Is your church against celebrating Halloween and trick or treat?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

There's no rabbits in Bede, as has been pointed out endlessly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

DP. You also seem determined to ignore all the questions that have been raised about Bede, who after all was writing 100 years after pagan Britain.

You’re just being silly, which suggests you know all this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

There's no rabbits in Bede, as has been pointed out endlessly.

+1. Nothing in Bede to indicate Eostra’s rites, if they even existed, included rabbits, eggs or even spring. That’s without going into how questionable the Bede reference is. And Bede is the ONLY source you have for suggesting an Eostra cult even existed. Otherwise, nothing, zip, nada.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

Again, this is not a contemporary account. It was written hundreds of years later. Didn't the pagans keep records? Didn't they write anything down?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

Again, this is not a contemporary account. It was written hundreds of years later. Didn't the pagans keep records? Didn't they write anything down?

DP. There are traces of evidence for the 5th century British pagan god Woden, in place names etc. And there was a god called Thunor, the evidence for which is symbols on graves.

Nothing except Bede’s questionable reference for this Oestra, though. Nothing at all about rabbits and eggs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

Again, this is not a contemporary account. It was written hundreds of years later. Didn't the pagans keep records? Didn't they write anything down?

DP. There are traces of evidence for the 5th century British pagan god Woden, in place names etc. And there was a god called Thunor, the evidence for which is symbols on graves.

Nothing except Bede’s questionable reference for this Oestra, though. Nothing at all about rabbits and eggs.

Surely the Romans would have written something down about this. The Romans documented everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

Again, this is not a contemporary account. It was written hundreds of years later. Didn't the pagans keep records? Didn't they write anything down?

DP. There are traces of evidence for the 5th century British pagan god Woden, in place names etc. And there was a god called Thunor, the evidence for which is symbols on graves.

Nothing except Bede’s questionable reference for this Oestra, though. Nothing at all about rabbits and eggs.

Surely the Romans would have written something down about this. The Romans documented everything.

Yes, true, exactly like they documented the execution of Christ and all his miracles. Oh, wait....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

Again, this is not a contemporary account. It was written hundreds of years later. Didn't the pagans keep records? Didn't they write anything down?

DP. There are traces of evidence for the 5th century British pagan god Woden, in place names etc. And there was a god called Thunor, the evidence for which is symbols on graves.

Nothing except Bede’s questionable reference for this Oestra, though. Nothing at all about rabbits and eggs.

Surely the Romans would have written something down about this. The Romans documented everything.

Yes, true, exactly like they documented the execution of Christ and all his miracles. Oh, wait....

You mean like Tacitus and Josephus? And the synoptic gospels?

[Anonymous]

This thread was a wild ride!

1. op asked what (specifically) Christians and their children are doing on halloween night, but refused to answer what they were doing with their children on halloween night.

2. When Christians answered with their plans, a troll tried to claim both Catholic and another unspecified church denomination bombarded her house in “Carly” NC with both flyers and in person attacks on Halloween. (perhaps pp meant Cary, NC? And many Catholics tried to explain their religion doesn’t do such things on Halloween and their parishes don’t have a problem with celebrating Halloween, but the former resident of Carly, NC, was adamant! Catholics used “insanities” to attack her on Halloween! IT WAS SCARIER THAN ANYTHING HALLOWEEN NIGHT COULD EVER OFFER THIS WORLD.

3. Suddenly, Pagans decided to share on dcum that Halloween is really Samhain, the most sacred of their nights, and Christians who celebrate that b#stard Halloween are appropriating hypocrites. Pagans don’t explain if they still sacrifice people and livestock and dogs on Samhain, and paint themselves in the sacrificial blood, as their sacred ancestors practiced this sacred, most high night of paganism. In fact, they don’t even say what they do on the most sacred night. (probably on dcum tbh, can’t imagine they go outside, much less sacrifice anything)

4. Now, as the gambit to expose Christians and their churches as Halloween hating, fun hating prudes and cranks has failed, the atheists have moved the topic to Easter! It’s riveting stuff. Actually the pic of the bunny statue is cute, but that’s all. More pointless attacks on Christians and atheists trying hard to “win” the “debate.”

[Anonymous]

The whole debate around Eostra is irrelevant.

Easter has been linked to Passover since year 1 of Christianity. The Last Supper was a Passover meal. The timing of Easter is related to Passover every year.

The idea that 5th century English pagans were the origins of Easter and it’s spring celebration is ahistorical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The whole debate around Eostra is irrelevant.

Easter has been linked to Passover since year 1 of Christianity. The Last Supper was a Passover meal. The timing of Easter is related to Passover every year.

The idea that 5th century English pagans were the origins of Easter and it’s spring celebration is ahistorical.

*its

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian, but I'm not concerned about this as a Christian. I have no problem with "baptizing" useful pagan customs. I have a problem with these stories, because they fail as history. There simply isn't evidence for them, and people believe them because they show up on the History Channel between showings of Ancient Aliens.

Translation: I refuse to believe the scholars, including contemporaneous writings by Bede, because it disagrees with my presuppositions, and I will say they fail as history but provide no evidence of that claim, and hope no one calls me on my bullshit.

I waited a bit to respond to this, because I needed to get to where I could lay my hands on my copy of Winters in the World Eleanor Parker's excellent recent book on the Anglo Saxon year. Parker is a specialist on medieval English and Scandinavian literature at Oxford and a scholar by anyone's definition. Here's what she says about the connection between Eostre and Easter celebration:

t's important to recognize that even if Easter does take its name from a goddess, that only tells us about the origins of the [i]name- not the origins of the festival. The Christian festival of Easter long pre-dated the Anglo-Saxon conversion, and its essential features, including the principal behind its dating, had been established for centuries. What's more, we have no evidence of any symbols, customs, or rituals that may have been associated with Eostre in Anglo-Saxon England or anything to suggest how her festival might have been celebrated. Bede mentions "feasts," in the vaguest terms, but he probably has no idea what those might have involved. Today it's popular myth that symbols linked in modern Britain with Easter, especially eggs, hares or rabbits derive from worship of Eostre, but there's no Anglo-Saxon evidence to support that. None of these symbols were linked to Easter in the Anglo-Saxon period; eggs weren't associated with Easter in Britain until the later Middles ages, hares and rabbits not until much later still. There's nothing to suggest any continuity between the pre-conversion festival and the Anglo-Saxon Christian Easter, and the modern observance of Easter owes nothing to Anglo-Saxon paganism, with the sole exception of its English name.

(Page 126)

She also relevant to your odd description of Bede as "contemporary":

Most likely Bede wasn't relying on personal knowledge but was using a written source for month-names and adding his own speculation about the meaning- and in some cases he may have just been guessing.

(Page 15)

She also notes with regard to the name that:

Some have gone so far as to suggest that Bede invented Esotre as a scholarly hypothesis to explain a name he didn't understand

(Page 125) (There's a citation here to "Anglo-Saxon Paganism: The Evidence of Bede" by an R.I. Page a Cambridge scholar who was an expert on Anglo-Saxon runes)

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm satisfied that my opinions are based on scholarship, including giving Bede his proper due.

So we agree then, that it is the origin of the name. Great! Kind of a stretch to suggest that is the only connection, don't ya think?

While her scholarship is impressive, the rest of her statements are unsupported by citation. They are just statements of her opinion. "He may have been guessing" or "He may have invented" . Which are ironic accusations!

As for the symbology, we know the rabbit wasn't biblical. Leviticus 11:6 states that the hare is an unclean animal: “The hare, for even though it chews the cud, it does not have divided hoofs; it is unclean for you”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/virginity-fertility-or-just-chocolate-the-opaque-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

It's actually quite a stretch to suggest that a connection to rabbits existed in pre-Christian times then disappeared entirely from the historical record before reappearing almost a thousand years later. It's technically possible, but there's zero evidence for it.

No one claimed the rabbit association was biblical, just that it likely arose in a Christian culture rather than being a surviving pagan element. There's simply no credible modern scholarship based on primary sources that makes this connection. Even your own link makes clear that the connection is entirely supposed: "the Easter Hare is unintelligible to me, but probably the hare was the sacred animal of Ostara." Just a guess.

Your link also, I believe confuses who made that statement. Based on this: https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/ from folklorist Stephen Winick, the quote there isn't from Jacob Grimm but Adolph Holtzmann. Grimm's contribution is to invent the idea of Eostre being a manifestation of a more widespread goddess he called Ostara, but there's no evidence for that outside of his supposition.

It's a myth that makes sense to modern ears, but when I say there's no evidence for it, this is what I'm talking about.

Here’s the post troll pp is trying to put some distance from

You mean the post that says the iconography "likely arose in a Christian culture" but provides no evidence or citations because none exist whatsoever, but there is at least one citation of it being pagan? That post? I don't want any distance from that post - in fact I want it highlighted! Keep reposting it!

Easter statues:

I'm that PP and there's zero citations to the symbolism being pagan, just the name, and the evidence that it arose in a Christian culture is that our first record of the symbolism is from a Christian culture, 17th century Germany. You seem uninterested in responding to that fact, though, which makes this all kind of pointless. If you find a contemporary source connecting rabbits to Eostre worship or to Christian celebration of Easter before, say, the year 1200, please share it, though.

The 8th century Bede text has already been posted.

8th century is before 17th, right? And before 1200?

Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

I did find an 8th century rabbit statue though! But I confess it is Chinese.



Statues trump everything else, right? STATUES FOR THE WIN!

Again, this is not a contemporary account. It was written hundreds of years later. Didn't the pagans keep records? Didn't they write anything down?

DP. There are traces of evidence for the 5th century British pagan god Woden, in place names etc. And there was a god called Thunor, the evidence for which is symbols on graves.

Nothing except Bede’s questionable reference for this Oestra, though. Nothing at all about rabbits and eggs.

NP. This isn't amateur sleuthing either. The Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore says "Nowadays, many writers claim that hares were sacred to the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, but there is no shred of evidence for this". And it goes on to say that Bede, pretty much the only extant source for the name, doesn't mention hares or rabbits.

It's the folkloric equivalent of being taken in by a fashionable urban legend.

[Anonymous]

Lol... you people are funny.

"There's no evidence!" when there is some evidence.

and then you back this claim up by providing.... no evidence.

You'll always have the statues, though. No one can take that away from you.