Bad Art Friend

[Anonymous]

I doubt anyone here cares, but this really reminds me of the way canlit blew up over the Stephen Galloway allegations and Marg Atwood, the Queen of Canlit, inititally sided with him, along with a bunch of other Canlit heavyweights, even though he was a creep and a bully to his students.

As an outsider, it was very frustrating watching the way people fawn over MA and face how her action hurt women.

But anyway. I hope the same thing doesn't happen here, with the powerful desperately damping down any criticism to main their power (NYT, etc). Good luck, guys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

Man, I used to be part of a community like this. Creative community, people very "online". People were publicly suuuuuper supportive of one another and also self congratulatory about it. It was very normal for me to see FB posts like "Wow I just feel so blessed to be a part of such a supportive community -- thanks to all my friends in the [redacted] world for being amazing!" And it would get a billion likes and be a love fest in the comments. I definitely participated in it, too.

But the longer I was there, the more I saw that people were MUCH more negative in person, and would often just totally trash "members of the community" in private. It was almost like a rite of passage. At first everyone would be very rah-rah-we-all-love-each-other, but once you'd been around a while, they'd start with the gossip and dirt. It was disconcerting but also flattering in a weird way (oh wow this person must really trust me to tell me what the really think). It took me a little while, maybe a year, to realize it wasn't about trust at all. It's just that people were gossipy, jealous, competitive, cliquish, and weird. Just a lot of unprocessed insecurity that came out in a billion different unhealthy ways. The loving community vibe was a front. What most people really wanted to do was get together for drinks with their "real" friends after an event, and then talk sh!t until 3am about all the people they'd just been hugging and cheering on earlier in the evening. Every time.

And the way a lot of these folks are reacting now to criticism from outsiders about this culture? The "whatever, everyone does it, the gossip isn't a big deal, I'm sure there's all kinds of offensive stuff in your group chats too" defense? That's how my old artists community would respond to criticism too. There was very little introspection about this behavior and how hurtful it could be, and particularly how it impacted newcomers or people who were vulnerable to this kind of thing (people who were different, who were not socially savvy, very young people, etc.). So much damage was done and the instigators would just shrug or roll their eyes -- too cynical to acknowledge that it doesn't actually have to be this way.

Ugh, ugh, ugh. This whole story is a trauma trigger for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone here cares, but this really reminds me of the way canlit blew up over the Stephen Galloway allegations and Marg Atwood, the Queen of Canlit, inititally sided with him, along with a bunch of other Canlit heavyweights, even though he was a creep and a bully to his students.

As an outsider, it was very frustrating watching the way people fawn over MA and face how her action hurt women.

But anyway. I hope the same thing doesn't happen here, with the powerful desperately damping down any criticism to main their power (NYT, etc). Good luck, guys.

I remember that, and it definitely colored my perception of Margaret Atwood. She doesn't seem to have been impacted by it whatsoever though. I still remember her Tweet about the victim being indigenous, which looking back after the revelations this year about Canada and the residential schools is especially horrific.

Vox did a summary awhile back:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/17/16897404/margaret-atwood-metoo-backlash-steven-galloway-ubc-accountable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

Man, I used to be part of a community like this. Creative community, people very "online". People were publicly suuuuuper supportive of one another and also self congratulatory about it. It was very normal for me to see FB posts like "Wow I just feel so blessed to be a part of such a supportive community -- thanks to all my friends in the [redacted] world for being amazing!" And it would get a billion likes and be a love fest in the comments. I definitely participated in it, too.

But the longer I was there, the more I saw that people were MUCH more negative in person, and would often just totally trash "members of the community" in private. It was almost like a rite of passage. At first everyone would be very rah-rah-we-all-love-each-other, but once you'd been around a while, they'd start with the gossip and dirt. It was disconcerting but also flattering in a weird way (oh wow this person must really trust me to tell me what the really think). It took me a little while, maybe a year, to realize it wasn't about trust at all. It's just that people were gossipy, jealous, competitive, cliquish, and weird. Just a lot of unprocessed insecurity that came out in a billion different unhealthy ways. The loving community vibe was a front. What most people really wanted to do was get together for drinks with their "real" friends after an event, and then talk sh!t until 3am about all the people they'd just been hugging and cheering on earlier in the evening. Every time.

And the way a lot of these folks are reacting now to criticism from outsiders about this culture? The "whatever, everyone does it, the gossip isn't a big deal, I'm sure there's all kinds of offensive stuff in your group chats too" defense? That's how my old artists community would respond to criticism too. There was very little introspection about this behavior and how hurtful it could be, and particularly how it impacted newcomers or people who were vulnerable to this kind of thing (people who were different, who were not socially savvy, very young people, etc.). So much damage was done and the instigators would just shrug or roll their eyes -- too cynical to acknowledge that it doesn't actually have to be this way.

Ugh, ugh, ugh. This whole story is a trauma trigger for me.

I'm sorry, PP. That sounds awful. I hope you are still able to do your art on your own terms.

I honestly don't think I could ever trust a writer workshop program like GrubStreet at this point, and I have done them before. Were the teachers all actually just mocking their students behind their backs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone here cares, but this really reminds me of the way canlit blew up over the Stephen Galloway allegations and Marg Atwood, the Queen of Canlit, inititally sided with him, along with a bunch of other Canlit heavyweights, even though he was a creep and a bully to his students.

As an outsider, it was very frustrating watching the way people fawn over MA and face how her action hurt women.

But anyway. I hope the same thing doesn't happen here, with the powerful desperately damping down any criticism to main their power (NYT, etc). Good luck, guys.

I remember that, and it definitely colored my perception of Margaret Atwood. She doesn't seem to have been impacted by it whatsoever though. I still remember her Tweet about the victim being indigenous, which looking back after the revelations this year about Canada and the residential schools is especially horrific.

Vox did a summary awhile back:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/17/16897404/margaret-atwood-metoo-backlash-steven-galloway-ubc-accountable

Sorry sorry sorry!!! The ACCUSED being indigenous. Ugh, I'm sorry, I rewrote my sentence and missed that. The point in was trying to make was that it was a cynical reference to a really fraught part of Canadian culture and it was wrong of her. But it was NOT the victim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone here cares, but this really reminds me of the way canlit blew up over the Stephen Galloway allegations and Marg Atwood, the Queen of Canlit, inititally sided with him, along with a bunch of other Canlit heavyweights, even though he was a creep and a bully to his students.

As an outsider, it was very frustrating watching the way people fawn over MA and face how her action hurt women.

But anyway. I hope the same thing doesn't happen here, with the powerful desperately damping down any criticism to main their power (NYT, etc). Good luck, guys.

I remember that, and it definitely colored my perception of Margaret Atwood. She doesn't seem to have been impacted by it whatsoever though. I still remember her Tweet about the victim being indigenous, which looking back after the revelations this year about Canada and the residential schools is especially horrific.

Vox did a summary awhile back:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/17/16897404/margaret-atwood-metoo-backlash-steven-galloway-ubc-accountable

Good, I'm glad it coloured your perception of her because she has a history of being anti-Indigenous IRL which is carefully swept under the rug in Canada. The guy also wasn't Indigenous and many, many Indigenous people were offended that she thought she could decide, as a white woman, who is and who isn't. Gross. And the fact none of this impacted her and she's still fawned over is an example of teh exact power dynamics at play that I'm talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone here cares, but this really reminds me of the way canlit blew up over the Stephen Galloway allegations and Marg Atwood, the Queen of Canlit, inititally sided with him, along with a bunch of other Canlit heavyweights, even though he was a creep and a bully to his students.

As an outsider, it was very frustrating watching the way people fawn over MA and face how her action hurt women.

But anyway. I hope the same thing doesn't happen here, with the powerful desperately damping down any criticism to main their power (NYT, etc). Good luck, guys.

I remember that, and it definitely colored my perception of Margaret Atwood. She doesn't seem to have been impacted by it whatsoever though. I still remember her Tweet about the victim being indigenous, which looking back after the revelations this year about Canada and the residential schools is especially horrific.

Vox did a summary awhile back:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/17/16897404/margaret-atwood-metoo-backlash-steven-galloway-ubc-accountable

Good, I'm glad it coloured your perception of her because she has a history of being anti-Indigenous IRL which is carefully swept under the rug in Canada. The guy also wasn't Indigenous and many, many Indigenous people were offended that she thought she could decide, as a white woman, who is and who isn't. Gross. And the fact none of this impacted her and she's still fawned over is an example of teh exact power dynamics at play that I'm talking about.

I didn't know that was part of her history, and I also didn't know that he wasn't actually indigenous. That makes it even more awful and exploitative.

And you are right about the power dynamic. I don't think this is going to impact any of the major writers here. Ng, Gay, Kolker, Castellani, Almond, etc. They'll be fine. Larson might not, but she wasn't as powerful to begin with. I'm beginning to believe Larson is something of a victim here too, in that she was egged on and given a pass by the established writers; this could have all been avoided with constructive feedback rather than her just being a tool for providing Ng etc. with vicious entertainment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Clearly an unpopular opinion here, but to me this is an issue of interpersonal meanness versus material harm -- the purposeful sabotaging of a career. Yes they should walk away from each other, absolutely, and they've both behaved poorly, but one of them tried to destroy the other's living! There's just no getting around that.

I don’t think anyone would ever suggest that a man do this. If someone plagiarized a man I think most people would totally be down with a scorched earth response. Women are supposed to be nice and forgive and let things go. Everyone thinks Bobby Axelrod is a bada$$ but I’d be were a woman he’d just be a b***h. Nope - Dawn was totally entitled to seek redress for the professional and personal harm done to her. I wouldn’t have handled it with nearly the restraint and grace that she did. Oh and don’t forget that by minimizing and excluding Dawn they were impacting her ability to advance her career. Cuts both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pp who just posted the AWP, and I thought for sure that it was crazy to say that Ng was somehow really crafting this, but it sounds like there is enough issue in that community, which is pretty sad. I really hope it is a productive conversation.

Eh, it will be the same conversation it always is. These conferences always have lots of panels like this and they are pretty repetitive. People are always talking about furthering the conversation but mostly people just talk in circles.

If that's the case, what a colossal waste of time. If Chee is done with the incessant chatter, then maybe he should tell his pal Larson to take the damn letter out of her story. Then it would quite literally be over.

Agreed. I know people in real life who are friends with Chee. They seem to find him a wonderful person, but I admit his social media presence irritates me. He's a little too self-righteous or something.

I think he doesn't want people discussing this story because it throws too much light on how literary cliques work.

And these are his friends.

How to Be a Writer on Social Media: Advice from Roxane Gay, Alexander Chee, Celeste Ng, and Adam M. Grant
https://lithub.com/how-to-be-a-writer-on-social-media-advice-from-roxane-gay-alexander-chee-celeste-ng-and-adam-m-grant/

GrubStreet conference organized by SL, featuring Alexander Chee (and Jennifer DeLeon)
https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2021/03/h2-write-it

Alexander Chee Praises Everything I Never Told You in The New York Times Book Review
https://www.penguin.com/newsroom/alexander-chee-praises-everything-never-told-new-york-times-book-review/

Writers of Color Roundtable: With Alexander Chee, Jennifer De Leon, Kaitlyn Greenidge, Mira Jacob, Celeste Ng, Regina Brooks, & Emi Ikkanda. At GrubStreet’s Muse & the Marketplace 2016 literary conference, Boston
https://larsonya.com/media/

This is a very tight community. They are annoyed this "scandal" has not blown over by now.

Bunch of racists. If Dawn were only POC the story would be MUCH different.

[Anonymous]

I’ve seen people online criticizing The New Yorker’s decision to have “The Kindest” reviewed by Katy Waldman, because she is White. This is, one assumes, after the critics saw that Waldman included praise for Larson’s non-controversial, not at issue, prize-winning short story, “Gabe Dove.”

Are all PPs sure we’re not actually in the upside down? While I’m not with the PP currently above me, anyone else sick and tired of the shit being thrown exclusively at White women in lit fic when they can’t make a coherent statement as to how it applies in this much more narrow instance? GMAMFB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clearly an unpopular opinion here, but to me this is an issue of interpersonal meanness versus material harm -- the purposeful sabotaging of a career. Yes they should walk away from each other, absolutely, and they've both behaved poorly, but one of them tried to destroy the other's living! There's just no getting around that.

I don’t think anyone would ever suggest that a man do this. If someone plagiarized a man I think most people would totally be down with a scorched earth response. Women are supposed to be nice and forgive and let things go. Everyone thinks Bobby Axelrod is a bada$$ but I’d be were a woman he’d just be a b***h. Nope - Dawn was totally entitled to seek redress for the professional and personal harm done to her. I wouldn’t have handled it with nearly the restraint and grace that she did. Oh and don’t forget that by minimizing and excluding Dawn they were impacting her ability to advance her career. Cuts both ways.

Honestly if that PP hadn't said her opinion was unpopular, I would have assumed she was talking about Larson purposely destroying the career of Dorland.

I can't fathom a world in which the perception is the opposite, given the clear and undisputed factual evidence here. I wish the PP could come back to explain (with cited supporting evidence) why she believes in what looks to me like just a narrative fantasy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, den of vipers sounds about right:

This actually makes me feel sick. This is more psychopathic behavior than even Sonya’s. Wow.

I keep posting the same thing but these people are just sacks of absolute shit. I’ve read portions of Roxane’s work as it was excerpted online and will never purchase. Same for Brandon. Celeste. Christopher. And so forth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rgay/status/1448858207267426305

“Hi this basic White B’s latte traumatized me LOL obv I’m kidding but not really we all detest dumb White broads right all my 850,000 online besties?? Of course I’m not contributing to the Bad Art Friend thing in a chickenshit way I don’t knooooow anyonnnnnnne”

Oh, come on. I'm never going to buy anything from Gay again, but getting upset because she made fun of the pumpkin spice latte crowd is ridiculously oversensitive.

Gay has clearly decided that she is fine instigating nasty mobs on Twitter. Her choice. My choice is to stop buying. But that has nothing to do with Gay Tweeting stupid PSL jokes. Have we really entered a world where PSL jokes are off limits? God, I hope not.

Honestly, yeah, get over yourself. We can inhabit a different we. I’m in the one who is fed the F up with this lazy shit, where White women are the laughing stock of everyone in and cool. You disagree? That’s cool, too. So, yeah, oh. Come on.