What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After reading through all the information, it doesn't sound like they intended to do a day long hike. And if the dog didn't have protection for it's feet, Jonathan probably found himself trying to carry the dog AND the baby. With the scorching temperatures, he reached a point where he simply couldn't go any further. He was probably also developing heat stroke. And that's why he was found in the sitting position with the dog and baby next to him.
Then his wife was also succumbing to heat stroke. I gather they were trying to stick together as a group, but when Jonathan couldn't go any further she ventured ahead to seek help. Maybe due to her health issues she couldn't take the baby with her. By then it was too late. Soon after she also collapsed.
Very heartbreaking and tragic.

I think this is right, and I’ve been posting on this thread since the 3rd page.

At the end, sticking together is what killed them. At a certain point, you need to ditch the “fur baby” if you’re struggling to physically save yourself or a child. I know it’s terrible, but the best course of action was to leave the dog behind tied up in a shady location. That older dog with the heavy fur likely began having trouble first, either thru burned paws or heat exhaustion. I’m willing to bet money on it. They then killed themselves struggling to help the dog.

Had they managed to get back to safety and cell phone reception, they could’ve called the park service and gotten the fire gate unlocked. The rancher could then drive the fire road to rescue the dog.

I think the big story here is that people need to be a lot more careful when taking their pets on outdoor adventures. If something bad happens, you need to face the fact that you may be put in a situation where you will need to sacrifice your animal. This recently happened to a friend of mine who was involved in a sinking sailboat incident off the coast of California - his dog was left on the boat and lost at sea.

+1

+ 1 again...The consensus seems to be zeroing on the heatstroke theory, and there is still speculation about in which order the family passed away. Although we don't know yet, many people have commented on how the dog was likely put under severe strain because of fur, paws, and potentially other factors (age, ingestion of river water w/potential toxins). If the dog started suffering and couldn't walk, the family would have instinctively sought to rescue it, using up their energy, time, etc. and causing them to exert themselves even more under intense conditions.

This is not to wade into the debate about whether it's all right to let a pet die. As the PP is saying, you may be forced to choose between trying (likely unsuccessfully) to save your pet, and saving your own life.
An earlier PP quoted the description of the trail which included something like... "and it is good for dogs." The family might have thought, "great idea--we'd love our dog's companionship on the hike." Yet they may likely have not realized the risks. Even if the above theories end up not being the cause/order of death, the comments about how hard a hike like this is for dogs have been eye-opening for me. It's very risky to take dogs along on things like this. PP, I'm sorry about your friend's dog, but glad your friend survived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

She was only 30’ away. Doesn’t sound like they split up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The heat stroke theory makes the most sense to me. One member of the part gets in severe trouble first, there's some panic about what to do that's probably impacted by the other adult or both adults being on the way to trouble themselves and not being able to think straight or having no good options, and all of them are doomed.

Heat stroke can be really fast. If you want to see it in action, look up Caleb Reynolds on Survivor, which I think you can see on YouTube. He goes from moving around doing intense physical activity for a challenge one second, to being collapsed on the ground the next, unable to move and unresponsive and gasping for air. One of his teammates gives him water but he isn't able to drink and he was beyond that anyway. Prior to that there were zero signs that he was in any kind of trouble. The production team only managed to save his life because they were able to radio for a Medevac chopper and had a skilled medical team and supplies like chilled IV saline and oxygen to keep his vitals from tanking while they waited.

Like a PP, I also thought of the Death Valley Germans. Hopefully here we will be able to get more answers as by the time any sign of the Germans was found, 13 years had passed and most of the clues and remains were gone.

It also made me think of David and Ornella Steiner, a French couple who died at White Sands National Monument a few years ago. They went hiking on a 101-degree day on a trail that was half the length that this family apparently went on, with their 9-year-old son. Ornella started feeling ill and turned around to go back to the car, and collapsed and died on the way. David and the son continued on but then David collapsed as well and from the son's account later had been acting increasingly bizarre and confused himself. The 9-year-old didn't know what to do so stayed with the dad on the side of the trail. Unlike the couple in this story, they were hiking in an area with regular NPS patrols so while both adults died, the rangers managed to find the 9-year-old in time to save him. It turned out later that the parents had been more attentive and careful to their child's water consumption than their own which was probably why he survived.

People underestimate nature all the time and get themselves in big trouble. I think that's probably what happened here as well.

Just read about White Sands. I’m glad there are signs up warning people. But geez all these heat deaths makes me think we should close places like this when the temperature is very high. With big signs warning people of the danger. I hike casually and had no idea about how quickly and severely heat exhaustion can come on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

I don't think they did. According to reports, they have only mentioned the water on the husband. If they split up, she needed the water to finish the last 1.5 miles. Leaving him the water would be suicide.

Well, judging by the results….

It is really puzzling. According to the reports, the pack held about 3L of water. That's not even a gallon. For an 8 mile hike in heat, that seems awfully low. According to experts, your body can absorb about 1L/hour of water.

We will likely never know, but I gather they took the wrong path and went down the switchback. They got to the bottom, realized their mistake, but it was too late at that point. The 1.5 mile hike back up in +100F weather, would be very difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The heat stroke theory makes the most sense to me. One member of the part gets in severe trouble first, there's some panic about what to do that's probably impacted by the other adult or both adults being on the way to trouble themselves and not being able to think straight or having no good options, and all of them are doomed.

Heat stroke can be really fast. If you want to see it in action, look up Caleb Reynolds on Survivor, which I think you can see on YouTube. He goes from moving around doing intense physical activity for a challenge one second, to being collapsed on the ground the next, unable to move and unresponsive and gasping for air. One of his teammates gives him water but he isn't able to drink and he was beyond that anyway. Prior to that there were zero signs that he was in any kind of trouble. The production team only managed to save his life because they were able to radio for a Medevac chopper and had a skilled medical team and supplies like chilled IV saline and oxygen to keep his vitals from tanking while they waited.

Like a PP, I also thought of the Death Valley Germans. Hopefully here we will be able to get more answers as by the time any sign of the Germans was found, 13 years had passed and most of the clues and remains were gone.

It also made me think of David and Ornella Steiner, a French couple who died at White Sands National Monument a few years ago. They went hiking on a 101-degree day on a trail that was half the length that this family apparently went on, with their 9-year-old son. Ornella started feeling ill and turned around to go back to the car, and collapsed and died on the way. David and the son continued on but then David collapsed as well and from the son's account later had been acting increasingly bizarre and confused himself. The 9-year-old didn't know what to do so stayed with the dad on the side of the trail. Unlike the couple in this story, they were hiking in an area with regular NPS patrols so while both adults died, the rangers managed to find the 9-year-old in time to save him. It turned out later that the parents had been more attentive and careful to their child's water consumption than their own which was probably why he survived.

People underestimate nature all the time and get themselves in big trouble. I think that's probably what happened here as well.

Just read about White Sands. I’m glad there are signs up warning people. But geez all these heat deaths makes me think we should close places like this when the temperature is very high. With big signs warning people of the danger. I hike casually and had no idea about how quickly and severely heat exhaustion can come on.

No one else ran across this couple. The vast majority appear to have common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

Would you rather sacrifice your baby or your dog, though?

NP. I am just glad I am not trapped on a sinking boat with most of the posters on DCUM.

They’d be easier to leave behind than my dog.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

I don't think they did. According to reports, they have only mentioned the water on the husband. If they split up, she needed the water to finish the last 1.5 miles. Leaving him the water would be suicide.

Well, judging by the results….

It is really puzzling. According to the reports, the pack held about 3L of water. That's not even a gallon. For an 8 mile hike in heat, that seems awfully low. According to experts, your body can absorb about 1L/hour of water.

We will likely never know, but I gather they took the wrong path and went down the switchback. They got to the bottom, realized their mistake, but it was too late at that point. The 1.5 mile hike back up in +100F weather, would be very difficult.

Which way would they have been meaning to go instead? I’m not familiar with trails and I don’t understand what people mean by the loop… if they hiked all the way down the easy path and turned around right before the switchbacks, wouldn’t they still have had 4 miles in the heat back the way they came?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

I don't think they did. According to reports, they have only mentioned the water on the husband. If they split up, she needed the water to finish the last 1.5 miles. Leaving him the water would be suicide.

We don’t know if they had bottled water in addition to the camelback style bladder set up the dad had. I think if we knew what food and other supplies they had with them, it would help to figure out how long they intended to be out. It also seems like the sherrif’s reported speculation that they may have tried to do the 8 mile loop may not be confirmed. If they just planned to go down part of Savage-Lundy to look for mines and then turned back, they don’t seem nearly so reckless, though I don’t think the dog or baby should have been out in that kind of heat on any length hike. I’m also curious about the extent to which the recent CA forest fires may have degraded the air quality and contributed to their struggles.

They dont' seem like the type that would litter. But, of course, they were probably not thinking straight at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

She was only 30’ away. Doesn’t sound like they split up.

If I was in a life-threatening situation with the love of my life, and our baby, I'd want us to stick together. I'd want us to all work together, help each other, and survive together. I imagine that Ellen Chung felt the same way. (I might be beyond wanting to save the dog at this point, but have given it a try up til a point).

I imagine that at some point when things became desperate and they realized the extreme direness/helplessness of their situation (perhaps she could see her husband was unable to move forward), she made a last attempt to survive (either for herself alone, or also with hope of getting help to her loved ones), and felt she'd have no choice but to go on her own. I imagine that she was very, very reluctant to leave them behind and thus it was only near the very end of her abilities that she reluctantly went forward.

It's extremely poignant to imagine. The love and devotion that they had for each other, which went through the end. Rest in Peace, Chung-Gerrish family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

She was only 30’ away. Doesn’t sound like they split up.

If I was in a life-threatening situation with the love of my life, and our baby, I'd want us to stick together. I'd want us to all work together, help each other, and survive together. I imagine that Ellen Chung felt the same way. (I might be beyond wanting to save the dog at this point, but have given it a try up til a point).

I imagine that at some point when things became desperate and they realized the extreme direness/helplessness of their situation (perhaps she could see her husband was unable to move forward), she made a last attempt to survive (either for herself alone, or also with hope of getting help to her loved ones), and felt she'd have no choice but to go on her own. I imagine that she was very, very reluctant to leave them behind and thus it was only near the very end of her abilities that she reluctantly went forward.

It's extremely poignant to imagine. The love and devotion that they had for each other, which went through the end. Rest in Peace, Chung-Gerrish family.

LOL. The stories you all manufacture in your heads is straight-up NUTS!

WTAF?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

She was only 30’ away. Doesn’t sound like they split up.

If I was in a life-threatening situation with the love of my life, and our baby, I'd want us to stick together. I'd want us to all work together, help each other, and survive together. I imagine that Ellen Chung felt the same way. (I might be beyond wanting to save the dog at this point, but have given it a try up til a point).

I imagine that at some point when things became desperate and they realized the extreme direness/helplessness of their situation (perhaps she could see her husband was unable to move forward), she made a last attempt to survive (either for herself alone, or also with hope of getting help to her loved ones), and felt she'd have no choice but to go on her own. I imagine that she was very, very reluctant to leave them behind and thus it was only near the very end of her abilities that she reluctantly went forward.

It's extremely poignant to imagine. The love and devotion that they had for each other, which went through the end. Rest in Peace, Chung-Gerrish family.

Except they didn't survive together and that's the problem. People keep blaming the dog which could walk even with burning paws and had previously completely three desert hikes itself.

But a 9-month-old plus the baby backpacking kit was an additional 25 pounds of weight in over 100F weather.

Maybe the parents were stupid but that weight is enough to kill a person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

She was only 30’ away. Doesn’t sound like they split up.

If I was in a life-threatening situation with the love of my life, and our baby, I'd want us to stick together. I'd want us to all work together, help each other, and survive together. I imagine that Ellen Chung felt the same way. (I might be beyond wanting to save the dog at this point, but have given it a try up til a point).

I imagine that at some point when things became desperate and they realized the extreme direness/helplessness of their situation (perhaps she could see her husband was unable to move forward), she made a last attempt to survive (either for herself alone, or also with hope of getting help to her loved ones), and felt she'd have no choice but to go on her own. I imagine that she was very, very reluctant to leave them behind and thus it was only near the very end of her abilities that she reluctantly went forward.

It's extremely poignant to imagine. The love and devotion that they had for each other, which went through the end. Rest in Peace, Chung-Gerrish family.

Except they didn't survive together and that's the problem. People keep blaming the dog which could walk even with burning paws and had previously completely three desert hikes itself.

But a 9-month-old plus the baby backpacking kit was an additional 25 pounds of weight in over 100F weather.

Maybe the parents were stupid but that weight is enough to kill a person.

I'm the PP you quoted. I know they didn't survive together...I don't get your meaning. I was trying to address the issue of why they weren't found together, but weren't really found that far apart, either.
My theory was that it could have been a very late-in-the-game choice for the husband and wife to split up. I can't tell if you're saying that it's my theory that's a problem, or that the outcome of their actions --if my theory were true--that was a problem, e.g., that they shouldn't have tried to stay together at all.

To the other, scoffing PP: I don't think it's too far-fetched to imagine --which I clearly stated it was...imagining--how a young, in love couple would try to survive together.

[Anonymous]

I understand why it's being proposed but the heat stroke theory doesn't ring true to me. All dropped dead within feet of each other? If one was in distress, wouldn't everyone stop and rest? Wouldn't the dog have run on? Just doesn't make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The heat stroke theory makes the most sense to me. One member of the part gets in severe trouble first, there's some panic about what to do that's probably impacted by the other adult or both adults being on the way to trouble themselves and not being able to think straight or having no good options, and all of them are doomed.

Heat stroke can be really fast. If you want to see it in action, look up Caleb Reynolds on Survivor, which I think you can see on YouTube. He goes from moving around doing intense physical activity for a challenge one second, to being collapsed on the ground the next, unable to move and unresponsive and gasping for air. One of his teammates gives him water but he isn't able to drink and he was beyond that anyway. Prior to that there were zero signs that he was in any kind of trouble. The production team only managed to save his life because they were able to radio for a Medevac chopper and had a skilled medical team and supplies like chilled IV saline and oxygen to keep his vitals from tanking while they waited.

Like a PP, I also thought of the Death Valley Germans. Hopefully here we will be able to get more answers as by the time any sign of the Germans was found, 13 years had passed and most of the clues and remains were gone.

It also made me think of David and Ornella Steiner, a French couple who died at White Sands National Monument a few years ago. They went hiking on a 101-degree day on a trail that was half the length that this family apparently went on, with their 9-year-old son. Ornella started feeling ill and turned around to go back to the car, and collapsed and died on the way. David and the son continued on but then David collapsed as well and from the son's account later had been acting increasingly bizarre and confused himself. The 9-year-old didn't know what to do so stayed with the dad on the side of the trail. Unlike the couple in this story, they were hiking in an area with regular NPS patrols so while both adults died, the rangers managed to find the 9-year-old in time to save him. It turned out later that the parents had been more attentive and careful to their child's water consumption than their own which was probably why he survived.

People underestimate nature all the time and get themselves in big trouble. I think that's probably what happened here as well.

Just read about White Sands. I’m glad there are signs up warning people. But geez all these heat deaths makes me think we should close places like this when the temperature is very high. With big signs warning people of the danger. I hike casually and had no idea about how quickly and severely heat exhaustion can come on.

You could close all the trails and mandate everyone wear helmets and wrap themselves in bubble wrap at all times and some people are still going to find ways to endanger or kill themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may not have realized how close they were to hearstroke/death while they were trying to save the dog as well. Maybe if they did they would have acted differently but maybe not. Dogs have become like humans to many of us.

+1

I would never leave my dog behind to die alone.

Darwinism for dog owners.

I’d rather die with my dog than live with sh1theads like you.

You'd risk your baby's life to save a dog?

I wouldn’t leave the dog out tied up alone. Parents could split up.

Seems like they did. It didn’t work.

She was only 30’ away. Doesn’t sound like they split up.

If I was in a life-threatening situation with the love of my life, and our baby, I'd want us to stick together. I'd want us to all work together, help each other, and survive together. I imagine that Ellen Chung felt the same way. (I might be beyond wanting to save the dog at this point, but have given it a try up til a point).

I imagine that at some point when things became desperate and they realized the extreme direness/helplessness of their situation (perhaps she could see her husband was unable to move forward), she made a last attempt to survive (either for herself alone, or also with hope of getting help to her loved ones), and felt she'd have no choice but to go on her own. I imagine that she was very, very reluctant to leave them behind and thus it was only near the very end of her abilities that she reluctantly went forward.

It's extremely poignant to imagine. The love and devotion that they had for each other, which went through the end. Rest in Peace, Chung-Gerrish family.

Except they didn't survive together and that's the problem. People keep blaming the dog which could walk even with burning paws and had previously completely three desert hikes itself.

But a 9-month-old plus the baby backpacking kit was an additional 25 pounds of weight in over 100F weather.

Maybe the parents were stupid but that weight is enough to kill a person.

I'm the PP you quoted. I know they didn't survive together...I don't get your meaning. I was trying to address the issue of why they weren't found together, but weren't really found that far apart, either.
My theory was that it could have been a very late-in-the-game choice for the husband and wife to split up. I can't tell if you're saying that it's my theory that's a problem, or that the outcome of their actions --if my theory were true--that was a problem, e.g., that they shouldn't have tried to stay together at all.

To the other, scoffing PP: I don't think it's too far-fetched to imagine --which I clearly stated it was...imagining--how a young, in love couple would try to survive together.

It’s 100% fantasy.

They could have easily been arguing the whole hike, right up to the end.