A complete and total repudiation of all the people who bleat "calories in, calories out"

[Anonymous]

The top obesity researchers in the world:

The three-day meeting was infused with an implicit understanding of what obesity is not: a personal failing. No presenter argued that humans collectively lost willpower around the 1980s, when obesity rates took off, first in high-income countries‌, then in much of the rest of the world. Not a single scientist said our genes changed in that short time. Laziness, gluttony‌‌ and sloth were not referred to as obesity’s helpers. In stark contrast to a prevailing societal view of obesity, which assumes people have full control over their body size, they didn’t blame individuals for their condition, the same way we don’t blame people suffering from undernutrition challenges, like stunting and wasting.

The researchers instead referred to obesity as a complex, chronic condition, and they were meeting to get to the bottom of why humans have, collectively, grown larger over the past half century. To that end, they shared a range of mechanisms that might explain the global obesity surge. And their theories, however diverse, made one thing obvious: As long as we treat obesity as a personal responsibility issue, its prevalence is unlikely to decline.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/opinion/obesity-cause.html

[Anonymous]

This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

[Anonymous]

I saw an excellent series of talks from Dr Robert Lustig where he drove home the point that biochemistry drives behavior and any solution that doesn’t start from this basic reality will fail. (Eg, teens sent to highly controlled “fat camp” environments will lose weight and then gain it all back as soon as they leave)

He also explained in great chemical detail why sugar is processed the same way in the liver as alcohol and causes the same pathologies… there is functionally no difference between alcoholic and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, from a biological perspective. That was a pretty shocking wake up to someone who’s always been thin but has a definite sweet tooth!

[Anonymous]

It's been definitively linked to a virus. I'm surprised that wasn't discussed at the meeting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

I mean yes, this is true from a physics perspective, but utterly worthless as a solution since the “why” of the “calories in” part is the difficulty

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

I mean yes, this is true from a physics perspective, but utterly worthless as a solution since the “why” of the “calories in” part is the difficulty

On a broad scale, yes. We cannot encourage people to make healthier choices by shouting “calories in, calories out” from the rooftops. At a personal level? It might be useful, depending on what your goals are. Personally, I think that instead of saying “calories in, calories out” is false, we should say “forget weight, focus on health.” But if people want to lose weight that’s not my business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

I mean yes, this is true from a physics perspective, but utterly worthless as a solution since the “why” of the “calories in” part is the difficulty

NP - exactly. We need to focus more on sociology and individual biology and less on physics. There's just too much individual variability for CICO to be particularly useful.

[Anonymous]

If medieval peasants could get their hands on my delicious calorie filled breakfast yesterday, they would have eaten every delicious fatty bite.

You know why I didn’t do that? Saxenda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

I mean yes, this is true from a physics perspective, but utterly worthless as a solution since the “why” of the “calories in” part is the difficulty

On a broad scale, yes. We cannot encourage people to make healthier choices by shouting “calories in, calories out” from the rooftops. At a personal level? It might be useful, depending on what your goals are. Personally, I think that instead of saying “calories in, calories out” is false, we should say “forget weight, focus on health.” But if people want to lose weight that’s not my business.

Fat and health are inextricably linked. If you want to say don't focus on weight if you have lean muscle, that's one thing, but it's very hard to have a high percentage of body fat and to be healthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

You alluded to the public health issue, but I think it’s important to hit it square on - millions of people don’t have access to fresh food because they lack reliable transportation to a place where fresh food is sold. Fresh food is more expensive, less available, and takes knowledge and time to prepare. Processed food is high in calories, easy to obtain, inexpensive, shelf stable, and often marketed toward people who have ready access to it and not to foods that are more nutrient dense. Plus, you know, corporate agriculture, food lobby, politics…

It is not just about motivation or desire to “eat better.” There are massive systemic inequities at play, that have been at play for decades - several generations in some families.

[Anonymous]

So…CICO works, but it’s too tough to implement for most people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

I mean yes, this is true from a physics perspective, but utterly worthless as a solution since the “why” of the “calories in” part is the difficulty

On a broad scale, yes. We cannot encourage people to make healthier choices by shouting “calories in, calories out” from the rooftops. At a personal level? It might be useful, depending on what your goals are. Personally, I think that instead of saying “calories in, calories out” is false, we should say “forget weight, focus on health.” But if people want to lose weight that’s not my business.

Fat and health are inextricably linked. If you want to say don't focus on weight if you have lean muscle, that's one thing, but it's very hard to have a high percentage of body fat and to be healthy.

But it might be harder to lose weight.

Sleep well, manage stress, don’t smoke, don’t drink, get some physical activity, and eat vegetables and you’re going to be healthier than the vast majority of Americans, regardless of your weight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If medieval peasants could get their hands on my delicious calorie filled breakfast yesterday, they would have eaten every delicious fatty bite.

You know why I didn’t do that? Saxenda.

Yeah, obesity took off in the 80s bc terrible, processed, fatty high calorie foods became more mainstream, cheap, and easily attainable. From there on, those foods have become more and more prominent in grocery stores, fast food chains, fast casual etc. If the the starving peasants had access to Door Dash, Uber Eats, you better believe they would be eating McDs and a fat Qboda burrito instead of simmering a ham hock and turnips in a cast iron pot all day.

Processed junk food has taken over, snack foods have taken over, ready-made foods have taken over. If someone can get tasty food for cheap and do very little work for it- regardless of if it is good for them, they will pick that 9/10 times over actually grocery shopping and cooking themselves something heathy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn’t exactly repúdiate calories in v. calories out.

Usually people who use that phrase are being ridiculously smug and dismissive. But that doesn’t change the fact that except in rare cases, wright gain means that we have consumed more calories than we burned (and the calories that we burned means what we burn at rest v what we burn when we move).

Of course, a lot goes into this. Some burn fewer calories when they rest. Some are born with naturally bigger bodies. Some have genetics that make them hungrier. Some have psychological problems (including those caused by fat-shaming) that make them turn to food for comfort. Some are going to be naturally more inclined to eat donuts. Some have not been taught the value of nutrition or how to obtain and cook healthier food. Some people just do not have the time or energy to exercise, prepare good food, and Change habits. Some people have health issues that make it impossible for them to eat a lot of healthy foods (that’s me!).

But calories in/calories out is a good rule of thumb.

Although, perhaps the better rule of thumb is to just do the best you can for your health and not worry about weight because you can still be healthy at any size.

You alluded to the public health issue, but I think it’s important to hit it square on - millions of people don’t have access to fresh food because they lack reliable transportation to a place where fresh food is sold. Fresh food is more expensive, less available, and takes knowledge and time to prepare. Processed food is high in calories, easy to obtain, inexpensive, shelf stable, and often marketed toward people who have ready access to it and not to foods that are more nutrient dense. Plus, you know, corporate agriculture, food lobby, politics…

It is not just about motivation or desire to “eat better.” There are massive systemic inequities at play, that have been at play for decades - several generations in some families.

Yes but I still don’t think it’s useful to say CICO is a sham because it’s not. The things your talking about are more important and accurate.

[Anonymous]

CICO is literally just basic thermodynamics. You can't refute it. Obesity is "complex," as noted by these "experts" because of the numerous mental and physiological problems that lead people to overconsume calories. The calories themselves are quite simple.