No feedback from teachers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

I’m the teacher who posted above. We receive no time during our workdays to actually provide individualized feedback. It’s expected that we spend our nights and weekends doing that.

I don’t mind working outside contract hours. I do mind that it is expected that I do it every day and every weekend.

If we want feedback to be part of a student’s school experience, as it should be, then we need to provide teachers work time to do it.

Who is we? As has been pointed out here, I'm not a teacher's boss or manager. I can't give teachers that time. It has to come from admin, and clearly it's not going to. That leaves me to hope that my child gets a teacher who will cuts corner on other duties in order to educate my child properly. And if I express dismay at this situation, I'm admonished for not being supportive of teachers. I give up. No wonder the education system is in shambles. Good luck to us all.

You’ve given no evidence that you support us. If grading and feedback are important then get the county to give us more time.

I express dismay at the situation teachers find themselves in and I’m admonished for not being supportive. Hence, I give up. Good luck.

I’m a DP. I suspect the PP was reacting to the comment that you hope for a teacher who cuts corners elsewhere in order to free time for your child.

If we do that, another parent’s child suffers.

The system is absolutely the problem. Personally, I’d love to see all the non-teaching staff back in the classroom. That would lower class sizes (and shrink grading piles), which would take the pressure off teachers. I also feel I now have to buy into a ton of initiatives simply to justify these non-teaching positions.

What would help most is teachers only having to teach 4 sections instead of 5 as a full time schedule. The other 4 blocks would be planning, grading, PLC. No duty block- hire monitors for that. No teaching a 5th section as it takes away time from the necessary things like planning and grading. But districts would have to invest in more teachers to do this and that would take away from salaries at admin building where they do … who knows what

Yes! I’d love to see admin shrink. I feel my job gets harder as more people find non-teaching positions.

I struggle to figure out what they do. The instructional coaches are constantly reaching out to us in the classroom to ask for ideas and advice and if we want to do curriculum creation work . Like —- can’t you guys do that?? We’re kinda busy!

I understand why these positions are so popular. You can stay in education without the stress of planning, grading, classroom management, observations, etc.

The problem is these positions create more work for those of us who still teach. I don’t see their overall value in relation to student performance and student growth.

Shrink these opportunities and get teachers back in the classroom sharing our load. That way we can all teach 4 classes instead of 5, and we’d have more time to actually help students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MS English teacher here. It infuriates me to read about the HS teacher not providing feedback to students. How are they supposed to improve? I chunk my students’ writing assignments and provide feedback at each step. Yes, it takes time, but helping students become better writers is a big part of my job - and I knew it would be when I chose this role. Over the years, I have figured out different systems to streamline my workflow; it is still time consuming, but it’s important. The “students who want feedback can seek me out” excuse is lazy at best and discriminatory at worst. Shame on you, PP.

Oh nonsense. The kind of feedback OP wants, yes , that warrants a conference. I am an English teacher too so when you mention you’ve stream lined your workflow I know what you mean: you’re only choosing certain skills to feedback on . If OP and her son or any kid want personalized in depth feedback, you and I both know it’s better for them to come talk to us so we can provide that than it is for us to spend 20 minutes on *every single paper* providing it when 99% of the kids don’t read it.

[b]I truly don’t understand how parents in this forum expect their kids to be college ready. How will your freshman college student navigate professor officer hours if they apparently can’t and won’t even take 10 minutes out of their study hall block to go get feedback with their teacher in a writing conference?

THIS IS UTTER NONSENSE.
A 15 year old is not a mini college student. If teachers aren't teaching kids to do this then they will not be college ready at 18 or 19. Don't give me this crap about being college ready as a 9th or 10th grader. That is lazy and ridiculous.

What?? 15 year olds can DRIVE! They have jobs! And you think they can’t go talk to their teacher about an assignment during study hall?? I’m baffled. I really am.

What are you baffled by? Yes 15 year olds can have jobs. But to expect a 15 year old student to act the same as a 19 year old student is utterly ridiculous.

Nobody said they had to act like a 19 year old. We said if they can’t talk to their teacher during study hall about an assignment at age 15, how do you expect them to navigate office hours alone at age 18 when they go to college. The first scenario is a routine part of high school- if parents now think kids can’t manage that , I truly don’t know how they think their kids can handle going to office hours for a professor they barely even know when they are in college in 3 more years.

College professor here. I take a lot of issue with the idea that students should have to come to office hours to get ANY feedback on their work. That is wholly unacceptable. Some of the highest achieving students are also the most anxious. They aren’t just going to “get over it” and suddenly become a squeaky wheel. Office hours are for students who want more than the standard amount of feedback that can be expected for assignments. Timely feedback is critical to learning and you are failing your students if your aren’t doing that.

College students fill out anonymous evaluations of their professors at the end of the semester. One of the questions asks about feedback. We would be eviscerated if we didn’t give any feedback on papers. And some profs teach hundreds of students in multiple sections with little to no grading help. They aren’t getting long breaks during the day to grade; they’re teaching or in meetings or commuting. They are just working around the clock for similar pay as HS teachers in order to do right by their students.

I am required to give my students 2 grades a week. I have 177 students. I'm not sure your math is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good luck indeed. It’s a mess and beyond fixing. I’m a teacher and a parent and sometimes I think wow, I can’t believe my own kids are soon going to be learning in the kind of high school environment I work in. Being mad at teachers for not having time to give personalized feedback is pointless- the system is working against all of us. I could be an incredible teacher if the system wasn’t working against me and these students at every junction. The kids could be learning more too if it weren’t for the ridiculous policies districts adopt to curate the data set they want to see.

Could not have said this better.
Teacher and parent in FCPS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

10000% yes, in math. A little bit every day is 100x better than a lot every other day.

We went to block many years ago not for academics but for behavior. Most fights and drug deals happened during passing periods, so limiting hallway time limited opportunities for incidents. There is no research showing it improves academics, however.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

"Direct instruction" does not need to be a 90 minute lecture. It could be an assignment that allows the students to work independently or in groups while the teacher roams from student to student or group to group to evaluate and monitor.

As for elementary school, the old time "traditional" system of opening with instruction to the whole group and discussion of subject and then assignment of independent work while the teacher pulls small groups worked pretty well.

When I was in high school, I had a wonderful history teacher who spent a lot of time lecturing. But, she guided us through the process--to include teaching us how to take notes. She began by using the "overhead" with a very detailed outline of her notes. As the year went on, her notes on the overhead became briefer--until, by the end of the year, we were expected to take our notes from her lectures in outline form--without the help of the overhead. So, when we went to college, we knew how to take notes in a lecture.
Basically, not only did she teach us history, she taught us how to take notes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

10000% yes, in math. A little bit every day is 100x better than a lot every other day.

We went to block many years ago not for academics but for behavior. Most fights and drug deals happened during passing periods, so limiting hallway time limited opportunities for incidents. There is no research showing it improves academics, however.

They used to do blocks for everything except math. Everyone would have math every day for 45 min. But the other classes were block classes. They should go back to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

10000% yes, in math. A little bit every day is 100x better than a lot every other day.

We went to block many years ago not for academics but for behavior. Most fights and drug deals happened during passing periods, so limiting hallway time limited opportunities for incidents. There is no research showing it improves academics, however.

They used to do blocks for everything except math. Everyone would have math every day for 45 min. But the other classes were block classes. They should go back to that.

When I was in high school we had 45 min blocks and A/B days. English, Math, SS and Science would be daily. PE would be every other day. We would also have a double science block every other day in order to do labs. All electives were every other day. I personally thought it was great!

In ES we spend 60 mins on reading and 70 in Math. After a focus lesson, we pull groups when kids are reading independently and doing some comprehension work. Same with math. The problem is all this independent time leads to behavior problems when the teacher is working in small groups.

I would much rather have 45 min blocks for all subject areas and SS/Science daily. You can still do a 10-15 min focus lesson and some independent reading/small group work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

10000% yes, in math. A little bit every day is 100x better than a lot every other day.

We went to block many years ago not for academics but for behavior. Most fights and drug deals happened during passing periods, so limiting hallway time limited opportunities for incidents. There is no research showing it improves academics, however.

They used to do blocks for everything except math. Everyone would have math every day for 45 min. But the other classes were block classes. They should go back to that.

When I was in high school we had 45 min blocks and A/B days. English, Math, SS and Science would be daily. PE would be every other day. We would also have a double science block every other day in order to do labs. All electives were every other day. I personally thought it was great!

In ES we spend 60 mins on reading and 70 in Math. After a focus lesson, we pull groups when kids are reading independently and doing some comprehension work. Same with math. The problem is all this independent time leads to behavior problems when the teacher is working in small groups.

I would much rather have 45 min blocks for all subject areas and SS/Science daily. You can still do a 10-15 min focus lesson and some independent reading/small group work.

45 minutes would not be enough time for students to take tests in subjects heavier in writing such as English and social studies. It is also not enough time for a science lab. Those subjects need one hour minimum. 45 minutes would only work for math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

10000% yes, in math. A little bit every day is 100x better than a lot every other day.

We went to block many years ago not for academics but for behavior. Most fights and drug deals happened during passing periods, so limiting hallway time limited opportunities for incidents. There is no research showing it improves academics, however.

They used to do blocks for everything except math. Everyone would have math every day for 45 min. But the other classes were block classes. They should go back to that.

When I was in high school we had 45 min blocks and A/B days. English, Math, SS and Science would be daily. PE would be every other day. We would also have a double science block every other day in order to do labs. All electives were every other day. I personally thought it was great!

In ES we spend 60 mins on reading and 70 in Math. After a focus lesson, we pull groups when kids are reading independently and doing some comprehension work. Same with math. The problem is all this independent time leads to behavior problems when the teacher is working in small groups.

I would much rather have 45 min blocks for all subject areas and SS/Science daily. You can still do a 10-15 min focus lesson and some independent reading/small group work.

45 minutes would not be enough time for students to take tests in subjects heavier in writing such as English and social studies. It is also not enough time for a science lab. Those subjects need one hour minimum. 45 minutes would only work for math.

Or you just break the test across two days?

Somehow we did chem labs in 48 minute classes in high school.

PE is the only legit argument IMO. Changing takes 10 minutes on either end so class is only 25.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

I am an ES teacher and we have long blocks too and it is a mess. I am interested in your perspective? Do you think going back to daily 45 minute blocks would be better? Just curious.

10000% yes, in math. A little bit every day is 100x better than a lot every other day.

We went to block many years ago not for academics but for behavior. Most fights and drug deals happened during passing periods, so limiting hallway time limited opportunities for incidents. There is no research showing it improves academics, however.

They used to do blocks for everything except math. Everyone would have math every day for 45 min. But the other classes were block classes. They should go back to that.

When I was in high school we had 45 min blocks and A/B days. English, Math, SS and Science would be daily. PE would be every other day. We would also have a double science block every other day in order to do labs. All electives were every other day. I personally thought it was great!

In ES we spend 60 mins on reading and 70 in Math. After a focus lesson, we pull groups when kids are reading independently and doing some comprehension work. Same with math. The problem is all this independent time leads to behavior problems when the teacher is working in small groups.

I would much rather have 45 min blocks for all subject areas and SS/Science daily. You can still do a 10-15 min focus lesson and some independent reading/small group work.

45 minutes would not be enough time for students to take tests in subjects heavier in writing such as English and social studies. It is also not enough time for a science lab. Those subjects need one hour minimum. 45 minutes would only work for math.

My question is how did they do this in the past? There were no computers and kids were writing by hand. They took AP courses in 45-50 mins.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

"Direct instruction" does not need to be a 90 minute lecture. It could be an assignment that allows the students to work independently or in groups while the teacher roams from student to student or group to group to evaluate and monitor.

As for elementary school, the old time "traditional" system of opening with instruction to the whole group and discussion of subject and then assignment of independent work while the teacher pulls small groups worked pretty well.

When I was in high school, I had a wonderful history teacher who spent a lot of time lecturing. But, she guided us through the process--to include teaching us how to take notes. She began by using the "overhead" with a very detailed outline of her notes. As the year went on, her notes on the overhead became briefer--until, by the end of the year, we were expected to take our notes from her lectures in outline form--without the help of the overhead. So, when we went to college, we knew how to take notes in a lecture.
Basically, not only did she teach us history, she taught us how to take notes.

What your referring to (instead of direct instruction) is “independent (or when done with others, collaborative) work with teacher support.” It happens almost every day in every K-12 classroom.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly are teachers accountable for then, if not educating students?

We're accountable to our employer.

So it's about keeping FCPS administration happy, kids education be damned?

No, but you asked who we're accountable to, and it's our employer, same as anyone else. We complete our tasks as directed and if there is an issue with compliance, our manager will surely let us know.

You are not our manager. You also won't get me with this martyr complex.

I asked what teachers can be held accountable for, you changed it to accountable to. Which suggests teachers see the job not in terms of goals to accomplish, but people to keep happy. And it's not a martyr complex, it's introspection.

Sure, I wish I could have time to give detailed feedback on each test and essay but that isn't conducive to a healthy work/life balance. My students have gone on to do great things despite my "not caring" about them so I'm not too worried. And I see my job in terms of goals to accomplish, many of which are set by our employer, who yes, we do need to keep happy.

You're prioritizing other things. Understood.

We are prioritizing whatever our employer tells us to - and grading has never been high on the list.

Which is astonishing considering there can be no learning without direct, individualized feedback (which is what grading is). How on earth are children supposed to know what they are doing incorrectly?

Here was my lesson yesterday as a HS math teacher:

-Warm up reviewing a topic a good portion of students struggled with last unit
-15 minute lesson structured as “I do/we do/you do” where students gradually take control of problems. Each is done on the board. Feedback.
-“quiz, quiz, trade” where students have cards with a problem on one side (in this case finding the vertical and horizontal asymptotes of a rational function in transformational format) and the answer on the back. They pair up, quiz each other with their card, swap cards, and find a new partner. In 5 minutes they can practice 10 problems with feedback, plus move out of their seat which they need.
-another 15 minute lesson, this time on standard form
-white board practice, gameified. I put a problem on the board, students solved it on their mini white boards and held it up for immediate feedback. Points/teams involved to get student buy in.
-Classwork worksheet handed out. 10 problems similar to the ones they just saw in prior activities. Students had to graph rational functions with vertical and horizontal asymptotes in various forms. If graphed properly, the function crosses a letter in the graph which spells the punchline to a joke. If the graph doesn’t go through a letter, student knows they messed up. Feedback.

Before they take the test they will get a study guide with a full worked answer key and suggestions provided. We will have an entire 90 minute block devoted to review, additional practice opportunities with built in feedback, and a chance to ask individual questions. The expectation is students check their work on the study guide with my key and ask for help when needed. (Which is probably the most valuable life skill I could teach!)

So yeah, I am pretty confident my students are learning and getting feedback even though nothing I mentioned is graded.

I do grade and hand back tests (once everyone has taken it) but I can tell you that’s not the feedback kids learn from in my room. I find half the tests in the recycle bin after class.

I say all this because a good teacher is providing feedback all day, every day. Modern teaching is a constant feedback loop. It’s not direct instruction/note taking for the whole block followed by doing the odd problems from the textbook anymore.

Maybe it should be. Your lesson sounds wonderful, but requires much more planning .

I’m sorry, but this is why parents really shouldn’t have much of a say in how we teach. I read this post as a teacher and was like this is excellent- they built in direct instruction, guided individual and group practice, student talk and responsibility, constant feedback, and student engagement. It’s objectively a great lesson . Then I see you- “You should do all notes from a textbook instead.” LAUGH OUT LOUD. None of you really know what you’re talking about re: education but you feel so confident to come tell everyone how to do their jobs.

You really misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said anyone should do “all notes from a textbook instead.” I said the lesson sounds wonderful but requires more planning than a direct instruction one.

I’m sure there are teachers who still do mostly direct instruction and don’t plan as much. But I know the county encourages these alternative teaching strategies.

Direct instruction doesn't work with 15 year old brains and 90 minute class periods. The county doesn't really interfere with how I teach (so long as I get results) but there is no way I could do a 90 minute lecture. I don't know anyone who does that. I mean, if that's what worked then we would all just throw on a khan academy lesson and sit at our desks grading...but it doesn't work.

The longest I know of any of my colleagues lecturing is 30 minutes. You have to fill the other 60 minutes somehow.

"Direct instruction" does not need to be a 90 minute lecture. It could be an assignment that allows the students to work independently or in groups while the teacher roams from student to student or group to group to evaluate and monitor.

As for elementary school, the old time "traditional" system of opening with instruction to the whole group and discussion of subject and then assignment of independent work while the teacher pulls small groups worked pretty well.

When I was in high school, I had a wonderful history teacher who spent a lot of time lecturing. But, she guided us through the process--to include teaching us how to take notes. She began by using the "overhead" with a very detailed outline of her notes. As the year went on, her notes on the overhead became briefer--until, by the end of the year, we were expected to take our notes from her lectures in outline form--without the help of the overhead. So, when we went to college, we knew how to take notes in a lecture.
Basically, not only did she teach us history, she taught us how to take notes.

What you’re referring to (instead of direct instruction) is “independent (or when done with others, collaborative) work with teacher support.” It happens almost every day in every K-12 classroom.

Correct, but classes are 90 minutes now in high school so we can’t do that the entire time which for some reason people who graduated 25 years ago don’t seem to understand. You HAVE to chunk a class that long with different forms of instruction and activity. Also, “roaming the room to evaluate and monitor” while they work independently IS giving them feedback but parents think if they don’t see it written on a final paper we don’t give it at all.