Reza Aslan: Sam Harris and "New Atheists" aren't new, aren't even atheists
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Anonymous
^ So speaking of anti-theists, what good would it do me to try to talk someone like this out of their beliefs, or argue they're deluded? None whatsoever. I can respect that you came to these beliefs as an adult. I do not like the indoctrination of children however. That just seems wrong to me. I try to tell my kids how to think, not what to think. Not surprisingly they aren't religious, even though spouse goes to church every Sunday. |
Anonymous
Most children that are raised in religion are raised in a religious belief system that their parents have embraced. Parents raise their children as they feel is right, and that is the right of the parents to do so. Many parents feel it is their responsibility to give their child a religious foundation and although you have a different view of that, it’s not your business to judge how people raise their children. Every parent or couple decides how they will raise their child and it’s not my business or yours how they decide to raise their own child. Religious parents know that their child may or may not continue to accept the religion of their childhood. Religious parents know their child could change their religious views, find and accept other religious views, stop believing in religion, fall away and come back to religion, etc. Unless the parents physically keep their adult child within the home (weird) and limit all contact with the world, they are not able to control the life of of their child into adulthood. Even the extremely religious Amish, a very insular culture and population, have those raised Amish leave their religion and community. I lived in Afghanistan for a period of time and was moved by a child who was without clothing. For close to a year I observed this small boy, who was about 3, live without clothing and I was shocked and heartbroken for the child, even though he seemed fine with it. I approached a trusted friend who knew more about local customs and culture than I did, and asked if it would be ok for me to provide the child with some clothing? Because we were in a highly religious and rural community, my friend advised me to not do anything of the sort for this child. His family and tribe did not wear western clothing and would not like this child wearing western clothing. I refrained from giving the child clothing. This happened in 2008. I understand you raised your children as you consider proper, and urge you to understand other parents do the same. Everyone does their best to raise their children as they see fit. You can call it anything you want, but have no right to have people raise their kids as you like. Can you imagine if a stranger came to you and told you you were raising you children “wrong” and that they must be given a certain religious belief when they were young? Or demanded you feed them a specific diet, etc? You’d tell them to step off, your children are yours and you raise them with love and care, etc. You basically are taking that right away from parents, or spend time and energy wishing you could do so, when you have an expectation that they should raise their children as you want them to and call their child raising “indoctrination.” |
Anonymous
Ok, So now it's obvious that you are never going to get it, but hopefully others -- non-apologists-- will understand after receiving so much information and seeing your numerous responses. You seem like a good person, though misguided regarding religion. and, as you seem to know, children will go their own way when they are adults. |
Anonymous
People can make their own decisions about religion and take or leave anything people type online, including about what I type online. I have zero need to label myself according to the opinions of other people. I honestly represent my beliefs and have no worries about that issue. I am certainly not misguided about what I believe. People who represent themselves as atheist but are actually anti-theist are deliberately trying to confuse others, and people who do so are disingenuous. Atheists don’t believe in gods or God. Anti-theists believe religion is harmful. They may even believe God or gods exist, but think religion and Gods or gods have no redeeming qualities or no positive impact at all on people or the world in general. Christian apologists are a thing, but those people usually attend a dedicated program of education devoted to the subject and feel it is their mission in life is to mount a vigorous defense of Christianity. That’s not me. I did attend a religious college and have studied the Bible, but have never attended any courses that instruct believers to be apologists. I don’t have a degree in theology. I have done mission work abroad and it has been in the field of medicine. Any mission work I have done has been first and foremost, medical care to other people. Incorporation of the love I feel from God and the love Jesus Christ exhorts us to feel for our fellow man is inseparable from any care I provide to any person I treat, though. You are too much into defining others by your definitions and don’t have the personal knowledge and information you need to do so. |
Anonymous
And you have shown, via your writing, that you're a Christian apologist who does not understand the terminology or who doesn't want to. It doesn't matter, really. You are happy and seem harmless and perhaps feel that your religious beliefs inspire you to help others in need. Atheists and anti-theists and "nones" can help people in need without being religious, which I assume you are aware of. |
Anonymous
You are correct; it doesn’t matter what term you’d like to define me by. I know my religious beliefs inspire me to help others. It makes me neither better than others nor superior, people do what they feel is necessary to live as they wish. Mark 12:41-44 New International Version The Widow’s Offering(A) 41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put(B) and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents. 43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”(C) This is what I believe, and I didn’t need to attend a course to teach me to believe this or defend or apologize or promote this in my life or the world. I know atheists and anti- theists have the ability to help others, and many do. However, a basic lack of respect for others and the thoughts of others seems intrinsic within their communities. I see it displayed here daily. Also, people who excuse the murder of hundreds of millions of people through communism, which mandates atheism to those who live often against their will under such regimes aren’t societies that allow for the freedom of the human spirit, to put it mildly, or the pattern of helping those in need. They actively torture and kill their own helpless population and as in the case of Pol Pot, went to great lengths of keep such actions from being known to others. The acts of extreme violence in the Bible are from antiquity. They are documented for all to read and learn from. The acts of genocide, mass murder, the bashing of children against trees, the famines and government engineered starvations (all occurring in the modern era and under atheistic-communist governments) are completely ignored by atheist apologists. They won’t even consider those well documented events that occurred under the hand of people who share their atheism. It’s a trip. I can say Christianity began at a time when societies and cultures and religions were very primal, and religion even harmful to its adherents, as human and child sacrifice and ritualistic sex cults were prominent. God took decades and centuries to teach humans that that kind of worship was no longer required of humanity. It was a painful and bloody and imperfect process, yet necessary, to get from there to here. Communism and atheism, as they co-exist and are mandated to exist together by atheistic communist governments and regimes, do not exist in antiquity, they exist and have existed in modernity. They have no belief in the value of the individual or the life of the individual. They have no hesitation to starve or execute their own people through extreme acts of violence. They create mass graves of their innocent people and huge prison camps of families who will exist in agony and die before they should and not a single atheist confronts that reality, that they share a thought process with such monsters. If Christianity existed today as it existed in the Old Testament and in antiquity, it would not be the most populous religion in the world. And it doesn’t have to exist as it did in antiquity, because God was moving toward a better way of life for those who He created. The countries and societies that exist under the dual yoke of communism and atheism in the modern world are societies we fear and we abhor. They are brutal and bloody. The nations that embrace the principles of Christian thought are places people are glad and happy to live and fight to get into and make a life for their children under the protection of. I challenge all those who embrace atheism and anti- theism to live in a country controlled by atheists. Then tell me the Bible and God are harmful to society and humanity. |
Anonymous
I live in the USA, founded as a secular country, with freedom of religion. In my view and in the view of the founders, no one religion - or non-religion -- should rule a country. This is not a Christian nation and was not founded as one. No religion, no matter how "good" should rule a country. Christians -- and people of other religions -- have been extraordinarily cruel to their citizens, and to any who disagree with them. |
Anonymous
Yet not a word about atheistic-communist countries? Why not live in a society that mandates atheism? You would not have to deal with religion whatsoever. |
Anonymous
Not a word, because I live in a secular country -- as presumably you do too. I don't have a problem with other people's religion as long as it's not forced on me. No religious or non-religious mandates of any kind. People can believe what they want as long as they don't force others to believe the same or penalize those who do not believe. Unfortunately, in the US right now, there are fundamentalist Christians who think this is a "Christian nation". It is not and never has been. |
Anonymous
Since the first English settlements in North America, Christianity and its sacred text have had a significant influence on American jurisprudence. Surely you agree with that fact? Why not live in a place that is completely free of the influence of Christianity? |
Anonymous
I am aware that the english settlements were Christian-based. Learned it in grade school. I believe in freedom of religion, as do many people and as is a founding principle of our country. I'm not interested in being free of the influence of any religion -- there is great art and music associated with many religions, especially Christianity. I'm happy as long as religion does not limit my freedoms. How about you? Would you prefer to live in a Christian country? If so, why? If not, Why not? |
Anonymous
upload pictures to website I definitely would not want to live in a country that mandated state atheism, and it seems that even though many are avoiding answering the question, neither would anyone here. I am fine with living in the US because we enjoy much more freedom and a better qol than atheist mandated states. While the U.S. Constitution does not mention God, every state constitution references either God or the divine. God also appears in the Declaration of Independence, the Pledge of Allegiance and on U.S. currency. Congress has always been overwhelmingly Christian, and roughly nine-in-ten representatives (88%) in the current Congress identify as Christian, according to a 2019 analysis. While the number of self-identified Christians in Congress ticked down in the last election, Christians as a whole – and especially Protestants and Catholics – are still overrepresented on Capitol Hill relative to their share of the U.S. population. Almost all U.S. presidents, including Donald Trump, have been Christian, and many have identified as either Episcopalian or Presbyterian. But two of the most famous presidents, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, had no formal religious affiliation. Most U.S. presidents have been sworn in with a Bible, and they traditionally seal their oath of office with “so help me God.” Americans are divided on the extent to which the country’s laws should reflect Bible teachings. Roughly half of U.S. adults say the Bible should influence U.S. laws either a great deal (23%) or some (26%), and more than a quarter (28%) say the Bible should prevail over the will of the people if the two are at odds, according to the February survey. And yes, basic Christian faith held that God created the world, established certain moral laws, and that breaking these laws could lead to suffering and punishment. U.S. criminal laws derived from those moral standards and set punishments for breaking them. So although I think that it is proper we have no state religion, it’s good Christianity holds a place in our government. |
Anonymous
As I asked before, Would you prefer to live in a Christian country? If so, why? If not, Why not? |
Anonymous
No the country I love is one that is explicitly not a Christian country: The best country on the planet, the United States of America. |
Anonymous
+1 'As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.' Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 |