Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”

[Anonymous]

Billy Joel song about OP and NYC Intellectuals

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the New York Times every day, The Atlantic, and the New Yorker. You can add to that list but that would get you a long way.

This is good advice. I grew up middle class and pretty broke in the Midwest. My parents longed for a different life and we got the Sunday NYT, the Atlantic and the New Yorker at home. This was back in the heyday of magazines so we also had stacks of fashion magazines and Vanity Fair. We also watched CBS Sunday Morning before church. That all gave me a glimpse into a different world and the ability to slip into college and my first job in NYC with a little bit of camouflage.

Nowadays culture is so driven by money that I would only bother because you want your kids to know and learn, not because you want to equip them to be part of certain worlds. Those worlds are mostly gone.

I don’t think being cultured will give my kid any tangible advantage, that’s for sure.
I value being a cultured person (in a broad sense, from music to current events) in and of itself and I just hope my son will also take pride in being well-read and all around knowledgeable one day.
-OP

OP, I’m legitimately inspired that you care.

I take a lot of pride in being well-read and all-around knowledgeable, but I’ll be the first to say that it’s an increasingly lonely or even scoffed-at effort. My child’s fancy private school is overrun by real estate investors and developers, tech execs, and other new millennium white collar jobs. I go to book clubs in the neighborhood and only 2-3 of us ever read the books. The parent pushback about teaching the basics of literature, arts and even history is constant. I grew up in an era and place when white collar=doctor and lawyer, and parents read books and multiple newspapers daily, and could help us with history and English homework. Now anyone who even has time to read a book is seen as antisocial or an underemployed slacker.

It makes me sad for where we’re at now.

Thank you so much for your kind words, PP!
How is it possible to be in a book club and not read the books? I mean, isn’t the whole point to discuss them?
Also, why do parents push back on literature and arts? I thought the whole point of being at a private school was to get some tried and true basics of humanities (since in public many things are too “progressive”, at least in the blue states).
I don’t know if you are open to it, but if you could find some emigres from the former USSR around you - many of them are quite cultured, though of course skewed towards certain things.
I generally share your sense of loneliness - I think with age I started to care about too many things in the world around me, and it’s hard to find people who not only know what I am talking about, but also don’t have extreme opinions or are at least capable of accepting the fact that someone has a different one.
With books and movies and shows it’s mostly that people don’t watch or read much, but with current events it’s mostly opinions.
-OP

OP, are you from the former USSR? If yes, I'll offer some cultural observations.

Yes I am, but I’ve lived in the US for a while now. I’ve met quite a few culture snobs from the old country, but I think their culture knowledge base is a bit outdated and will be perceived as obscure by many US intellectuals. Or maybe they simply lack American cultural knowledge?

If you were a teen in USSR in 1970-80s, we grew up in a very peculiar time - the things we enjoyed in terms of "culture" were pretty much the same things our parents (and often grandparents) enjoyed. In all other times what the youth watched, read and listened to was at least annoying and usually quite scandalous to their elders, but at that time in USSR the period of stagnation (эпоха застоя) reached everywhere. Add to it the overall limitations on what was accessible due to the iron curtain and state sanctioned art, and many of us ended up (maybe subconsciously) with the idea that there is some canon, some body of culture that is universal across time and space. I see lots of people of my background looking for that stability and continuity, culturally speaking, that they had with their parents, and they want to replicate it with their children. I was wondering if part of you is searching for that too.

Yes, a lot of it hits close to home.
I’ve accepted that my son will never watch/read (let alone like) most of the stuff I enjoyed as a child or teen. He will also read and watch some things that are new to me and not all of them are low brow or mass culture or whatever.
However I still think there is a canon. Even in the Soviet days it was much broader than just the Soviet art, of course. I doubt young people of today will cover all of it, or even most of it, but it would be good if they at least dipped into it a little. And then they have all the contemporary art and literature and cinema and wine and culinary arts to explore so it’s a lot.
If I could have my son learn one thing in the realm of culture - it would be good taste, the ability to detect high quality art in whichever form. I know it’s not possible without seeing a bunch of good art, the trained eye. So that’s what I hope to accomplish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

Lesson 1 of American Culture: if you have to ask how to be cool, you'll never know.

This is only true wrt all the cringy stuff like HS popularity and coolness.
This is the opposite of culture and intellectualism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the New York Times every day, The Atlantic, and the New Yorker. You can add to that list but that would get you a long way.

This is good advice. I grew up middle class and pretty broke in the Midwest. My parents longed for a different life and we got the Sunday NYT, the Atlantic and the New Yorker at home. This was back in the heyday of magazines so we also had stacks of fashion magazines and Vanity Fair. We also watched CBS Sunday Morning before church. That all gave me a glimpse into a different world and the ability to slip into college and my first job in NYC with a little bit of camouflage.

Nowadays culture is so driven by money that I would only bother because you want your kids to know and learn, not because you want to equip them to be part of certain worlds. Those worlds are mostly gone.

I don’t think being cultured will give my kid any tangible advantage, that’s for sure.
I value being a cultured person (in a broad sense, from music to current events) in and of itself and I just hope my son will also take pride in being well-read and all around knowledgeable one day.
-OP

OP, I’m legitimately inspired that you care.

I take a lot of pride in being well-read and all-around knowledgeable, but I’ll be the first to say that it’s an increasingly lonely or even scoffed-at effort. My child’s fancy private school is overrun by real estate investors and developers, tech execs, and other new millennium white collar jobs. I go to book clubs in the neighborhood and only 2-3 of us ever read the books. The parent pushback about teaching the basics of literature, arts and even history is constant. I grew up in an era and place when white collar=doctor and lawyer, and parents read books and multiple newspapers daily, and could help us with history and English homework. Now anyone who even has time to read a book is seen as antisocial or an underemployed slacker.

It makes me sad for where we’re at now.

Thank you so much for your kind words, PP!
How is it possible to be in a book club and not read the books? I mean, isn’t the whole point to discuss them?
Also, why do parents push back on literature and arts? I thought the whole point of being at a private school was to get some tried and true basics of humanities (since in public many things are too “progressive”, at least in the blue states).
I don’t know if you are open to it, but if you could find some emigres from the former USSR around you - many of them are quite cultured, though of course skewed towards certain things.
I generally share your sense of loneliness - I think with age I started to care about too many things in the world around me, and it’s hard to find people who not only know what I am talking about, but also don’t have extreme opinions or are at least capable of accepting the fact that someone has a different one.
With books and movies and shows it’s mostly that people don’t watch or read much, but with current events it’s mostly opinions.
-OP

OP, are you from the former USSR? If yes, I'll offer some cultural observations.

Yes I am, but I’ve lived in the US for a while now. I’ve met quite a few culture snobs from the old country, but I think their culture knowledge base is a bit outdated and will be perceived as obscure by many US intellectuals. Or maybe they simply lack American cultural knowledge?

If you were a teen in USSR in 1970-80s, we grew up in a very peculiar time - the things we enjoyed in terms of "culture" were pretty much the same things our parents (and often grandparents) enjoyed. In all other times what the youth watched, read and listened to was at least annoying and usually quite scandalous to their elders, but at that time in USSR the period of stagnation (эпоха застоя) reached everywhere. Add to it the overall limitations on what was accessible due to the iron curtain and state sanctioned art, and many of us ended up (maybe subconsciously) with the idea that there is some canon, some body of culture that is universal across time and space. I see lots of people of my background looking for that stability and continuity, culturally speaking, that they had with their parents, and they want to replicate it with their children. I was wondering if part of you is searching for that too.

Thank you to whoever posted this! This is thought-provoking. I’m the PP who posted about New Yorker arts reviews and I am definitely subconsciously searching for a thread that ties everything together after not being able to make sense of the fragmented nature of modern culture and the feeling that the rules of my childhood no longer apply. I definitely force my personal literary canon on my child- it’s what were deemed classics by my 50s and 60s-educated teachers who taught in the 70s and 80s. I married into a family from a former British colony and discovered a totally different canon of “acceptable” culture, which means my DD and I are happily drowning in books and will never catch up on music or film.

I cannot wait to research more about the period of stagnation in USSR. I grew up in a college town and there were always a few Soviet refugee families at my school. The kids would arrive mid year wearing the kind of outfits that don’t exist with globalization and then they would smoke us all in orchestra and art class. They might not have had access to breadth but they had so much depth in those areas that they seemed much more sophisticated than we were!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

Lesson 1 of American Culture: if you have to ask how to be cool, you'll never know.

This is only true wrt all the cringy stuff like HS popularity and coolness.
This is the opposite of culture and intellectualism

Nope. The cool people are the ones creating culture and doing interesting things, not the people trying to figure out what's popular so they can look "cultured".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?

Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!

National Gallery of Art has everything from Monet to Renoir to modern art. Check it out!

Being well read - your kid can read the classics over the summer but don't force too much on them at once. You can start reading them yourself now.

Watching the news and read online free classes for art and music. You can also watch free musical online ie: Hamilton also can be seen on I think Disney chanel? I have seen it in person multiple times as well but I really loved the version filmed live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?

Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!

National Gallery of Art has everything from Monet to Renoir to modern art. Check it out!

Being well read - your kid can read the classics over the summer but don't force too much on them at once. You can start reading them yourself now.

Watching the news and read online free classes for art and music. You can also watch free musical online ie: Hamilton also can be seen on I think Disney chanel? I have seen it in person multiple times as well but I really loved the version filmed live.

We watch a lot of social media.

[Anonymous]

OP here, seems like some trolls have caught up with the thread, so once again I thank everyone who commented in good faith, I am already starting to implement some small things, and I’ve surely learned a lot!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, seems like some trolls have caught up with the thread, so once again I thank everyone who commented in good faith, I am already starting to implement some small things, and I’ve surely learned a lot!

Thanks for starting this clown thread OP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

Lesson 1 of American Culture: if you have to ask how to be cool, you'll never know.

This is only true wrt all the cringy stuff like HS popularity and coolness.
This is the opposite of culture and intellectualism

Nope. The cool people are the ones creating culture and doing interesting things, not the people trying to figure out what's popular so they can look "cultured".

+1000

If you are Satchmo, you don't concern yourself with looking cultured -- you are creating culture. Same with Hemingway. Same with Georgia O'Keefe. Same with Steve McQueen. Same with Isadora Duncan.

[Anonymous]

I lived in NYC in the 80’s and early 90’s. One thing that was wonderful about living in New York was the amazing diversity. I got to talk about writing with writers, and about art with artists, and about music with musicians, and about architecture with architects — on top of having a foundation of talking about all kinds of things with people with intense academic interests.

I think the basis for leading a cultured and intellectual life is curiosity and interest, coupled with exposure. Take art courses and music courses and learn a second language. Write! You — or your kid — might never be adept at any of those things ( or you/they might!) but the process of trying and learning will mold your brain and your tastes and your interests in ways that will connect you with other people who share those interests.

[Anonymous]

NP. Podcasts! Find podcasts about literature and history and, if you have time, read the books the narrators talk about.

By one definition, culture is being able to talk about a lot of different issues with a lot of different people. It's not necessarily about being able to talk about Oprah's latest book choice, although I do read some of them because I'm interested.

I like this one on history: The Rest is History Club. They do a lot about Britain, but also about the US. So, recently they did the fall of Saigon, the rise of Reagan, and the American Revolution. At the same time you'll learn about Napoleon (this week), India, and Dan Brown's books (spoiler alert: the episode on the Cathars from a year or two ago shows Brown to be hilariously the victim of a French hotel owner's fraud). They're about to launch into 8 weeks on the Spanish conquest of Mexico, and they've already said it won't be friendly to Spain. But I suppose this could be criticized as white men doing mostly European history.

I also like the podcast called Empire. They talk about the East India Company brutalizing India, the history of slavery, and more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is interesting but I keep thinking it only talks about Western world art and music. Can art and music from Asia or South America be part of this discussion?

I love classical music and art and I try to expose my son between soccer practices and all the sports/ school/ play dates but it’s hard.

It’s hard enough to make sure my son and I are well versed in the Western arts world, so I am not looking as broadly just yet
-OP

OP, everything you post suggests that you’re looking for a social and leg up for your kid. That’s fine. There’s no need to say claim interested in “culture” for its own sake.

It’s not true. Where we live culture per se isn’t highly valued. You can be a software engineer or work in finance and know nothing about culture and you will be respected more than a teacher who knows art and literature
-OP

That’s an odd red herring. You’ve asked whether a software engineer can be cultured. So it seems you want both professional and social success for your DC. In any case, your kid may live elsewhere as an adult.

It’s unclear why you’re disguising your motives.

It’s unclear why you don’t trust me when I tell you my motives. I want my son to be a better person. Someone said you had to have a low paying job to be cultured, so I said I had no idea and thought it could be a side dish so to speak.
But it’s ok, you are free to think what you want about me or my motives

Lesson 1 of American Culture: if you have to ask how to be cool, you'll never know.

This is only true wrt all the cringy stuff like HS popularity and coolness.
This is the opposite of culture and intellectualism

Nope. The cool people are the ones creating culture and doing interesting things, not the people trying to figure out what's popular so they can look "cultured".

Meh. The cool people largely comment on existing art—podcasts etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.

It is taught in certain schools. I dated a guy from a wealthy family from the NE. He went to private and then boarding schools in the NE. He just knew so many things I had never heard of. He grew up in Manhattan and went to all sorts of cultured events like the ballet, symphonies. His parents were very wealthy and enjoyed the arts. His father was a history buff so he and his dad would read the same bios and autobios and discuss them. He and his mom were interested in landscape gardening and traveling. They sound like they would be snobs but they weren't. Instead of pop culture, they had other interests. They were definitely from old family money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.

It is taught in certain schools. I dated a guy from a wealthy family from the NE. He went to private and then boarding schools in the NE. He just knew so many things I had never heard of. He grew up in Manhattan and went to all sorts of cultured events like the ballet, symphonies. His parents were very wealthy and enjoyed the arts. His father was a history buff so he and his dad would read the same bios and autobios and discuss them. He and his mom were interested in landscape gardening and traveling. They sound like they would be snobs but they weren't. Instead of pop culture, they had other interests. They were definitely from old family money.

This. When you grow up in certain environs everything contributes to your overall good taste and level of culture. It is bred, it is handed down, it is curated, people are discerning in what they consume.