Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I once went to a fancy party in the Hamptons and people there were very “cultured”. The main reason was their professions. There was a journalist who had just returned from a 6 month assignment in Mongolia. There was a professor from Columbia university. There was an art collector from some fancy art house. Etc… these people all had really cool and interesting jobs.

It sounds like they were all very rich as well, or from wealthy backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?

Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!

I don’t think that NYC intellectuals are really a thing anymore. We (doctor and journalist) live in NYC, and nowadays money rules - not culture.

What a silly thing to say. OP never said being cultured "rules."

We have many friends who are professors and print journalists in NYC, and we are all just grinding it out. When we get together it’s not like a salon - we just complain about the MTA and rent and stress about (public) middle school and high school admissions.

We of course go to museums and plays, etc, but in my experience there isn’t a vibrant intellectual class n Manhattan or Brooklyn anymore. When I was little they were more apparent, but the quirky intellectuals/ artists been priced out (unless there’s family money).

With the rise in COL since the mid/late 90s or so, the monied class is just far more visible/influential.

Our friends and colleagues do read the New Yorker and go to plays and museums (the Cloisters on a beautiful spring day is transcendental!).

But mostly we have our nose to the grindstone trying to keep up with COL.

And our kids are just like their suburban cousins. The main differences are they seen a lot more broadway shows (they loved Aladdin and thought Hamilton was boring), have been dragged (whining) through a lot more museums, and are not as good at sports.

Thank you so much, this is a very very enlightening post!
Basically culture is for the rich now. As my dad would say, it’s the damned capitalism! lol
I also see that it’s important to live in a big city (not imperative but a huge factor) and that most kids and teens whine when being dragged through museums - not just mine!
One of the issues that I have is that I am so, so tired of the whining But maybe it’s time to be back to dragging DS to cultural establishments lol
-OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's been a fairly significant intellectual shift in American culture that steers away from the idea of "high" art towards a consumer culture. Some parts of that are good as intellectual cultural stuff can get ridiculous. Some parts are bad because populist stuff can just be kitsch, or worse, propaganda that Americans have lost the critical thinking skills to recognize.

One thing that strikes me a lot when I think about this is my grandmother and her wall of Harvard classics, her modern art prints on the wall of her tiny home in central California. In her day there was the sense that culture and art were for the Everyman and were, as you're suggesting "improving." While I think there's a lot of art that was made in the 20th with that rubric that's not good art, the concept itself is one that's important. Art is improving. A society needs common touchstones, common emotional experiences, common metaphors, etc. Without that I worry we're going to turn into a nation of people with long guns in Walmart.

Yes, I very much agree about the consumer culture. And that’s where common touchstones as you called them now come from, and it’s fine. My personal quest is watching key American movies and shows to become familiar with references.
As for “real” or “high” art, I have a feeling it’s always been pretty niche in the US, partly because the pop culture was always readily available.
I think my essential question is: can a parent who is more or less the only cultural beacon around the child (that’s how I feel though I know I am being dramatic here) make their child an intellectual? Does this child even have a chance. Or will the pop culture combined with relative difficulty of consumption of the “real” art do its job?
-OP

OP, I’ve read surveys that say just the fact that books are lying around the house will help a kid. I know that is a far cry from reading, but if you read, kid will observe and you can discuss what you read. Is 13-year-old enrolled in foreign language classes? That is where I really began to learn European culture and history, which was then a springboard into American arts. The only art history class I ever took was during my junior year abroad, yet it opened my eyes to art. Can you perhaps host a foreign exchange student?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?

Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!

I don’t think that NYC intellectuals are really a thing anymore. We (doctor and journalist) live in NYC, and nowadays money rules - not culture.

What a silly thing to say. OP never said being cultured "rules."

We have many friends who are professors and print journalists in NYC, and we are all just grinding it out. When we get together it’s not like a salon - we just complain about the MTA and rent and stress about (public) middle school and high school admissions.

We of course go to museums and plays, etc, but in my experience there isn’t a vibrant intellectual class n Manhattan or Brooklyn anymore. When I was little they were more apparent, but the quirky intellectuals/ artists been priced out (unless there’s family money).

With the rise in COL since the mid/late 90s or so, the monied class is just far more visible/influential.

Our friends and colleagues do read the New Yorker and go to plays and museums (the Cloisters on a beautiful spring day is transcendental!).

But mostly we have our nose to the grindstone trying to keep up with COL.

And our kids are just like their suburban cousins. The main differences are they seen a lot more broadway shows (they loved Aladdin and thought Hamilton was boring), have been dragged (whining) through a lot more museums, and are not as good at sports.

Thank you so much, this is a very very enlightening post!
Basically culture is for the rich now. As my dad would say, it’s the damned capitalism! lol
I also see that it’s important to live in a big city (not imperative but a huge factor) and that most kids and teens whine when being dragged through museums - not just mine!
One of the issues that I have is that I am so, so tired of the whining But maybe it’s time to be back to dragging DS to cultural establishments lol
-OP

DP. None of this is true. But it sounds like maybe your kids don’t care about being cultured as much as you seem to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The hallowed arbiters of culture in NYC are making concerted efforts to make their programming more accessible and inclusive for everyone. It’s not some rarified concept only available to the wealthy anymore. The culture has and is continuing to shift.

And what’s wrong with modern art?

I know I am a snob but I think making culture/art more accessible is like teaching to weakest student - it dilutes the content. I am not talking about making the tickets cheaper of course.
It would be better to teach “the common people” some art concepts early on, combine it with tons of exposure etc. However it’s probably not realistic.
Nothing wrong with modern art.
It might just be difficult to understand without some background, and it’s easier to offer mediocre stuff in the form of modern art (harder to tell good from meh, at least for me)
-OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?

Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!

I don’t think that NYC intellectuals are really a thing anymore. We (doctor and journalist) live in NYC, and nowadays money rules - not culture.

What a silly thing to say. OP never said being cultured "rules."

We have many friends who are professors and print journalists in NYC, and we are all just grinding it out. When we get together it’s not like a salon - we just complain about the MTA and rent and stress about (public) middle school and high school admissions.

We of course go to museums and plays, etc, but in my experience there isn’t a vibrant intellectual class n Manhattan or Brooklyn anymore. When I was little they were more apparent, but the quirky intellectuals/ artists been priced out (unless there’s family money).

With the rise in COL since the mid/late 90s or so, the monied class is just far more visible/influential.

Our friends and colleagues do read the New Yorker and go to plays and museums (the Cloisters on a beautiful spring day is transcendental!).

But mostly we have our nose to the grindstone trying to keep up with COL.

And our kids are just like their suburban cousins. The main differences are they seen a lot more broadway shows (they loved Aladdin and thought Hamilton was boring), have been dragged (whining) through a lot more museums, and are not as good at sports.

Thank you so much, this is a very very enlightening post!
Basically culture is for the rich now. As my dad would say, it’s the damned capitalism! lol
I also see that it’s important to live in a big city (not imperative but a huge factor) and that most kids and teens whine when being dragged through museums - not just mine!
One of the issues that I have is that I am so, so tired of the whining But maybe it’s time to be back to dragging DS to cultural establishments lol
-OP

DP. None of this is true. But it sounds like maybe your kids don’t care about being cultured as much as you seem to.

This may be true as well. That’s what I am trying to understand. -OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The hallowed arbiters of culture in NYC are making concerted efforts to make their programming more accessible and inclusive for everyone. It’s not some rarified concept only available to the wealthy anymore. The culture has and is continuing to shift.

And what’s wrong with modern art?

I know I am a snob but I think making culture/art more accessible is like teaching to weakest student - it dilutes the content. I am not talking about making the tickets cheaper of course.
It would be better to teach “the common people” some art concepts early on, combine it with tons of exposure etc. However it’s probably not realistic.
Nothing wrong with modern art.
It might just be difficult to understand without some background, and it’s easier to offer mediocre stuff in the form of modern art (harder to tell good from meh, at least for me)
-OP

If Woody Allen and Wait, Wait Don’t Tell Me were the main examples in your OP, I don’t you’re as much of a snob as you might think. You’re missing the mark and way overthinking.

[Anonymous]

I think the NYC cultural scene is overrated and I have no idea why you are fetishizing it... but anywho... once I went to a house party in NYC where there was a classical musician playing - so I guess you could do something like that. The person IIRC was a Juilliard student at the time, I think.

My own kids play percussion and saxophone - but I suppose piano and strings is what these "cultural" people would start with.

I don't think anyone can make their kid interested in what you consider high NY culture - the kid is either interested or they are not.

Travel a lot.

Read a lot - read out loud to the kid.

Like a PP above - I can also hold my own - I read a lot, like to travel. To the earlier question - how did the get those jobs? I assume they went to college, studied hard, and that's what they were interested in and worked to make it happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.

Yes! A kid might think something is very cool and want to know more but you won't cultivate fascination and understanding if they find it all "boring".

Can you get the BBC and masterpiece theater added to your tv package? We feel a bit cultured watching historical series like “world on fire” about the outbreak of ww two, and watching foreign films etc.

OP here. This is my worry. I know tons of examples when either only one parent is cultured and the kid takes after the other one, or when the environment is just not conducive.
I think my question is - is it even possible (with two divorced more cultured than average parents, and living in an educated but imho uncultured area) to grow up an intellectual?

How cultured are YoU?
What are you doing at home?
Do you have a family book club/reading list?

I won’t lie, I have a long way to go to become truly cultured
I do what I can at home.
My worry is that I am only one person. He does get some exposure at his dad’s too (we are divorced) but his dad will never as much as even strongly suggest he reads or watches something worthwhile, and I am honestly running out of energy.
DS is a pretty typical 13 yo, luckily he loves to read but his reading choices aren’t exactly intellectual for the most part.
And of course I don’t have American intellectuals flocking to my home on weekends lol
I’d say I am pretty well rounded but it’s hard to be the only person cultivating it in a child!

[Anonymous]

You can become sufficiently middlebrow and attain a “cultured” veneer by visiting museums, the opera, the ballet, READING BOOKS from a young age, learning an instrument, and subscribing to intellectual journals like the NY review of books, the Economist, the Atlantic etc.

However to be a true intellectual you have to be a producer of culture not just a consumer of it.

[Anonymous]

Being an NPR listener is not the same thing as being an intellectual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.

+1

Culture is bred into you - you can not artificially create it.

[Anonymous]

Many many of the NY intellectuals did not originate in NY. They came to NY to succeed because they were smart and ambitious. Susan Sontag grew up in the Arizona desert; Harold Ross (founder of the New Yorker) was from the Midwest; most of the artists produced & published in NYC and writers live or are from elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Geez, I am a PP and some people are being weirdly hostile about this benign question. And I actually am a New Yorker, so theoretically I should be the nastiest person on this thread!

I think it’s an interesting question.
Especially because (in my opinion) “culture” is not a monolith and is ever evolving. It’s particularly interesting to me because there have been tectonic shifts in the culture of my profession (medicine) in the last 25 years or so, which has been fascinating (and sometimes distressing) to observe.

I have often wondered how some cultural touchstones endured, while others fell out of favor over time. For instance, the idea of a “NY intellectual” persists from the 70’s and 80’s. I think is no longer culturally relevant or influential (at least in my circles in NYC), but clearly lots of people disagree. Or just find me totally uncultured!

But I do wonder what from the current time will be considered “culture” 100 years from now (assuming some catastrophic event doesn’t end society as we know it). Because if we can’t even agree on a definition, then how do we seek it out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.

+1

Culture is bred into you - you can not artificially create it.

You’re quoting me and that’s decidedly NOT what I meant. I’m cultured despite growing up in an uncultured household because of my personal interests. In contrast people who were “bred” to be cultured (ew) don’t necessarily take it up.