Bad Art Friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

Ehhhh the thing is that mocking pumpkin spice lattes is code for saying white people are dumb and like dumb terrible things. Especially women. We all know it/ It's how white women are either "basic b**ch" or "not like other girls" - and eff both these dumb stereotypes. This is the BB stereotype, and we know who it's about, and we know it's there to show what bad taste WW have and how dumb WW are, and how everything WW like is soooo mockable. I guess she'll come after Ted Lasso next because LOL WW are so basic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

Ehhhh the thing is that mocking pumpkin spice lattes is code for saying white people are dumb and like dumb terrible things. Especially women. We all know it/ It's how white women are either "basic b**ch" or "not like other girls" - and eff both these dumb stereotypes. This is the BB stereotype, and we know who it's about, and we know it's there to show what bad taste WW have and how dumb WW are, and how everything WW like is soooo mockable. I guess she'll come after Ted Lasso next because LOL WW are so basic.

I agree. I am white and hate all things pumkin, but this is obviously a socially acceptable way to say white women suck. A certain kind of white women for sure, but if we pull back, we can see that this is similar to all nasty dialogue that aims to mock people and divide them.

RG has a legitimate axe to grind with society as a fat, black, gay woman. She is clever. She can write. But as I tell my kids, you can use your talents for good, or for evil.

[Anonymous]

I have no connection to the literary world; I just love writing (for myself) and reading. As someone who had a background similar to Dawn’s, I’m really impressed by her ability to open up to people and try to authentically connect with them despite her history as an “outsider.” Making herself so vulnerable and then having her heart stomped on in return must have been nearly unbearable.

[shan1212]

Anonymous wrote:

I honestly don't think I could ever trust a writer workshop program like GrubStreet at this point, and I have done them before. Were the teachers all actually just mocking their students behind their backs?

This reminds of the book The Plot, about a writer who can't replicate the minor success of his first novel and teaches these kinds of workshops (while hating every moment of it). Then a student comes along with a supposedly guaranteed best-seller plot and, well, you know, twists and turns and all that . . . Haha. But anyway, I had never really thought about writers' workshops before reading that book.

[Anonymous]

shan1212 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I honestly don't think I could ever trust a writer workshop program like GrubStreet at this point, and I have done them before. Were the teachers all actually just mocking their students behind their backs?

This reminds of the book The Plot, about a writer who can't replicate the minor success of his first novel and teaches these kinds of workshops (while hating every moment of it). Then a student comes along with a supposedly guaranteed best-seller plot and, well, you know, twists and turns and all that . . . Haha. But anyway, I had never really thought about writers' workshops before reading that book.

I loved that book! What twists! (I wonder if DD is deviously playing a long game here.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

shan1212 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I honestly don't think I could ever trust a writer workshop program like GrubStreet at this point, and I have done them before. Were the teachers all actually just mocking their students behind their backs?

This reminds of the book The Plot, about a writer who can't replicate the minor success of his first novel and teaches these kinds of workshops (while hating every moment of it). Then a student comes along with a supposedly guaranteed best-seller plot and, well, you know, twists and turns and all that . . . Haha. But anyway, I had never really thought about writers' workshops before reading that book.

I loved that book! What twists! (I wonder if DD is deviously playing a long game here.)

Looks like I have a new book to read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

Ehhhh the thing is that mocking pumpkin spice lattes is code for saying white people are dumb and like dumb terrible things. Especially women. We all know it/ It's how white women are either "basic b**ch" or "not like other girls" - and eff both these dumb stereotypes. This is the BB stereotype, and we know who it's about, and we know it's there to show what bad taste WW have and how dumb WW are, and how everything WW like is soooo mockable. I guess she'll come after Ted Lasso next because LOL WW are so basic.

I agree. I am white and hate all things pumkin, but this is obviously a socially acceptable way to say white women suck. A certain kind of white women for sure, but if we pull back, we can see that this is similar to all nasty dialogue that aims to mock people and divide them.

RG has a legitimate axe to grind with society as a fat, black, gay woman. She is clever. She can write. But as I tell my kids, you can use your talents for good, or for evil.

Sure, but a PSL joke just isn't on the level of what she and Ng and the rest of the Grub Street crowd leveled at Dorland. I mean, you are never going to rid the world of nasty people you disagree with using unfunny attempts at humor in ways you don't like. Do I think the PSL joke was funny? Not at all. It's tired and stupid and derivative. But is it anything like Gay's prior tweets in the Dorland matter, personally directed at Dorland? Also no.

There is a clear separation of bad behavior here, in other words, and I think conflating the two risks weakening the real and very troubling actions that Gay took with respect to Dorland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

Ehhhh the thing is that mocking pumpkin spice lattes is code for saying white people are dumb and like dumb terrible things. Especially women. We all know it/ It's how white women are either "basic b**ch" or "not like other girls" - and eff both these dumb stereotypes. This is the BB stereotype, and we know who it's about, and we know it's there to show what bad taste WW have and how dumb WW are, and how everything WW like is soooo mockable. I guess she'll come after Ted Lasso next because LOL WW are so basic.

I agree. I am white and hate all things pumkin, but this is obviously a socially acceptable way to say white women suck. A certain kind of white women for sure, but if we pull back, we can see that this is similar to all nasty dialogue that aims to mock people and divide them.

RG has a legitimate axe to grind with society as a fat, black, gay woman. She is clever. She can write. But as I tell my kids, you can use your talents for good, or for evil.

Sure, but a PSL joke just isn't on the level of what she and Ng and the rest of the Grub Street crowd leveled at Dorland. I mean, you are never going to rid the world of nasty people you disagree with using unfunny attempts at humor in ways you don't like. Do I think the PSL joke was funny? Not at all. It's tired and stupid and derivative. But is it anything like Gay's prior tweets in the Dorland matter, personally directed at Dorland? Also no.

There is a clear separation of bad behavior here, in other words, and I think conflating the two risks weakening the real and very troubling actions that Gay took with respect to Dorland.

Oh for sure! I think it's a casually small time nasty remark that is couched in racial stereotypes, but against a group (WW) who no one thinks it's at all wrong to be racist against. I think it fits in with RG's overall smugness and casual racism against white people - which she displayed against DD but instantly assuming the very worst against her, saying those things out loud, and then doubling down about how there's nothing wrong with what she said. I think this PSL is a minor insignificant and still irritating small time example of her overall nasty and problematic attitude against a whole group of people. One she feels comfortable saying out loud because - at least right now - there's no social penalty for being bigoted against WW.

And just so it's understood: I am super liberal, I am a proud Biden voter, fully in favor of the 1619 project, even of critical race theory, all that. I am not a white grievance person. But I recognize this as problematic, and I don't like it. I guess the kids would call it a microaggression, and I don't like it. (I don't like PSL either but who cares.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this story provokes a "yuck" response in a lot of people and that makes people want to say "everyone is equally culpable." I get it. This kind of intractable interpersonal conflict is so unpleasant to be around. If you've ever had something akin to this happen in your social circle or at job or in a school you attended, you can probably relate to the feeling of "oh my god, just stop."

But usually in these situations, both sides have behaved kind of badly from the start. Like one person was a bully, but the other person was also gossiping behind their back or something. At least, that's been my experience. I keep waiting to hear that's the case here too. I keep waiting to find out exactly what it was that made Sonya Larson decide that Dawn Dorland was a villain worthy of a take down. The race angle had me waiting to read that Dawn had been engaging in micro aggression, had a history of negative behavior toward Sonya or POC in general, that kind of thing. The fact that it's been weeks and I still haven't seen anything like this though, makes me think it's not out there.

And that leads me back to what we know, which is that Sonya and her friends were really, really annoyed with Dawn for talking about her kidney donation. And by my count, she was punished for this "crime" with:

- Nasty gossip and backbiting from people who called themselves her friends and were nice to her face
- A thinly veiled takedown of her kidney donation in Sonya's story
- The theft of a letter she wrote from a private FB group
- The potential mishandling of a sexual harassment claim at Grub Street
- Literal years of gaslighting from Sony and others about all of the above
- A lawsuit initiated by Sonya
- Getting dragged in the NYT and on Twitter by Sonya and multiple bestselling authors who Dawn almost certainly counts among her literary heroes

If this happened to me, I can tell you for certain I would not have gone after Sonya as aggressively. No way would I have done things like ask a publisher to pull the story or offer me space to publish my own response. But it's not because I'm nicer or kinder or more emotionally stable than Dawn. It's because I lack the self-esteem and the effing cajones to stand up for myself like that. If this happened to me, I'd probably just crawl away and stop writing and focus on treating the depression, anxiety, and PTSD this situation would definitely cause.

So, no, I don't think Dawn is now the Bad Art Friend.

Excellent post! I feel the same, I am not sure I would have the guts to stand up for myself the way DD has. Don't we want women to stand up for themselves?

[Anonymous]

You know, yesterday I went to open my NYT app out of habit to check the news and browse the stories. I found myself looking askance at the app on my phone. I had this feeling of ew, yuck, can I trust them? Between Kolker and Roxane Gay, I am disappointed to say the least, and feel a definite sense of skepticism about them as a news outlet and an arbiter of culture.

Just a few months ago, Gay wrote a column for the Times, "Why People Are So Awful Online". Not gonna link it, but oh the irony. Tell us Roxane, why ARE people so awful online?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know, yesterday I went to open my NYT app out of habit to check the news and browse the stories. I found myself looking askance at the app on my phone. I had this feeling of ew, yuck, can I trust them? Between Kolker and Roxane Gay, I am disappointed to say the least, and feel a definite sense of skepticism about them as a news outlet and an arbiter of culture.

Just a few months ago, Gay wrote a column for the Times, "Why People Are So Awful Online". Not gonna link it, but oh the irony. Tell us Roxane, why ARE people so awful online?

Yes, I'm actually seriously rethinking my subscription. I just don't trust them at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

Ehhhh the thing is that mocking pumpkin spice lattes is code for saying white people are dumb and like dumb terrible things. Especially women. We all know it/ It's how white women are either "basic b**ch" or "not like other girls" - and eff both these dumb stereotypes. This is the BB stereotype, and we know who it's about, and we know it's there to show what bad taste WW have and how dumb WW are, and how everything WW like is soooo mockable. I guess she'll come after Ted Lasso next because LOL WW are so basic.

I agree. I am white and hate all things pumkin, but this is obviously a socially acceptable way to say white women suck. A certain kind of white women for sure, but if we pull back, we can see that this is similar to all nasty dialogue that aims to mock people and divide them.

RG has a legitimate axe to grind with society as a fat, black, gay woman. She is clever. She can write. But as I tell my kids, you can use your talents for good, or for evil.

Sure, but a PSL joke just isn't on the level of what she and Ng and the rest of the Grub Street crowd leveled at Dorland. I mean, you are never going to rid the world of nasty people you disagree with using unfunny attempts at humor in ways you don't like. Do I think the PSL joke was funny? Not at all. It's tired and stupid and derivative. But is it anything like Gay's prior tweets in the Dorland matter, personally directed at Dorland? Also no.

There is a clear separation of bad behavior here, in other words, and I think conflating the two risks weakening the real and very troubling actions that Gay took with respect to Dorland.

Oh for sure! I think it's a casually small time nasty remark that is couched in racial stereotypes, but against a group (WW) who no one thinks it's at all wrong to be racist against. I think it fits in with RG's overall smugness and casual racism against white people - which she displayed against DD but instantly assuming the very worst against her, saying those things out loud, and then doubling down about how there's nothing wrong with what she said. I think this PSL is a minor insignificant and still irritating small time example of her overall nasty and problematic attitude against a whole group of people. One she feels comfortable saying out loud because - at least right now - there's no social penalty for being bigoted against WW.

And just so it's understood: I am super liberal, I am a proud Biden voter, fully in favor of the 1619 project, even of critical race theory, all that. I am not a white grievance person. But I recognize this as problematic, and I don't like it. I guess the kids would call it a microaggression, and I don't like it. (I don't like PSL either but who cares.)

Thank you so much for putting it so much better than I did when I dropped this in. I was not conflating the two. I am mixed, I am not a white grievance person. But I don’t like this at all, and I only saw it because I read Datalounge, and a poster there noted her comment and that this is apparently a way that RG goes to the mattresses when she’s been wildly unfair in her online behavior.

I didn’t know she’d opined about why we’re awful online. Ugh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know, yesterday I went to open my NYT app out of habit to check the news and browse the stories. I found myself looking askance at the app on my phone. I had this feeling of ew, yuck, can I trust them? Between Kolker and Roxane Gay, I am disappointed to say the least, and feel a definite sense of skepticism about them as a news outlet and an arbiter of culture.

Just a few months ago, Gay wrote a column for the Times, "Why People Are So Awful Online". Not gonna link it, but oh the irony. Tell us Roxane, why ARE people so awful online?

Yes, I'm actually seriously rethinking my subscription. I just don't trust them at this point.

(Don’t forget Judith Miller, Thomas Friedman’s infamous fawning profile of MBS, the way Bret Stephens and Bari Weiss freak out at people….there’s a lot there.)

[Anonymous]

Dang that Brandon dude’s phony cheer for Dawn’s Tin House piece followed by ripping her on social media four years later — I am a fine art painter and I know I have at least one Brandon in my immediate art community. I keep a polite distance and don’t poke the bear. People like this really creep me out and are such a waste of everyone’s energy.

[Anonymous]