At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that socioeconomic status isn’t just about money. There is a huge socio part to it. So, I will always feel middle class because that is how I grew up and it is a part of me despite having a high income. Why does it matter how someone feels? We should talk about facts and how we allocate responsibilities like taxes based on facts. Income of X is high earning. I think it should be taxed at a higher rate than income of Y. None of this feeling stuff. It is too squishy and doesn’t move the conversation along. Just makes people crazy.

Yes! Americans convolute class and income. These are not the same thing as almost any European will tell you. I feel middle class because I am as my tastes and attitude will demonstrate. I am definitely upper income and high wealth. I'm still middle class!

Well, we are in America, and class and income are more intertwined and flexible than in some other places. If we aren't talking about income/wealth, then who cares about having a defined middle class? What is that definition useful for?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that socioeconomic status isn’t just about money. There is a huge socio part to it. So, I will always feel middle class because that is how I grew up and it is a part of me despite having a high income. Why does it matter how someone feels? We should talk about facts and how we allocate responsibilities like taxes based on facts. Income of X is high earning. I think it should be taxed at a higher rate than income of Y. None of this feeling stuff. It is too squishy and doesn’t move the conversation along. Just makes people crazy.

Yes! Americans convolute class and income. These are not the same thing as almost any European will tell you. I feel middle class because I am as my tastes and attitude will demonstrate. I am definitely upper income and high wealth. I'm still middle class!

How would you separate middle class from the income ranges discussed? Can somebody ever feel middle class, upper middle class, upper class, etc… or are those labels defined more by attitude and actions rather than money to spend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:125. You all are scary wealthy and not middle class.

I definitely felt middle class when we made $110k.

Expenses:
Taxes: $12k
Insurance: $5k
Retirement: $12k
Rent: $12k
Utilities (including cell phones): $5k
Student loans: $5k
Childcare for 2 kids: $25k
Cars: $6k
Vacation: $2k
Charity: $2k
Food: $8k
Gas: $8k
Total: $104,000

That meant that we had about $500/month for the four of us for everything else we needed to buy from band-aids and baby bottles to car and home repairs to furniture and clothes. I'm not saying that we were dirt poor or anything. We were saving for retirement. Our kids were in a good daycare, and we had everything we needed. We had lived in Appalachia prior to that and had friends who were truly poor.

But we were definitely still middle class.

To show our breakdown at a higher income.

Income: $305k
Expenses:
Taxes: $77k (state, fed, social security, medicare)
Heath (premiums + OOP): $8k
Car/Home Insurance: $6k
Retirement/Savings: $125k
Mortgage/Tax: $27k (3bd, 2bath, 1300 sq ft)
Utilities (including cell,internet): $5k
Student loans: $0k (paid off at age 30)
Childcare for 1 kid: $26k
Cars: $6k is probably average yearly cost, but we bought in cash and share a single car
Vacation: $6k. Usually is more like $10k, but COVID...
Charity: $6k
Food: $12k
Gas: $1.5k (artificially low this year due to covid)
Remaining stuff: $5.5k (house stuff, repairs, clothes/shoes, gifts, etc.)

Key thing is that if we needed to, we could reduce savings to cover increases in spending in areas we wanted, or go down to single income. We have a lot of flexibility that middle class families don't. One example is high food spending, that would be a place I could reduce, but it just isn't worth the mental load to try to do it, so I just make the choice not to for now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that socioeconomic status isn’t just about money. There is a huge socio part to it. So, I will always feel middle class because that is how I grew up and it is a part of me despite having a high income. Why does it matter how someone feels? We should talk about facts and how we allocate responsibilities like taxes based on facts. Income of X is high earning. I think it should be taxed at a higher rate than income of Y. None of this feeling stuff. It is too squishy and doesn’t move the conversation along. Just makes people crazy.

Yes! Americans convolute class and income. These are not the same thing as almost any European will tell you. I feel middle class because I am as my tastes and attitude will demonstrate. I am definitely upper income and high wealth. I'm still middle class!

How would you separate middle class from the income ranges discussed? Can somebody ever feel middle class, upper middle class, upper class, etc… or are those labels defined more by attitude and actions rather than money to spend?

Class does not equal income. Class is about behavior and tastes. Most upper class will be highly educated, usually in private school. They will value health, exercise, travel, and nutritious food. They choose quality over quantity. They are normally physically fit and social chameleons.

Income bands largely follow these, but not always. In my opinion upper income will be 250k+ in an average American city (DC is not average, so it's higher here, maybe 500k+). Middle income is probably more like 80k-250k and will depend on number of kids, a spouse that stays home and supplements education, etc. Lower could even include an 80k household where both parents work and there is an emotional scarcity for the kiddos. In other words, it depends on the situation. If you have enough and everyones' emotional buckets are full and there's not much left over, then you're middle income (and probably middle class).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:125. You all are scary wealthy and not middle class.

I definitely felt middle class when we made $110k.

Expenses:

Taxes: $12k
Insurance: $5k
Retirement: $12k
Rent: $12k
Utilities (including cell phones): $5k
Student loans: $5k
Childcare for 2 kids: $25k
Cars: $6k
Vacation: $2k
Charity: $2k
Food: $8k
Gas: $8k

Total: $104,000

That meant that we had about $500/month for the four of us for everything else we needed to buy from band-aids and baby bottles to car and home repairs to furniture and clothes. I'm not saying that we were dirt poor or anything. We were saving for retirement. Our kids were in a good daycare, and we had everything we needed. We had lived in Appalachia prior to that and had friends who were truly poor.

But we were definitely still middle class.

That's a lot of money on cars for your income.

This budget does not make sense. Why give that much to charity? Cars and gas is excessive too.

We plan on spending $600 a month on charity and typically give more, on HHI of about $275k. The main reason is because if the choice is between us spending it on consumer goods or giving it to organizations that will help people, it's hard to justify just buying more crap with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

400k

My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.

You must be referring to feeling ‘upper’ middle class. There’s no way at that hhi you would only feel middle class unless you have 10 kids or six figure debt or something.

How do you know the schools were high priced? College and medical school are not free.

We’re both doctors who went to medical school relatively late and prior to medical school worked in poorly paid positions, so basically saved nothing. We started making a combined income around $300K a few years ago. We have focused a lot on paying down debt and only have about $35K left. We just bought a $1.3M house in a HCOL area (outside NYC) last year and took out a 401K loan of $45K to afford it and we’ve been paying that loan back this year, which has been tough. We also have 2 kids in preschool and a nanny, because our hours are long and unpredictable and we don’t have any family help. We have one fully paid off car (2018 Subaru) and are putting off buying another car for as long as possible. We haven’t taken a vacation since 2019. I realize that paying off our debt (minus the mortgage) is temporary. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that I came from a very middle class background (HHI under 70K, both parents routinely worked more than one job) or that I live in a very HCOL area where everyone around me seems to make way more.

You have a spending issue. You choose to go to high priced schools and then bought an insanely expensive house. You could have done cheaper housing, you could have done day care and a baby sitter. Your choices don't make you middle class.

If you think $1.3M is a crazy amount to spend on a house, you are really out of touch. There comes a point where you can't actually find something decent for less. A small 3 bedroom home outside NYC is at least $1.3m and it doesn't make sense to have a crazy commute and never see your spouse or kids. I don't think OP was saying she regretted medical school but it is expensive and the loans have to be paid off. No vacations and driving a Subaru does not sound like a "spending issue" to me. You just sound bitter.

There is no point at which you can't find "something decent" for less than $1.3 million. You may not be able to find something that meets every single preference you have, but that's not the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Class does not equal income. Class is about behavior and tastes. Most upper class will be highly educated, usually in private school. They will value health, exercise, travel, and nutritious food. They choose quality over quantity. They are normally physically fit and social chameleons.

Many many middle class (and lower class) people value education health, exercise, travel, and nutrition food, and quality over quantity. You may say they are just emulating the wealthy, but these are very common values. Money is what gives you the ability to pursue these values in specific ways. You can value world travel all you want, but can you afford making it happen, or are you doing more local travel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

400k

My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.

You might just be dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Class does not equal income. Class is about behavior and tastes. Most upper class will be highly educated, usually in private school. They will value health, exercise, travel, and nutritious food. They choose quality over quantity. They are normally physically fit and social chameleons.

Many many middle class (and lower class) people value education health, exercise, travel, and nutrition food, and quality over quantity. You may say they are just emulating the wealthy, but these are very common values. Money is what gives you the ability to pursue these values in specific ways. You can value world travel all you want, but can you afford making it happen, or are you doing more local travel?

Most average Americans have the mentality of bigger=better and more stuff is better than less even if it's crappy plastic junk made in China or cheap clothing made of synthetic fibers. It's actually difficult to find real quality these days. Even some expensive brands are cheap quality.

And if what you say is true about exercise and health, why is everyone so fat (60% of the population is over weight, 30% obese)? It's just sad. So no, they don't value these things. The stats just aren't in your favor here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

400k

My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.

You might just be dumb.

+1. We are mid-30s on $450k and we are most definitely UMC. Nice house, nanny + preschool instead of daycare, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So for us, it was less about an actual dollar amount and more about not worrying about money.

If my kids need something for school or sports, I'll pay to have it overnighted. However, I won't spend more than $50 on sunglasses because I break or lose them.

I spend money on what I value and save on what I don't value.

My husband makes about $375,000 - $425,000 and I make $30,000-$2000,000 depending on how my investments do that year. All of my money goes into retirement and college savings so I never really feel like I'm earning anything. I never see it. I don't even have an ATM card or checkbook for my accounts because we don't touch them. I have family money that I haven't touched except for a down payment on our house but it's there as a cushion and helped us relax in lean years. My husband didn't come from money but has about $8million in a bank account from selling a company he owned.

I have a healthy bank account but I don't feel rich. I feel like there are always people around here with much, much more.

Family money
Investments
8m from sale of company
HHI of 400-600k

You don’t have “lean” years. You are rich. Good lord, y’all are the dumbest people I’ve ever encountered.

Seriously! “I’m middle class… except for the $8m in my bank account”

[Anonymous]

People on this thread are either clueless or liars. 99% of you are in the top 5% in the USA the top 1% in the world.

If you feel you are not, honestly, get yourself some therapy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We live in a Chicago suburb. Not the highest cost of living, not the lowest. Once we started making about 125K, we stopped feeling like middle class. For my area, I'd say middle class for a family of 4 is 80K-125K.

We are also in a Chicago suburb. We have a HHI of $140k and feel middle class (but we have two kids in childcare)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People on this thread are either clueless or liars. 99% of you are in the top 5% in the USA the top 1% in the world.

If you feel you are not, honestly, get yourself some therapy.

It is a longstanding trend for nearly all Americans, on both ends of the spectrum, to consider themselves middle class. Wealthy people look at the uber-rich and say, "well, I can't live like that, and THAT is rich".

This thread was bound to bring out the wealthy claiming to be middle class. It is almost as common as threads where people mock the wealthy for not being "truly wealthy"

[Anonymous]

I always felt middle class from my first real job at 22, making 45k. As my income grew so did life. From renting to condo, to kids, to a house etc.

It took 2-3 years in a row making in the 350-450k range to feel UMC. There was just way more money then we needed at that point. Went from 1 big vacation to 3 each year. Didn’t have to think at all about small purchases and even large purchases didn’t cause much stress anymore. It definitely felt different, we’ve been in that range for 5 years now (with an unusual lucky 520k year last year). It was as much about the savings adding up as it was about the income, the combo is what gave the UMC feel.