Antisemitic incident at Blair

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrible. There was a recent incident at Loiderman middle school where an antisemitic symbol was found drawn in a folder in the art room. From my understanding they do not know who drew it. The principal sent a message home. We need to do better as a society. It was a teachable moment for my middle and elementary school kids to recognize symbols of hate and to know why they are harmful

We don't need teachable moments. We need strong consequences. If parents and schools did not teach them by MS that this isn't ok, then they don't belong in the schools. Not surprising this happened at LMS.

Totally agree but MCPS has made a long standing commitment to not having consequences. That is why so much destructive behavior and actions happen. That definitely won't change under McKnight.

If it’s targeted against those she deems worthy she will go after them. She doesn’t care about Al groups, just select ones. The anti racist stuff does not include all groups.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree the fact incident is concerning and the involved students should be disciplined.

But I also think it's possible-to-likely that the incident was kids being stupid and ignorant, but not actually anti-Semitic. My experience with other people in this area makes me think it's unlikely that a group of students at Blair are starting some kind of Nazi club. The way the incident is described makes me think there's some likelihood they didn't realize that what they were doing looked like a Nazi salute to others. They were scene doing it together while posing for a picture. Does anyone actually think a group of students at Blair were like "let's take a picture of ourselves doing a Nazi salute in theiddle of the day in campus!"?

This is different from the incidents of anti-Semitic graffiti at other MoCo schools, acts committed at night and which are clearly intended as hate speech. It's not hard to imagine an angry, wrong headed individual doing that, while obviously making an effort not to get caught

What are the odds this was a group of kids doing a dance move or attempting a "cool" pose for a photo, and just didn't realize it looked like they were heiling Hitler?

Blair parent here and I agree. A Hitler salute could easily be a dance move or a regular salute. Given the reaction though I wonder if it was more than that? Eg directed at Jewish students, knowingly a Hitler salute or accompanied by Nazi or antisemitic language?

You realize you’re minimizing antisemitism, right? Would you do that if the kids were doing something anti-Asian or anti-Black?

No if it was clearly anti Asian or anti black. You realize Hitler targeted other races too don’t you? A Hitler salute is offensive to blacks, gays, Gypsys, the disabled and many others targeted by Hitler. Many members of my family were interred and some died in Nazi concentration camps, and more were executed by the Nazis.

Again, I think there’s more to this story than we know - there must be evidence that it was more than just a raised right hand that could be easily misinterpreted.

I have family members who were killed by the Nazis too. My dad’s entire side of the family is in this country because of pogroms by the Soviets against Ukrainian Jews in Odessa.

So don’t lecture me about antisemitism.

1) I’m not lecturing you, responding to you lecturing me.
2) I’m not Jewish, neither were any of my (close) family members who were murdered (some by firing squad) by the Nazis for their efforts to protect Jewish people during the war, or who were sent to concentration camps because of who they were. This was not that long ago - some of the survivors only died in the past couple of years - I personally heard their stories and I personally saw the life long impact, that was both emotional and physical.

No one is saying the Nazis only targeted Jews.

And the fact that you feel you need to tell me it wasn’t that long ago is highly offensive. Trust me — I know.

I’m talking about MY experience talking to MY aunts and uncles and witnessing their trauma and loss and even life long physical disability due to the Nazis. How that is highly offensive I don’t know, but you need to get a grip.

You didn’t need to say “this wasn’t that long ago” to a Jewish person. Have some sensitivity.

FFS.

It’s like explaining the basics of racism to a black person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, I'm curious what people feel would be appropriate punishment for this, and whether it matters to them if there is any context we might not yet understand.

OMG. What did I just read?! In no context is a Nazi salute OK.

What if they weren't doing a Nazi salute. What if they were recreating a dance move and got the angle of their arms wrong. They didn't say "heil Hitler). They held their arms up.

And what if someone said the n-word but they were just reciting lyrics? Or they said gay but they meant happy?

Or do you just try to rationalize it when it’s antisemitism.

A better comparison is what if someone was accused of saying the n-word but it turned out they were saying another word that got misheard.

Gay isn't a slur and actually it does mean happy. So if a kid was called homophobic for simply saying the word "gay," id for sure want more context before deciding it was a homophobic act.

At least in the US, nobody has used it to mean happy for at least 50 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, I'm curious what people feel would be appropriate punishment for this, and whether it matters to them if there is any context we might not yet understand.

OMG. What did I just read?! In no context is a Nazi salute OK.

What if they weren't doing a Nazi salute. What if they were recreating a dance move and got the angle of their arms wrong. They didn't say "heil Hitler). They held their arms up.

And what if someone said the n-word but they were just reciting lyrics? Or they said gay but they meant happy?

Or do you just try to rationalize it when it’s antisemitism.

A better comparison is what if someone was accused of saying the n-word but it turned out they were saying another word that got misheard.

Gay isn't a slur and actually it does mean happy. So if a kid was called homophobic for simply saying the word "gay," id for sure want more context before deciding it was a homophobic act.

At least in the US, nobody has used it to mean happy for at least 50 years.

Actually, they have. And again, not a slur -- it's okay to say gay, unless you're Ron Desantis. Context matters in these situations, which is why some of us feel that it's important to get more context in this particular situation before jumping to conclusions about exactly what happened. I've never met a Blair student who I would believe would intentionally do a Nazi salute, unless they were playing a Nazi in a school production of the Sound of Music or something. So the idea that a group of kids got together to do it is very alarming to me and I'd like more information about exactly what happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree the fact incident is concerning and the involved students should be disciplined.

But I also think it's possible-to-likely that the incident was kids being stupid and ignorant, but not actually anti-Semitic. My experience with other people in this area makes me think it's unlikely that a group of students at Blair are starting some kind of Nazi club. The way the incident is described makes me think there's some likelihood they didn't realize that what they were doing looked like a Nazi salute to others. They were scene doing it together while posing for a picture. Does anyone actually think a group of students at Blair were like "let's take a picture of ourselves doing a Nazi salute in theiddle of the day in campus!"?

This is different from the incidents of anti-Semitic graffiti at other MoCo schools, acts committed at night and which are clearly intended as hate speech. It's not hard to imagine an angry, wrong headed individual doing that, while obviously making an effort not to get caught

What are the odds this was a group of kids doing a dance move or attempting a "cool" pose for a photo, and just didn't realize it looked like they were heiling Hitler?

Blair parent here and I agree. A Hitler salute could easily be a dance move or a regular salute. Given the reaction though I wonder if it was more than that? Eg directed at Jewish students, knowingly a Hitler salute or accompanied by Nazi or antisemitic language?

You realize you’re minimizing antisemitism, right? Would you do that if the kids were doing something anti-Asian or anti-Black?

No if it was clearly anti Asian or anti black. You realize Hitler targeted other races too don’t you? A Hitler salute is offensive to blacks, gays, Gypsys, the disabled and many others targeted by Hitler. Many members of my family were interred and some died in Nazi concentration camps, and more were executed by the Nazis.

Again, I think there’s more to this story than we know - there must be evidence that it was more than just a raised right hand that could be easily misinterpreted.

I have family members who were killed by the Nazis too. My dad’s entire side of the family is in this country because of pogroms by the Soviets against Ukrainian Jews in Odessa.

So don’t lecture me about antisemitism.

1) I’m not lecturing you, responding to you lecturing me.
2) I’m not Jewish, neither were any of my (close) family members who were murdered (some by firing squad) by the Nazis for their efforts to protect Jewish people during the war, or who were sent to concentration camps because of who they were. This was not that long ago - some of the survivors only died in the past couple of years - I personally heard their stories and I personally saw the life long impact, that was both emotional and physical.

No one is saying the Nazis only targeted Jews.

And the fact that you feel you need to tell me it wasn’t that long ago is highly offensive. Trust me — I know.

I’m talking about MY experience talking to MY aunts and uncles and witnessing their trauma and loss and even life long physical disability due to the Nazis. How that is highly offensive I don’t know, but you need to get a grip.

You didn’t need to say “this wasn’t that long ago” to a Jewish person. Have some sensitivity.

FFS.

It’s like explaining the basics of racism to a black person.

If people find this acceptable clearly they need educated. A persons race has nothing to do with it except some don’t think racism can exist outside their own group. That is why this is tolerated. Many don’t see it as racist or harmful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, I'm curious what people feel would be appropriate punishment for this, and whether it matters to them if there is any context we might not yet understand.

OMG. What did I just read?! In no context is a Nazi salute OK.

What if they weren't doing a Nazi salute. What if they were recreating a dance move and got the angle of their arms wrong. They didn't say "heil Hitler). They held their arms up.

And what if someone said the n-word but they were just reciting lyrics? Or they said gay but they meant happy?

Or do you just try to rationalize it when it’s antisemitism.

A better comparison is what if someone was accused of saying the n-word but it turned out they were saying another word that got misheard.

Gay isn't a slur and actually it does mean happy. So if a kid was called homophobic for simply saying the word "gay," id for sure want more context before deciding it was a homophobic act.

At least in the US, nobody has used it to mean happy for at least 50 years.

Actually, they have. And again, not a slur -- it's okay to say gay, unless you're Ron Desantis. Context matters in these situations, which is why some of us feel that it's important to get more context in this particular situation before jumping to conclusions about exactly what happened. I've never met a Blair student who I would believe would intentionally do a Nazi salute, unless they were playing a Nazi in a school production of the Sound of Music or something. So the idea that a group of kids got together to do it is very alarming to me and I'd like more information about exactly what happened.

No, they haven't. Nobody with even the slightest bit of awareness of American English language usage has said, "We had a gay time at the party on Saturday," and sincerely and unambiguously meant they had a merry/happy time at the party, in the last 50 years.

And it may not be a slur, but people sure try to use it as one.

[Anonymous]

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My kids went/go to Bethesda-area MCPS schools. There have been swastikas drawn on walls and desks over the years.

Nazi symbols are co-opted by kids who want to rebel against "the establishment". I very much doubt that they are specifically antisemitic, or anti-Israel or anti-Jew. I do not believe that this wealthy area, full of opportunities for everyone, has a population that suffers economically such that they would need to level hate against a specific group. I would like to remind you that historically, that sort of backlash happens under intense stress - Covid lockdowns for anti-Asian crimes, severe economic and social trauma in pre-WWII Germany leading to the rise of the Nazi party.

Un-prepared or rebellious adolescents who are bored and looking to find themselves and belong to a tribe will lash out against LGBT+, Jews, Muslims, any group perceived to be "other" than the tribe they aspire to belong to.

Exercises in wellness and tolerance can be a double-edged sword, because you can certainly educate the majority of kids who respect authority, but you're pushing the rebels to act out just because they've been told not to.

So in that context, a swastika isn't a "I hate Jews" sort of thing, but a "I just had yet another stupid assembly and I'm going to spray a swastika on this school wall to let everyone know I won't be brainwashed." The symbol is guaranteed to provoke everybody. If there was an easy anti-LGBT symbol, or an easy anti-Muslim symbol, they'd use them too! This is why the "gay" slur is the verbal equivalent of the sprayed swastika. The kids are looking to trigger their communities into outrage. They're little trolls.

The response has to be consistent education on tolerance. But it shouldn't lead you to clutch your pearls and panic, because otherwise you're just giving them what they want: attention.

If this was anti LGBT, this would be dealt with. Any hate against Jews, Muslims and Asians gets ignored. I don't care what the reason is. MCPS is claiming to they don't tolerate hate when they just don't tolerate it for specific groups that they are impacted by or scream the loudest.

The police were called, there is an investigation, a letter was sent to the Blair families, and now a news article. What more do you want?!?

Criminal charges for hate crimes, expulsion, suspension to start with.

What crime was committed? Vandalism?

As for school punishment, even kids who brutally beat up another kid don't get expulsion, so why should a non-violent offense garner such a severe punishment?

This is a case for RJ. No one was hurt, but the offender does need to learn a lesson.

What do you mean no one was hurt? They put fear in many students. Enough is enough.

But from what I see, the only crime committed, at most, was vandalism.

All this talk of locking them up... for what crime? "Hate crime" isn't a specific charge.

Actually it is and there is a special hate crimes unit.

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/SAO/other/hatecrimes.html

Here's a list of hate crimes:

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/SAO/other/hatecrimes.html#WhatConstitutesAHateCrime

Based on what happened at Blair, nothing would fall under that list as being illegal... because of the first amendment.

This is the answer. It’s not illegal (in MoCo) to use the n word or do a Nazi salute. MCPS may have different rules, but as far as crimes go, none were committed.

Not only in MoCo. It is not illegal anywhere in the US, thanks to the first amendment.

As it should be.

Here are the parents of the who should be expelled.

Not really. My kid goes to Blair. I think those kids are a$$holes. But doing a Nazi salute is not a crime. I would be fine if they were expelled. But involving the police is unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

Maybe the kids were Jewish and they were “taking back” the salute?

[Anonymous]

Ironic that Mercedes and BMW driving People get offended by this

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My kids went/go to Bethesda-area MCPS schools. There have been swastikas drawn on walls and desks over the years.

Nazi symbols are co-opted by kids who want to rebel against "the establishment". I very much doubt that they are specifically antisemitic, or anti-Israel or anti-Jew. I do not believe that this wealthy area, full of opportunities for everyone, has a population that suffers economically such that they would need to level hate against a specific group. I would like to remind you that historically, that sort of backlash happens under intense stress - Covid lockdowns for anti-Asian crimes, severe economic and social trauma in pre-WWII Germany leading to the rise of the Nazi party.

Un-prepared or rebellious adolescents who are bored and looking to find themselves and belong to a tribe will lash out against LGBT+, Jews, Muslims, any group perceived to be "other" than the tribe they aspire to belong to.

Exercises in wellness and tolerance can be a double-edged sword, because you can certainly educate the majority of kids who respect authority, but you're pushing the rebels to act out just because they've been told not to.

So in that context, a swastika isn't a "I hate Jews" sort of thing, but a "I just had yet another stupid assembly and I'm going to spray a swastika on this school wall to let everyone know I won't be brainwashed." The symbol is guaranteed to provoke everybody. If there was an easy anti-LGBT symbol, or an easy anti-Muslim symbol, they'd use them too! This is why the "gay" slur is the verbal equivalent of the sprayed swastika. The kids are looking to trigger their communities into outrage. They're little trolls.

The response has to be consistent education on tolerance. But it shouldn't lead you to clutch your pearls and panic, because otherwise you're just giving them what they want: attention.

If this was anti LGBT, this would be dealt with. Any hate against Jews, Muslims and Asians gets ignored. I don't care what the reason is. MCPS is claiming to they don't tolerate hate when they just don't tolerate it for specific groups that they are impacted by or scream the loudest.

The police were called, there is an investigation, a letter was sent to the Blair families, and now a news article. What more do you want?!?

Criminal charges for hate crimes, expulsion, suspension to start with.

What crime was committed? Vandalism?

As for school punishment, even kids who brutally beat up another kid don't get expulsion, so why should a non-violent offense garner such a severe punishment?

This is a case for RJ. No one was hurt, but the offender does need to learn a lesson.

What do you mean no one was hurt? They put fear in many students. Enough is enough.

But from what I see, the only crime committed, at most, was vandalism.

All this talk of locking them up... for what crime? "Hate crime" isn't a specific charge.

Actually it is and there is a special hate crimes unit.

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/SAO/other/hatecrimes.html

Here's a list of hate crimes:

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/SAO/other/hatecrimes.html#WhatConstitutesAHateCrime

Based on what happened at Blair, nothing would fall under that list as being illegal... because of the first amendment.

This is the answer. It’s not illegal (in MoCo) to use the n word or do a Nazi salute. MCPS may have different rules, but as far as crimes go, none were committed.

Not only in MoCo. It is not illegal anywhere in the US, thanks to the first amendment.

It is a targeted hate crime used to intimidate and threaten.

Not illegal. No vandalism on private or public property.

Watch -- the students involved will not be charged, because no crime was committed. They will (hopefully) face consequences in school though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, I'm curious what people feel would be appropriate punishment for this, and whether it matters to them if there is any context we might not yet understand.

OMG. What did I just read?! In no context is a Nazi salute OK.

What if they weren't doing a Nazi salute. What if they were recreating a dance move and got the angle of their arms wrong. They didn't say "heil Hitler). They held their arms up.

And what if someone said the n-word but they were just reciting lyrics? Or they said gay but they meant happy?

Or do you just try to rationalize it when it’s antisemitism.

A better comparison is what if someone was accused of saying the n-word but it turned out they were saying another word that got misheard.

Gay isn't a slur and actually it does mean happy. So if a kid was called homophobic for simply saying the word "gay," id for sure want more context before deciding it was a homophobic act.

At least in the US, nobody has used it to mean happy for at least 50 years.

Actually, they have. And again, not a slur -- it's okay to say gay, unless you're Ron Desantis. Context matters in these situations, which is why some of us feel that it's important to get more context in this particular situation before jumping to conclusions about exactly what happened. I've never met a Blair student who I would believe would intentionally do a Nazi salute, unless they were playing a Nazi in a school production of the Sound of Music or something. So the idea that a group of kids got together to do it is very alarming to me and I'd like more information about exactly what happened.

No, they haven't. Nobody with even the slightest bit of awareness of American English language usage has said, "We had a gay time at the party on Saturday," and sincerely and unambiguously meant they had a merry/happy time at the party, in the last 50 years.

And it may not be a slur, but people sure try to use it as one.

I've heard people reference things like "gay Paris" and mean the original meaning, not gay activities in Paris. Or reference the song "I Feel Pretty" which uses gay with its original meaning. Most adults know that gay used to just mean happy, even if they don't use it that way.

A lot of words (and gestures) have complex meanings. Things are not always as straightforward as we want them to be. Obviously kids using a Nazi salute is a major problem and needs to be addressed, but I am bothered by how many people on this thread are willing to accept a somewhat vague account of what happened without further inquiry, and seem to be mad that consequences haven't already been issued. There's no video or pictures. High school students are not always perfect witnesses. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying we need more information and that the context is relevant.

I didn't realize that was a controversial position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

With all the W school incidents, did any of them get suspended?