Please. Stop. Blaming. Others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

+many. Get it right OP.

OP said that people blame "other "lesser" URM kids, "lesser" public schools with grade inflation, "yield protection", etc....I'd say she got it EXACTLY right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

Amen. It's more than just a flood of applicants and even the flood of applicants has its origin, which is part of the broken system.

Aren't we get vocal and drive change when things are broken? And if you don't think things are broken when 1600 SAT scores and 4.5 GPAs don't get you into good schools, we have different expectations for Higher EDUCATION in America.

They do get you into good schools. Just not the good schools that you think give you bragging rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

Amen. It's more than just a flood of applicants and even the flood of applicants has its origin, which is part of the broken system.

Aren't we get vocal and drive change when things are broken? And if you don't think things are broken when 1600 SAT scores and 4.5 GPAs don't get you into good schools, we have different expectations for Higher EDUCATION in America.

They do get you into good schools. Just not the good schools that you think give you bragging rights.

+1
There were over 6 million applications to schools (multiple applications by the same students) through the Common App last year. Kids with top SAT scores and grades are getting into very good schools, but there's a lot of competition and grades/scores aren't the only thing that matters. I guarantee you no Intel or Regeneron winners are losing out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think grade and SAT inflation is also really hurting parent and student expectations. Back in the 90s only 1-2 kids at my high school had a 4.0 GPA. There were no weighted classes so no GPAs above a 4.0 at all. I got into Carnegie Mellon with a 3.75 GPA, which was very near the top of the class for my high school; the top student ended up at Harvard.

Now students who would have been B students in the 90s have 4.3 GPA, leading both them and their parents not to realize that a top GPA is now a 4.9 or some other nonsense. It's the same with SAT scores. A 1400 used to be really good. Now it seems anything under a 1550 is mediocre. All of the good students are bunched at the top, leading to a lack of separation amongst top students and more of a lotto feeling as to who gets in. The grading scale is fundamentally broken.

It's not broken, it's intentional. And it should be considered fraud. The school brass and teachers keep gullible parents dumb and happy (and quiet) with fake As and the College Board gets suckers hooked to their fake inflated tests.

I see so many parents bragging about their kid's "all A's" and you can just tell by the course list and the kid's orbit they are an average layabout. The parents who brag about the A's never brag about official AP scores or SAT score.

Because those tests are not as predictive as grades are.

And we know you hate public schools.

My kids went to Fairfax County public schools for 12 years, and I think those tests are much more predictive and objective.
Grades fluctuate even with the luck with teachers. Some teachers are laid back and give more generous grades. Some teachers are harsh graders.
Imagine the fluctuation by different schools, counties, states, and parts of countries.

I agree that GPA is the least reliable indicator of academic ability and actual knowledge acquisition, though it may be a good indicator of knowing how to figure out teachers and give them what they want, plus some short term memory ability if you have a shcool that actually gives tests (many don't even bother with that anymore). These are skills too, and both require a lot of faking it sometimes. Not everyone is good at that. Getting good grades is often a big measure of EQ and how charming you are, as teachers do have a lot of subjective input into the final letter that goes on the report card.

This is such a good point and one that a lot of people don’t seem to focus on. And the kids with high EQ and charm generally go on to do very well in college and the working world too. I am remembering when my kid with perfect stats was disgruntled because she was rejected fron her HYPSM dream school while a friend with lower stats and a hook made it in. My DD told me it wasn’t fair because she’d worked on tons of group projects with this other kid, and my DD somehow always ended up doing all the work to earn them both the A. I asked her why she kept letting this other girl in her group and she said it was because her friend was really funny and appreciative. I noted that this approach most likely helped her friend have more time to do the various interesting ECs she was involved in and that it seemed like the kid had all the tools necessary to be a CEO type some day. It was not surprising to me that a top school would find this kid more appealing and memorable than my DD, as delightful as my child is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think grade and SAT inflation is also really hurting parent and student expectations. Back in the 90s only 1-2 kids at my high school had a 4.0 GPA. There were no weighted classes so no GPAs above a 4.0 at all. I got into Carnegie Mellon with a 3.75 GPA, which was very near the top of the class for my high school; the top student ended up at Harvard.

Now students who would have been B students in the 90s have 4.3 GPA, leading both them and their parents not to realize that a top GPA is now a 4.9 or some other nonsense. It's the same with SAT scores. A 1400 used to be really good. Now it seems anything under a 1550 is mediocre. All of the good students are bunched at the top, leading to a lack of separation amongst top students and more of a lotto feeling as to who gets in. The grading scale is fundamentally broken.

It's not broken, it's intentional. And it should be considered fraud. The school brass and teachers keep gullible parents dumb and happy (and quiet) with fake As and the College Board gets suckers hooked to their fake inflated tests.

I see so many parents bragging about their kid's "all A's" and you can just tell by the course list and the kid's orbit they are an average layabout. The parents who brag about the A's never brag about official AP scores or SAT score.

Because those tests are not as predictive as grades are.

And we know you hate public schools.

My kids went to Fairfax County public schools for 12 years, and I think those tests are much more predictive and objective.
Grades fluctuate even with the luck with teachers. Some teachers are laid back and give more generous grades. Some teachers are harsh graders.
Imagine the fluctuation by different schools, counties, states, and parts of countries.

I agree that GPA is the least reliable indicator of academic ability and actual knowledge acquisition, though it may be a good indicator of knowing how to figure out teachers and give them what they want, plus some short term memory ability if you have a shcool that actually gives tests (many don't even bother with that anymore). These are skills too, and both require a lot of faking it sometimes. Not everyone is good at that. Getting good grades is often a big measure of EQ and how charming you are, as teachers do have a lot of subjective input into the final letter that goes on the report card.

This is such a good point and one that a lot of people don’t seem to focus on. And the kids with high EQ and charm generally go on to do very well in college and the working world too. I am remembering when my kid with perfect stats was disgruntled because she was rejected fron her HYPSM dream school while a friend with lower stats and a hook made it in. My DD told me it wasn’t fair because she’d worked on tons of group projects with this other kid, and my DD somehow always ended up doing all the work to earn them both the A. I asked her why she kept letting this other girl in her group and she said it was because her friend was really funny and appreciative. I noted that this approach most likely helped her friend have more time to do the various interesting ECs she was involved in and that it seemed like the kid had all the tools necessary to be a CEO type some day. It was not surprising to me that a top school would find this kid more appealing and memorable than my DD, as delightful as my child is.

+1000

Imagine how boring a college would be if they only took kids who got 1600/36 and had 4.0UW. Obviously they could fill each class with just students who meet this criteria. Colleges are looking for a balance of students, and that means diversity across many areas. Anyone who scores over ~1400 on SAT has the ability to do well at any university---including HYPSM/Stanford/MIT. My own DC was deferred ED from dream school and rejected last week in RD. While disappointed, DC knew that it was a crapshoot---RD acceptance rate of ~4%. 95%+ of the 50K+ applicants were likely "highly qualified" for the university. However, my DC is moving on and knew that this was a lottery. DC has been accepted at 7/8 so far and has 3 more this week, but also realizes these are a crapshoot/lottery. DC has 1 true safety in those that DC would be thrilled to attend and 2 acceptances at top 40 schools that I know many were rejected from. Moving on to do final visits and make a choice between those 2 top acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

Amen. It's more than just a flood of applicants and even the flood of applicants has its origin, which is part of the broken system.

Aren't we get vocal and drive change when things are broken? And if you don't think things are broken when 1600 SAT scores and 4.5 GPAs don't get you into good schools, we have different expectations for Higher EDUCATION in America.

They do get you into good schools. Just not the good schools that you think give you bragging rights.

As if bragging rights were worth a nickel. You know what is worth a nickel? Getting into a top school. Check the stats and the outcomes and the starting salaries. We can rah rah all day long about it not mattering or it being right to "balance" classes but when the outcome is a 160K starting salary vs. a 72K starting salary for the same degree, you'd have to have your head in the sand not to think WHERE matters. And I think it's pretty reasonable for kids who have stellar academics to expect to go to colleges with stellar academics and to feel pretty upset when non-stellar academics are admitted instead. And contrary to belief, the number of people going to college is declining. The number of applications is exploding due to TO and people having no f-ing idea where they can get in anymore. If colleges keep rejecting the top academics they will begin to see their reputation decline as their graduates become increasingly less capable. Sure this will take years and years to prove out but look at history and the decline of great empires. They forget what made them great to begin with and that set the stage for their eventual demise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

Amen. It's more than just a flood of applicants and even the flood of applicants has its origin, which is part of the broken system.

Aren't we get vocal and drive change when things are broken? And if you don't think things are broken when 1600 SAT scores and 4.5 GPAs don't get you into good schools, we have different expectations for Higher EDUCATION in America.

They do get you into good schools. Just not the good schools that you think give you bragging rights.

As if bragging rights were worth a nickel. You know what is worth a nickel? Getting into a top school. Check the stats and the outcomes and the starting salaries. We can rah rah all day long about it not mattering or it being right to "balance" classes but when the outcome is a 160K starting salary vs. a 72K starting salary for the same degree, you'd have to have your head in the sand not to think WHERE matters. And I think it's pretty reasonable for kids who have stellar academics to expect to go to colleges with stellar academics and to feel pretty upset when non-stellar academics are admitted instead. And contrary to belief, the number of people going to college is declining. The number of applications is exploding due to TO and people having no f-ing idea where they can get in anymore. If colleges keep rejecting the top academics they will begin to see their reputation decline as their graduates become increasingly less capable. Sure this will take years and years to prove out but look at history and the decline of great empires. They forget what made them great to begin with and that set the stage for their eventual demise.

OMG. Exaggerate much?? Who says that the kids getting in don’t have high academic stats. Just because a college may not take 4.0 and 1600 kid does not mean the 3.95 and 1500 kid is not as a capable. Maybe the 3.95 kid also had better ECs. No institution will develop a bad reputation because everybody is not a 4.0.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

Amen. It's more than just a flood of applicants and even the flood of applicants has its origin, which is part of the broken system.

Aren't we get vocal and drive change when things are broken? And if you don't think things are broken when 1600 SAT scores and 4.5 GPAs don't get you into good schools, we have different expectations for Higher EDUCATION in America.

They do get you into good schools. Just not the good schools that you think give you bragging rights.

As if bragging rights were worth a nickel. You know what is worth a nickel? Getting into a top school. Check the stats and the outcomes and the starting salaries. We can rah rah all day long about it not mattering or it being right to "balance" classes but when the outcome is a 160K starting salary vs. a 72K starting salary for the same degree, you'd have to have your head in the sand not to think WHERE matters. And I think it's pretty reasonable for kids who have stellar academics to expect to go to colleges with stellar academics and to feel pretty upset when non-stellar academics are admitted instead. And contrary to belief, the number of people going to college is declining. The number of applications is exploding due to TO and people having no f-ing idea where they can get in anymore. If colleges keep rejecting the top academics they will begin to see their reputation decline as their graduates become increasingly less capable. Sure this will take years and years to prove out but look at history and the decline of great empires. They forget what made them great to begin with and that set the stage for their eventual demise.

OMG. Exaggerate much?? Who says that the kids getting in don’t have high academic stats. Just because a college may not take 4.0 and 1600 kid does not mean the 3.95 and 1500 kid is not as a capable. Maybe the 3.95 kid also had better ECs. No institution will develop a bad reputation because everybody is not a 4.0.

Seriously. And if a bunch of those 4.0/1600 kids land at schools of a slightly lower tier then won't that just make those schools better? The T30-or-bust crowd will never open their minds to the idea that there is more to a stellar education than the stats that go into the USNWR rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

+many. Get it right OP.

OP said that people blame "other "lesser" URM kids, "lesser" public schools with grade inflation, "yield protection", etc....I'd say she got it EXACTLY right.

I think OP got it pretty close, yes stop blaming others. Some kids get in, some don't. Things happen and it can be a crap shoot. BUT what wasn't said is that for those students who get in, and act entitled and more deserving than those that didn't get accepted, they need to STOP. ACTING. BETTER. THAN. OTHERS. They aren't. Things went their way this time. Good, nothing wrong with hard work and some luck working together.

If all can be gracious and parents could STOP thinking thier kids' college acceptances is a medal of honor to wear, things would be SO much more balanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

+many. Get it right OP.

OP said that people blame "other "lesser" URM kids, "lesser" public schools with grade inflation, "yield protection", etc....I'd say she got it EXACTLY right.

I think OP got it pretty close, yes stop blaming others. Some kids get in, some don't. Things happen and it can be a crap shoot. BUT what wasn't said is that for those students who get in, and act entitled and more deserving than those that didn't get accepted, they need to STOP. ACTING. BETTER. THAN. OTHERS. They aren't. Things went their way this time. Good, nothing wrong with hard work and some luck working together.

If all can be gracious and parents could STOP thinking thier kids' college acceptances is a medal of honor to wear, things would be SO much more balanced.

Well said...kids, it's fine to show up to school with your College X sweatshirt the day after you get accepted, but understand that there might be 5 kids in your class who got rejected so maybe don't talk about how it's your dream school nonstop during math class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The process may be broken, but we also must understand that capacity at the best schools has not kept pace with the increase in applications. Moreover, there are just more qualified kids. In the past, not everyone was aware of how to play the game at elite schools, but now more people test prep, develop hooks, and are aware of needs-blind admissions. Also, there are so many more opportunities for poor and/or minority kids to attend elite colleges, like Questbridge. Is sum, I don’t know if the system is broken as much as people don’t realize there is a supply constraint even as demand increases. That means the “price” - in this case, the acceptance hurdle - must go higher, which means a lower acceptance rate.

Right. Which means that checking all the boxes for Harvard are necessary, but not sufficient, for admission.

I know someone who was accepted to Harvard. Yes, she got good grades and scores.But so did thousands of others She is also a professional ballerina. Really - who can compete with something like this? 😂

What is wrong with student at that level of talent going to an elite college? Imagine the talent drive and work that went into developing ballet to the point where you can work professionally in the field at the age of 17. That seems like the type of person that would be a good fit for an elite university.

Yes, she also had the cash to study ballet, go to international competitions and be put into a performing arts high school by wealthy parents... Again, this is hard for most middle class folks to afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s what is wrong with “the system”:

The obsession with USNews rankings.

These rankings really are meaningless. There are thousands of colleges. Ok, realistically, maybe 300-500 excellent ones. But people are convinced that there are only 25-50 that are good enough for Larla. And that is 100 percent the fault of USNews.

No, it is the fault of schools and parents who salivate over USNews and give its rankings oxygen. They're just trying to sell magazines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents and students here aren’t blaming “others”. They are blaming a broken system

Amen. It's more than just a flood of applicants and even the flood of applicants has its origin, which is part of the broken system.

Aren't we get vocal and drive change when things are broken? And if you don't think things are broken when 1600 SAT scores and 4.5 GPAs don't get you into good schools, we have different expectations for Higher EDUCATION in America.

They do get you into good schools. Just not the good schools that you think give you bragging rights.

As if bragging rights were worth a nickel. You know what is worth a nickel? Getting into a top school. Check the stats and the outcomes and the starting salaries. We can rah rah all day long about it not mattering or it being right to "balance" classes but when the outcome is a 160K starting salary vs. a 72K starting salary for the same degree, you'd have to have your head in the sand not to think WHERE matters. And I think it's pretty reasonable for kids who have stellar academics to expect to go to colleges with stellar academics and to feel pretty upset when non-stellar academics are admitted instead. And contrary to belief, the number of people going to college is declining. The number of applications is exploding due to TO and people having no f-ing idea where they can get in anymore. If colleges keep rejecting the top academics they will begin to see their reputation decline as their graduates become increasingly less capable. Sure this will take years and years to prove out but look at history and the decline of great empires. They forget what made them great to begin with and that set the stage for their eventual demise.

If you believe this is universally true, you are still living your own college days in the '80s.

If the definition of success for you is salary outcome (you're really that materialistic, PP?), you will have to work a lot harder to convince me that an undergrad from a top 1-15 school who skates through classes and doesn't take advantage of internship, trave and other opportunities, is going to start with a higher salary than a work-your-ass-off kid from a T50 or below who knows how to network and make things happen. Unless, of course, our top school kid walks right into daddy's business, or a job with granddaddy's connections, which s/he was groomed to do since birth. And in that case, it doesn't matter anyway, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The process may be broken, but we also must understand that capacity at the best schools has not kept pace with the increase in applications. Moreover, there are just more qualified kids. In the past, not everyone was aware of how to play the game at elite schools, but now more people test prep, develop hooks, and are aware of needs-blind admissions. Also, there are so many more opportunities for poor and/or minority kids to attend elite colleges, like Questbridge. Is sum, I don’t know if the system is broken as much as people don’t realize there is a supply constraint even as demand increases. That means the “price” - in this case, the acceptance hurdle - must go higher, which means a lower acceptance rate.

Right. Which means that checking all the boxes for Harvard are necessary, but not sufficient, for admission.

I know someone who was accepted to Harvard. Yes, she got good grades and scores.But so did thousands of others She is also a professional ballerina. Really - who can compete with something like this? 😂

What is wrong with student at that level of talent going to an elite college? Imagine the talent drive and work that went into developing ballet to the point where you can work professionally in the field at the age of 17. That seems like the type of person that would be a good fit for an elite university.

Yes, she also had the cash to study ballet, go to international competitions and be put into a performing arts high school by wealthy parents... Again, this is hard for most middle class folks to afford.

Yep. Shoes alone are about $800 a month when they dance that much and at that level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The process may be broken, but we also must understand that capacity at the best schools has not kept pace with the increase in applications. Moreover, there are just more qualified kids. In the past, not everyone was aware of how to play the game at elite schools, but now more people test prep, develop hooks, and are aware of needs-blind admissions. Also, there are so many more opportunities for poor and/or minority kids to attend elite colleges, like Questbridge. Is sum, I don’t know if the system is broken as much as people don’t realize there is a supply constraint even as demand increases. That means the “price” - in this case, the acceptance hurdle - must go higher, which means a lower acceptance rate.

Right. Which means that checking all the boxes for Harvard are necessary, but not sufficient, for admission.

I know someone who was accepted to Harvard. Yes, she got good grades and scores.But so did thousands of others She is also a professional ballerina. Really - who can compete with something like this? 😂

What is wrong with student at that level of talent going to an elite college? Imagine the talent drive and work that went into developing ballet to the point where you can work professionally in the field at the age of 17. That seems like the type of person that would be a good fit for an elite university.

Yes, she also had the cash to study ballet, go to international competitions and be put into a performing arts high school by wealthy parents... Again, this is hard for most middle class folks to afford.

Ok. And the majority of students that succeed to the point of gaining admission to elite schools have privilege....they get a private education or a public education from a school system that invests a lot of dollars per pupil.

There is effort made to give access to more disadvantaged students and that needs to increase. Why equalize the field by picking off the talented, if privileged, ballerinas? Elevate the education and opportunities available to lower income students.