Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”

[Anonymous]

This is gonna be long. Please bear with me. I'm in my late 50s and grew up on a farm in Indiana - if you want to talk about limited opportunities and lack of diversity. My family may not have been 'cultured' but were well educated even though most of that education was not in any formal setting. We were/are able to make connections between others and ourselves, recognize mastery of profession, innovative/resourceful and read extensively. <Shout out to the Texan extolling the value of public libraries!> It was an excellent foundation.

I've got an MBA and my undergraduate is in the Classics (Latin/Classical Greek). I spent the first 15 years after college living all over the world and I speak 5 languages other than English. I've never lived in NY but could hold my own in just about any 'cultured' setting. What I said in my first paragraph about making connections and recognizing mastery I think is key. Culture is always changing. Being able to understand it and the effort/skill it took to create something (even if you don't like it) is important as is being able to talk about it.

I didn't used to like hip hop until 2008 - that's when I saw America's Best Dance Crew on TV. Wow! I'd seen So You Think You Can Dance but it wasn't until I saw ABDC that I really got hip hop and all that is part of that 'culture'. I started watching it with the kids which led to all sorts of conversations about style, influences, etc. - all on TV, all at no cost. Then, the kids and I started making playlists for each other as part of our 'musical education'. We'd talk about why we liked something, why we didn't and what influences we could hear in the music. Hearing a song in a different genre than the one it was originally performed in also led to some awesome discussions. We're having 'cultural' conversations like intellectuals do in our low-brow, lower middle class home because we think, understand and articulate our thoughts.

Finally, we've done a 'classic movie' night with the kids since they were little. We focused on movies that had a lot of cultural references and that were engaging. Let me tell you, watching the original Bad News Bears led to a lot of discussions. We also attend a lot of high school theater. You don't have to have fabulous actors and amazing sets to get the benefit of 'culture'. When I was in the hinterlands of the former Soviet Union, sets, costumes and performers were much reduced. The dancer/singers were of much higher quality than a high school production but you don't need to ride in a Rolls Royce to know how great transportation by car can be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is gonna be long. Please bear with me. I'm in my late 50s and grew up on a farm in Indiana - if you want to talk about limited opportunities and lack of diversity. My family may not have been 'cultured' but were well educated even though most of that education was not in any formal setting. We were/are able to make connections between others and ourselves, recognize mastery of profession, innovative/resourceful and read extensively. <Shout out to the Texan extolling the value of public libraries!> It was an excellent foundation.

I've got an MBA and my undergraduate is in the Classics (Latin/Classical Greek). I spent the first 15 years after college living all over the world and I speak 5 languages other than English. I've never lived in NY but could hold my own in just about any 'cultured' setting. What I said in my first paragraph about making connections and recognizing mastery I think is key. Culture is always changing. Being able to understand it and the effort/skill it took to create something (even if you don't like it) is important as is being able to talk about it.

I didn't used to like hip hop until 2008 - that's when I saw America's Best Dance Crew on TV. Wow! I'd seen So You Think You Can Dance but it wasn't until I saw ABDC that I really got hip hop and all that is part of that 'culture'. I started watching it with the kids which led to all sorts of conversations about style, influences, etc. - all on TV, all at no cost. Then, the kids and I started making playlists for each other as part of our 'musical education'. We'd talk about why we liked something, why we didn't and what influences we could hear in the music. Hearing a song in a different genre than the one it was originally performed in also led to some awesome discussions. We're having 'cultural' conversations like intellectuals do in our low-brow, lower middle class home because we think, understand and articulate our thoughts.

Finally, we've done a 'classic movie' night with the kids since they were little. We focused on movies that had a lot of cultural references and that were engaging. Let me tell you, watching the original Bad News Bears led to a lot of discussions. We also attend a lot of high school theater. You don't have to have fabulous actors and amazing sets to get the benefit of 'culture'. When I was in the hinterlands of the former Soviet Union, sets, costumes and performers were much reduced. The dancer/singers were of much higher quality than a high school production but you don't need to ride in a Rolls Royce to know how great transportation by car can be.

Bad News Bears? LMAO. What did your family think of Caddyshack?
You slay me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op you should read this economic/class theory that explains the US. I found it on dcum before.

You are looking to the in the E section (if I remember it right). I’ll find it and link it. Wait a minute while I look…

This is the link: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/652885.page

DP. Thanks for posting this! Interesting!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is gonna be long. Please bear with me. I'm in my late 50s and grew up on a farm in Indiana - if you want to talk about limited opportunities and lack of diversity. My family may not have been 'cultured' but were well educated even though most of that education was not in any formal setting. We were/are able to make connections between others and ourselves, recognize mastery of profession, innovative/resourceful and read extensively. <Shout out to the Texan extolling the value of public libraries!> It was an excellent foundation.

I've got an MBA and my undergraduate is in the Classics (Latin/Classical Greek). I spent the first 15 years after college living all over the world and I speak 5 languages other than English. I've never lived in NY but could hold my own in just about any 'cultured' setting. What I said in my first paragraph about making connections and recognizing mastery I think is key. Culture is always changing. Being able to understand it and the effort/skill it took to create something (even if you don't like it) is important as is being able to talk about it.

I didn't used to like hip hop until 2008 - that's when I saw America's Best Dance Crew on TV. Wow! I'd seen So You Think You Can Dance but it wasn't until I saw ABDC that I really got hip hop and all that is part of that 'culture'. I started watching it with the kids which led to all sorts of conversations about style, influences, etc. - all on TV, all at no cost. Then, the kids and I started making playlists for each other as part of our 'musical education'. We'd talk about why we liked something, why we didn't and what influences we could hear in the music. Hearing a song in a different genre than the one it was originally performed in also led to some awesome discussions. We're having 'cultural' conversations like intellectuals do in our low-brow, lower middle class home because we think, understand and articulate our thoughts.

Finally, we've done a 'classic movie' night with the kids since they were little. We focused on movies that had a lot of cultural references and that were engaging. Let me tell you, watching the original Bad News Bears led to a lot of discussions. We also attend a lot of high school theater. You don't have to have fabulous actors and amazing sets to get the benefit of 'culture'. When I was in the hinterlands of the former Soviet Union, sets, costumes and performers were much reduced. The dancer/singers were of much higher quality than a high school production but you don't need to ride in a Rolls Royce to know how great transportation by car can be.

Bad News Bears? LMAO. What did your family think of Caddyshack?
You slay me.

PP here. To my great disappointment, the kids didn't like Caddyshack! I have to say that it wasn't as good as I remembered it. But! They did like Birdcage and Casablanca. The Full Monty is next on the list! You CAN watch classic, engaging movies and relate them to current events.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP about 15 years ago the mark of what's considered cultured changed from a deep familiarity with 'old master' European works to a moderate knowledge of art from as many foreign cultures as possible. Having a deep knowledge of foreign films and foreign cuisines in particular are what culture snobs prize the most nowadays.

For films, the Criterion Collection is the gold standard for classic and modern classic selections, and they have a streaming service. With subtitles! You could pick one movie a month to watch with your son. Knowing the films of Wong Kar-Wai, Akira Kurosawa, Hou Hsiao-Hsien, Jean-Luc Godard, and Federico Fellini in particular are seen as a mark of being cultured.

For food, you want a working knowledge of cuisines from as many countries as possible. The more, and the more obscure, the better. But simply eating at a restaurant isn't enough nowadays. Knowing how to cook authentic cultural dishes is what people see as impressive, especially if the dish uses many different spices. Learning how to prepare one Vietnamese, Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Oaxacan, or Ethiopian dish a month could be a fun thing to do with your son.

Ironically, steeping your son in your cultural traditions from your home country would give him more 'cultural clout' in America than him knowing about old European stuff. He would be viewed as an 'authentic' cultural expert on your home country, which is seen as unique and interesting over here. People would want to get to know him to learn the 'insider' cultural experiences of your country, so THEY could be considered more cultured!

Interesting! Well, we are from a fairly boring European country so I guess not much ‘cultural clout’!
But it’s a great angle for selling DS his culture of origin of which he isn’t quite a fan yet (except for sweets!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the New York Times every day, The Atlantic, and the New Yorker. You can add to that list but that would get you a long way.

This is good advice. I grew up middle class and pretty broke in the Midwest. My parents longed for a different life and we got the Sunday NYT, the Atlantic and the New Yorker at home. This was back in the heyday of magazines so we also had stacks of fashion magazines and Vanity Fair. We also watched CBS Sunday Morning before church. That all gave me a glimpse into a different world and the ability to slip into college and my first job in NYC with a little bit of camouflage.

Nowadays culture is so driven by money that I would only bother because you want your kids to know and learn, not because you want to equip them to be part of certain worlds. Those worlds are mostly gone.

I don’t think being cultured will give my kid any tangible advantage, that’s for sure.
I value being a cultured person (in a broad sense, from music to current events) in and of itself and I just hope my son will also take pride in being well-read and all around knowledgeable one day.
-OP

OP, I’m legitimately inspired that you care.

I take a lot of pride in being well-read and all-around knowledgeable, but I’ll be the first to say that it’s an increasingly lonely or even scoffed-at effort. My child’s fancy private school is overrun by real estate investors and developers, tech execs, and other new millennium white collar jobs. I go to book clubs in the neighborhood and only 2-3 of us ever read the books. The parent pushback about teaching the basics of literature, arts and even history is constant. I grew up in an era and place when white collar=doctor and lawyer, and parents read books and multiple newspapers daily, and could help us with history and English homework. Now anyone who even has time to read a book is seen as antisocial or an underemployed slacker.

It makes me sad for where we’re at now.

Thank you so much for your kind words, PP!
How is it possible to be in a book club and not read the books? I mean, isn’t the whole point to discuss them?
Also, why do parents push back on literature and arts? I thought the whole point of being at a private school was to get some tried and true basics of humanities (since in public many things are too “progressive”, at least in the blue states).
I don’t know if you are open to it, but if you could find some emigres from the former USSR around you - many of them are quite cultured, though of course skewed towards certain things.
I generally share your sense of loneliness - I think with age I started to care about too many things in the world around me, and it’s hard to find people who not only know what I am talking about, but also don’t have extreme opinions or are at least capable of accepting the fact that someone has a different one.
With books and movies and shows it’s mostly that people don’t watch or read much, but with current events it’s mostly opinions.
-OP

OP, are you from the former USSR? If yes, I'll offer some cultural observations.

Yes I am, but I’ve lived in the US for a while now. I’ve met quite a few culture snobs from the old country, but I think their culture knowledge base is a bit outdated and will be perceived as obscure by many US intellectuals. Or maybe they simply lack American cultural knowledge?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

[Anonymous]

OP here, I’ve stated a new leg of my cultural journey by watching Frasier; so far it’s going great! Special thanks to the PP who mentioned it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

My background is in architecture and I worked in the engineering field for many years and this is consistent with my experience. In fact I would go further and say that there is some disdain for art and culture, at least in some corporate environments I've worked in. It's sad to encounter people with such firm opinions on what they've never learned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the New York Times every day, The Atlantic, and the New Yorker. You can add to that list but that would get you a long way.

This is good advice. I grew up middle class and pretty broke in the Midwest. My parents longed for a different life and we got the Sunday NYT, the Atlantic and the New Yorker at home. This was back in the heyday of magazines so we also had stacks of fashion magazines and Vanity Fair. We also watched CBS Sunday Morning before church. That all gave me a glimpse into a different world and the ability to slip into college and my first job in NYC with a little bit of camouflage.

Nowadays culture is so driven by money that I would only bother because you want your kids to know and learn, not because you want to equip them to be part of certain worlds. Those worlds are mostly gone.

I don’t think being cultured will give my kid any tangible advantage, that’s for sure.
I value being a cultured person (in a broad sense, from music to current events) in and of itself and I just hope my son will also take pride in being well-read and all around knowledgeable one day.
-OP

OP, I’m legitimately inspired that you care.

I take a lot of pride in being well-read and all-around knowledgeable, but I’ll be the first to say that it’s an increasingly lonely or even scoffed-at effort. My child’s fancy private school is overrun by real estate investors and developers, tech execs, and other new millennium white collar jobs. I go to book clubs in the neighborhood and only 2-3 of us ever read the books. The parent pushback about teaching the basics of literature, arts and even history is constant. I grew up in an era and place when white collar=doctor and lawyer, and parents read books and multiple newspapers daily, and could help us with history and English homework. Now anyone who even has time to read a book is seen as antisocial or an underemployed slacker.

It makes me sad for where we’re at now.

Thank you so much for your kind words, PP!
How is it possible to be in a book club and not read the books? I mean, isn’t the whole point to discuss them?
Also, why do parents push back on literature and arts? I thought the whole point of being at a private school was to get some tried and true basics of humanities (since in public many things are too “progressive”, at least in the blue states).
I don’t know if you are open to it, but if you could find some emigres from the former USSR around you - many of them are quite cultured, though of course skewed towards certain things.
I generally share your sense of loneliness - I think with age I started to care about too many things in the world around me, and it’s hard to find people who not only know what I am talking about, but also don’t have extreme opinions or are at least capable of accepting the fact that someone has a different one.
With books and movies and shows it’s mostly that people don’t watch or read much, but with current events it’s mostly opinions.
-OP

OP, are you from the former USSR? If yes, I'll offer some cultural observations.

Yes I am, but I’ve lived in the US for a while now. I’ve met quite a few culture snobs from the old country, but I think their culture knowledge base is a bit outdated and will be perceived as obscure by many US intellectuals. Or maybe they simply lack American cultural knowledge?

If you were a teen in USSR in 1970-80s, we grew up in a very peculiar time - the things we enjoyed in terms of "culture" were pretty much the same things our parents (and often grandparents) enjoyed. In all other times what the youth watched, read and listened to was at least annoying and usually quite scandalous to their elders, but at that time in USSR the period of stagnation (эпоха застоя) reached everywhere. Add to it the overall limitations on what was accessible due to the iron curtain and state sanctioned art, and many of us ended up (maybe subconsciously) with the idea that there is some canon, some body of culture that is universal across time and space. I see lots of people of my background looking for that stability and continuity, culturally speaking, that they had with their parents, and they want to replicate it with their children. I was wondering if part of you is searching for that too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Culture isn't something people get from New York. Culture is something New York gets from people.

In NY, it's pronounced "Kul-cha".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

Lesson 1 of American Culture: if you have to ask how to be cool, you'll never know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

Lesson 1 of American Culture: if you have to ask how to be cool, you'll never know.

^^accurate.