Why is it MCPS policy to not share discipline measures of other kids?

[Anonymous]

So, we had a minor conflict or issue with DD and another girl at school last week. I reached out to the teacher via email and was told they would address it and was reminded: "I will not be able to share with you how other students are being disciplined, per MCPS policy."

And it strikes me as really wrongheaded. Part of making kids feel whole when there's a conflict is knowing that consequences (hopefully just and fair ones) are being doled out for the parties involved. A victim of a crime gets to know if their assaulter is sentenced.

So how and why did MCPS get to a place where the parents of a child who's being bullied or harassed don't have the ability to reassure their child that the bully or antagonist is being appropriately punished? Who's idea was this?

[Anonymous]

It is an incredibly common and normal policy. It is also true in the vast majority of workplaces.

If your kid gets in a fight with another child at the playground, is the other parent entitled to demand that you tell them the consequences/punishment you imposed?
If a coworker insults/bullies you in the workplace, are you entitled to know exactly what consequences were imposed?

No. Because the real world doesn't operate that way. It is the responsibility if the organization to create and keep a safe environment. Nobody that was the "victim" needs to know how they do that, just that the environment is safe.

[Anonymous]

Privacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is an incredibly common and normal policy. It is also true in the vast majority of workplaces.

If your kid gets in a fight with another child at the playground, is the other parent entitled to demand that you tell them the consequences/punishment you imposed?
If a coworker insults/bullies you in the workplace, are you entitled to know exactly what consequences were imposed?

No. Because the real world doesn't operate that way. It is the responsibility if the organization to create and keep a safe environment. Nobody that was the "victim" needs to know how they do that, just that the environment is safe.

In the real world, if I commit a crime, the punishment is not kept a secret.

Also, I have no idea how you assure the victim the environment is safe without detailing the consequences for those violate the rules of said environment. Why should you believe them?

[Anonymous]

It would be akin to sharing the other student's confidential education records.

[Anonymous]

Why does it matter? Tell your child to focus on himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is an incredibly common and normal policy. It is also true in the vast majority of workplaces.

If your kid gets in a fight with another child at the playground, is the other parent entitled to demand that you tell them the consequences/punishment you imposed?
If a coworker insults/bullies you in the workplace, are you entitled to know exactly what consequences were imposed?

No. Because the real world doesn't operate that way. It is the responsibility if the organization to create and keep a safe environment. Nobody that was the "victim" needs to know how they do that, just that the environment is safe.

In the real world, if I commit a crime, the punishment is not kept a secret.

Also, I have no idea how you assure the victim the environment is safe without detailing the consequences for those violate the rules of said environment. Why should you believe them?

Yes, actual crimes are public.

Every single other type of way in which a person can be wronged is not. If one student commits a felony assault, the victim gets to know. Otherwise, no.

[Anonymous]

OP, it is because of privacy issues but I agree that there is some degree to which the privacy is counterproductive. My DD had significant conflict with a boy in her class last year and her perception was that there were no consequences to the boy for his behavior, which just made my DD feel like the school wasn't protecting her. Had they been able to tell her some of what they were doing, she would have at least felt like they were trying.

It is similar to how the school will call to tell you about an incident with another child but not tell you who the other child is. My kids are older now and can tell me, but in most cases by time you get to upper elementary school, the identity of the other child really matters to the context of what happened. If the school isn't going to tell me the full story, don't bother calling me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is an incredibly common and normal policy. It is also true in the vast majority of workplaces.

If your kid gets in a fight with another child at the playground, is the other parent entitled to demand that you tell them the consequences/punishment you imposed?
If a coworker insults/bullies you in the workplace, are you entitled to know exactly what consequences were imposed?

No. Because the real world doesn't operate that way. It is the responsibility if the organization to create and keep a safe environment. Nobody that was the "victim" needs to know how they do that, just that the environment is safe.

In the real world, if I commit a crime, the punishment is not kept a secret.

Also, I have no idea how you assure the victim the environment is safe without detailing the consequences for those violate the rules of said environment. Why should you believe them?

If you are a juvenile, it is not public information, even in the court system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It would be akin to sharing the other student's confidential education records.

and sharing personal educational records, even disciplinary records or information, is against federal law - FERPA.

[Anonymous]

Because your definition of just and fair may not be the same as the school's. They have more information about the child's situation than you do. It's possible the child was suspended due to repeated offenses. As a parent I don't think suspension really helps so I might think that's "fair." If you're the parent it sounds like you might want something severe like that but if the school instead just gave out a detention you might be creating more trouble for everyone.

It's best that you don't know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, it is because of privacy issues but I agree that there is some degree to which the privacy is counterproductive. My DD had significant conflict with a boy in her class last year and her perception was that there were no consequences to the boy for his behavior, which just made my DD feel like the school wasn't protecting her. Had they been able to tell her some of what they were doing, she would have at least felt like they were trying.

It is similar to how the school will call to tell you about an incident with another child but not tell you who the other child is. My kids are older now and can tell me, but in most cases by time you get to upper elementary school, the identity of the other child really matters to the context of what happened. If the school isn't going to tell me the full story, don't bother calling me.

OP here. Yes, my daughter basically believes there's no consequence for bad behavior at the school, which is heartbreaking. I asked her why she didn't tell her teacher about the incident, she said "They don't do anything about it."

I'm not expecting the discipline of the offending child to be printed on posterboard and hung in the hallways, but for the two parties involved, the victim and the offender, being transparent about the outcomes and consequences provides closure. Which is very needed for holistic and effective conflict resolution.

Instead, you get hand wavy, "The environment is safe" mumbo jumbo with no specifics that no one, not the kids or the parents, really believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because your definition of just and fair may not be the same as the school's. They have more information about the child's situation than you do. It's possible the child was suspended due to repeated offenses. As a parent I don't think suspension really helps so I might think that's "fair." If you're the parent it sounds like you might want something severe like that but if the school instead just gave out a detention you might be creating more trouble for everyone.

It's best that you don't know.

OP here, this I can somewhat understand.

In this instance, I would be fine with lunch detention. The girl threatened and kicked my daughter. But you're right, some parents would want more and you can't leave that kind of decision up to the parents.

Which is why there should be a standard escalation that they can share:

I would expect something like this:

"Since this is the 1st offensive interaction with Mary and your daughter, we're going to pull her aside, call her parents and give her lunch detention. If the behavior persists, we'll then escalate it to in-school suspension, and if that doesn't work, then we'll look at removing her from the classroom."

Doesn't have to be those specific punishments and in that order, but that kind of specific action, escalation path and clarity would give reassurance to my daughter and other kids who are the receiving end of bad behavior at school. She would know and see that the kid who is making school uncomfortable for her won't just get away with it forever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because your definition of just and fair may not be the same as the school's. They have more information about the child's situation than you do. It's possible the child was suspended due to repeated offenses. As a parent I don't think suspension really helps so I might think that's "fair." If you're the parent it sounds like you might want something severe like that but if the school instead just gave out a detention you might be creating more trouble for everyone.

It's best that you don't know.

OP here, this I can somewhat understand.

In this instance, I would be fine with lunch detention. The girl threatened and kicked my daughter. But you're right, some parents would want more and you can't leave that kind of decision up to the parents.

Which is why there should be a standard escalation that they can share:

I would expect something like this:

"Since this is the 1st offensive interaction with Mary and your daughter, we're going to pull her aside, call her parents and give her lunch detention. If the behavior persists, we'll then escalate it to in-school suspension, and if that doesn't work, then we'll look at removing her from the classroom."

Doesn't have to be those specific punishments and in that order, but that kind of specific action, escalation path and clarity would give reassurance to my daughter and other kids who are the receiving end of bad behavior at school. She would know and see that the kid who is making school uncomfortable for her won't just get away with it forever.

I don’t think they look at discipline in isolation like that. There may be other considerations, such as prior behavior with other kids or a disability/IEP (which may not mean no discipline, but may change it). Also, it’s likely that telling the affected kid —> many kids knowing. It’s part of their educational record, so it’s private. Last, discipline does not mean that the kid won’t do something else, so knowing does not solve the problem of wondering if the school is safe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it is because of privacy issues but I agree that there is some degree to which the privacy is counterproductive. My DD had significant conflict with a boy in her class last year and her perception was that there were no consequences to the boy for his behavior, which just made my DD feel like the school wasn't protecting her. Had they been able to tell her some of what they were doing, she would have at least felt like they were trying.

It is similar to how the school will call to tell you about an incident with another child but not tell you who the other child is. My kids are older now and can tell me, but in most cases by time you get to upper elementary school, the identity of the other child really matters to the context of what happened. If the school isn't going to tell me the full story, don't bother calling me.

OP here. Yes, my daughter basically believes there's no consequence for bad behavior at the school, which is heartbreaking. I asked her why she didn't tell her teacher about the incident, she said "They don't do anything about it."

I'm not expecting the discipline of the offending child to be printed on posterboard and hung in the hallways, but for the two parties involved, the victim and the offender, being transparent about the outcomes and consequences provides closure. Which is very needed for holistic and effective conflict resolution.

Instead, you get hand wavy, "The environment is safe" mumbo jumbo with no specifics that no one, not the kids or the parents, really believe.

This is kind of true in MCPS though. She’s not wrong.

Our ES has had some crazy (NOT minor) issues with behaviors. We had one kid essentially assault another kid. One who punched a teacher in the stomach. One who threw a trash can. All the kids were back in class that same day.

I agree that MCPS should do a better job with discipline and that MCPS should be more transparent about what the consequences are for poor behavior.

Unfortunately, the reality is that there are very few consequences for poor behavior. Which might be why they choose not to share. The kids learn that early and you will see the behavior continue to get worse as your child progresses through MS.