).


More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.


Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.



Hard NO! We do sports, private orchestra and all the stuff at school. Marching bad for us is not academic credit. If you blow off private orchestra you get kicked out. You can miss for illness but not anything else, including sport, vacation and birthdays. If it comes down to a school performance and private orchestra, private win out. You don't understand how it works. Why would a kid put aside their sports for cheer on someone else doing sports. We leave band early to go to sports and vice versa. We make it work but its a struggle with homework.


Why do you even bother doing band?
Like any team sport, band is a commitment to others and not just yourself. It's not right for you to come and go as you please because it takes away from the other members' experience.
Anonymous
The issue is just that a 70 person marching band just doesn't enough people to be a strong program. The marching band program needs to do something to fix itself. The school is big enough to support a much larger band.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!


Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.


Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.


Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?


No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.


I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.


DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.


+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.


The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.


if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.


+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.


No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).


More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.


Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.

For better or worse (and correctly or incorrectly), parents and students have decided that sports are more important for college admissions than band. That means that band is losing members to sports and not the other way around. It's incumbent on the band director to find a solution to have a strong band.

-- fervent marching band supporter who acknowledges reality


Or just some kids want to do music *and* play a sport because they enjoy doing both.
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