Washington Post Contributor Believed Killed by Saudi Arabia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The White House failed in a basic duty to inform; and all because Jared and Donald took a boatload of money from KSA to look the other way, to allow Russia to install nuclear capabilities in the region and as a bulwark to Iran.

Absolutely shameful. I hope the Senate passes Magnisky Act sanctions against KSA and put Trump and Kushner on a proverbial box (which is better than the actual box the Journalist is in)

What? In what way does the White House have a duty to inform? Inform whom?

Also, do get off the soapbox. Obama didn't take any money from KSA but that didn't really motivate him to speak up when the Saudis were imprisoning and executing opposition leaders.

“If any U.S. agencies did have foreknowledge of a potential Saudi plan to kidnap, kill, or maim Khashoggi, they had an obligation to warn him.

“Intelligence Community Directive 191—titled “Duty to Warn”—obligates U.S. intelligence agencies to inform...

See section H3 (page 4) https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICD/ICD_191.pdf

What did the IC know and what, if anything did they do about it and what, if anything, did the White House do to quash it?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
You seem very eager to excuse this likely murder. The US has arrested American who spied for Israel. We didn’t chop them up into little pieces. Everyone should be outraged if this is what the Saudis did. That includes you.

When did KSA promise to behave exactly like America?

On the outrage, leaving aside the very curious attempt to dictate the feelings to perfect strangers...Khashoggi excused the regime chopping the heads of its opponents who called for political reforms inside the country. Now I am supposed to weep when HE got chopped up? Who kissed the royal bottom for years? Who ate from the hands of Al-Saud all his life? What's up with the clumsy attempt to package him as a lifelong reformer, instead of a lifelong government loyalist who either bet on the wrong prince or got too big for his britches?

Lie with the dogs, wake up with fleas.

Most Americans oppose the death penalty for expressing views, regardless of how horrendous those views may be. I'm sorry that you are in the minority that believes otherwise.

Most Saudis probably don’t. Geez, Jeff, how Eurocentric and imperialistic for you to impose your white American values on a totally different culture! I thought you were a liberal

I'm happy to impose the value of free expression on anyone. But more to the point, I am an American posting on a website whose audience is 99 percent American. Khashoggi was a US resident and the US has an interest in his fate. I'm surprised to find Saudi apologists here.

I don't know if it's as much as Saudi apologists as pragmatism. The people you seem to allege as being apologists are the ones pointing out the badasses in the House of Saud and the risks of crossing paths with them. That doesn't sound like apologising for Saudi to me. Everyone on this thread seems to mutually agree that the Saudis are terrible.

I looked up Khashoggi and from what I can tell he fled Saudi in 2017. He might have been living in the US at various points but he was not American. He was firmly a Saudi. He knew the rules, as anyone who's lived in the Gulf would know. You do not badmouth your country or tribe or ruler or politics in public, and not in the way he did. All bets are off when you do so. Trying to claim the virtues of Western liberalism while still still keeping a foot firmly in the world of 15th century tribal politics is pushing it a bit too far.

I am not without sympathy over the potentially brutal death of a man, but as others have pointed out, he doubtlessly knew the risks and what he was doing.

Posted from Doha. Another apologist.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to imply with that comment.

Surely even you know that Saudi and Qatar are now embroiled in a bitter diplomatic situation that has Qatar embargoed by Saudi. There is no love among Qataris for Saudi and particularly the current Saudi leadership, who they blame as primarily responsible for the embargo which began with the intent of overthrowing the Qatari sheikh Hamad al Thani. So why would someone in Qatar be apologising or defending Saudi?

That aside, it is also very possible that someone may be currently in Qatar as an American expat with no particular stakes in the situation but merely an interested observer who likes to munch on popcorn while watching the local kingdoms and their tinpot kings and royal families squabble with each other over meaningless things. If it makes me an apologist to point out the dangers of allying yourself too closely with the local ruling families and what it requires of you and the potential outcomes if you are later seen to have betrayed that family, then so be it.

Since you are the poster in question, you know exactly what your situation is. I won't imply anything, but say it explicitly. I think that you are beholden to one or more of the kingdoms for your paycheck and therefore have a financial motivation for defending the murder and dismemberment of a dissident.

[Anonymous]

Funny that he is talking about this hypothetical Doha poster as if it's not him

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
You seem very eager to excuse this likely murder. The US has arrested American who spied for Israel. We didn’t chop them up into little pieces. Everyone should be outraged if this is what the Saudis did. That includes you.

When did KSA promise to behave exactly like America?

On the outrage, leaving aside the very curious attempt to dictate the feelings to perfect strangers...Khashoggi excused the regime chopping the heads of its opponents who called for political reforms inside the country. Now I am supposed to weep when HE got chopped up? Who kissed the royal bottom for years? Who ate from the hands of Al-Saud all his life? What's up with the clumsy attempt to package him as a lifelong reformer, instead of a lifelong government loyalist who either bet on the wrong prince or got too big for his britches?

Lie with the dogs, wake up with fleas.

Most Americans oppose the death penalty for expressing views, regardless of how horrendous those views may be. I'm sorry that you are in the minority that believes otherwise.

Most Saudis probably don’t. Geez, Jeff, how Eurocentric and imperialistic for you to impose your white American values on a totally different culture! I thought you were a liberal

I'm happy to impose the value of free expression on anyone. But more to the point, I am an American posting on a website whose audience is 99 percent American. Khashoggi was a US resident and the US has an interest in his fate. I'm surprised to find Saudi apologists here.

I don't know if it's as much as Saudi apologists as pragmatism. The people you seem to allege as being apologists are the ones pointing out the badasses in the House of Saud and the risks of crossing paths with them. That doesn't sound like apologising for Saudi to me. Everyone on this thread seems to mutually agree that the Saudis are terrible.

I looked up Khashoggi and from what I can tell he fled Saudi in 2017. He might have been living in the US at various points but he was not American. He was firmly a Saudi. He knew the rules, as anyone who's lived in the Gulf would know. You do not badmouth your country or tribe or ruler or politics in public, and not in the way he did. All bets are off when you do so. Trying to claim the virtues of Western liberalism while still still keeping a foot firmly in the world of 15th century tribal politics is pushing it a bit too far.

I am not without sympathy over the potentially brutal death of a man, but as others have pointed out, he doubtlessly knew the risks and what he was doing.

Posted from Doha. Another apologist.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to imply with that comment.

Surely even you know that Saudi and Qatar are now embroiled in a bitter diplomatic situation that has Qatar embargoed by Saudi. There is no love among Qataris for Saudi and particularly the current Saudi leadership, who they blame as primarily responsible for the embargo which began with the intent of overthrowing the Qatari sheikh Hamad al Thani. So why would someone in Qatar be apologising or defending Saudi?

That aside, it is also very possible that someone may be currently in Qatar as an American expat with no particular stakes in the situation but merely an interested observer who likes to munch on popcorn while watching the local kingdoms and their tinpot kings and royal families squabble with each other over meaningless things. If it makes me an apologist to point out the dangers of allying yourself too closely with the local ruling families and what it requires of you and the potential outcomes if you are later seen to have betrayed that family, then so be it.

Since you are the poster in question, you know exactly what your situation is. I won't imply anything, but say it explicitly. I think that you are beholden to one or more of the kingdoms for your paycheck and therefore have a financial motivation for defending the murder and dismemberment of a dissident.

Well, I must say now I've seen it all.

I googled you and I see you're the owner of this website. I'm disappointed by your comment as it's unfounded and highly insulting. But it's your site. C'est la vie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
You seem very eager to excuse this likely murder. The US has arrested American who spied for Israel. We didn’t chop them up into little pieces. Everyone should be outraged if this is what the Saudis did. That includes you.

When did KSA promise to behave exactly like America?

On the outrage, leaving aside the very curious attempt to dictate the feelings to perfect strangers...Khashoggi excused the regime chopping the heads of its opponents who called for political reforms inside the country. Now I am supposed to weep when HE got chopped up? Who kissed the royal bottom for years? Who ate from the hands of Al-Saud all his life? What's up with the clumsy attempt to package him as a lifelong reformer, instead of a lifelong government loyalist who either bet on the wrong prince or got too big for his britches?

Lie with the dogs, wake up with fleas.

Most Americans oppose the death penalty for expressing views, regardless of how horrendous those views may be. I'm sorry that you are in the minority that believes otherwise.

Most Saudis probably don’t. Geez, Jeff, how Eurocentric and imperialistic for you to impose your white American values on a totally different culture! I thought you were a liberal

I'm happy to impose the value of free expression on anyone. But more to the point, I am an American posting on a website whose audience is 99 percent American. Khashoggi was a US resident and the US has an interest in his fate. I'm surprised to find Saudi apologists here.

I don't know if it's as much as Saudi apologists as pragmatism. The people you seem to allege as being apologists are the ones pointing out the badasses in the House of Saud and the risks of crossing paths with them. That doesn't sound like apologising for Saudi to me. Everyone on this thread seems to mutually agree that the Saudis are terrible.

I looked up Khashoggi and from what I can tell he fled Saudi in 2017. He might have been living in the US at various points but he was not American. He was firmly a Saudi. He knew the rules, as anyone who's lived in the Gulf would know. You do not badmouth your country or tribe or ruler or politics in public, and not in the way he did. All bets are off when you do so. Trying to claim the virtues of Western liberalism while still still keeping a foot firmly in the world of 15th century tribal politics is pushing it a bit too far.

I am not without sympathy over the potentially brutal death of a man, but as others have pointed out, he doubtlessly knew the risks and what he was doing.

Posted from Doha. Another apologist.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to imply with that comment.

Surely even you know that Saudi and Qatar are now embroiled in a bitter diplomatic situation that has Qatar embargoed by Saudi. There is no love among Qataris for Saudi and particularly the current Saudi leadership, who they blame as primarily responsible for the embargo which began with the intent of overthrowing the Qatari sheikh Hamad al Thani. So why would someone in Qatar be apologising or defending Saudi?

That aside, it is also very possible that someone may be currently in Qatar as an American expat with no particular stakes in the situation but merely an interested observer who likes to munch on popcorn while watching the local kingdoms and their tinpot kings and royal families squabble with each other over meaningless things. If it makes me an apologist to point out the dangers of allying yourself too closely with the local ruling families and what it requires of you and the potential outcomes if you are later seen to have betrayed that family, then so be it.

Since you are the poster in question, you know exactly what your situation is. I won't imply anything, but say it explicitly. I think that you are beholden to one or more of the kingdoms for your paycheck and therefore have a financial motivation for defending the murder and dismemberment of a dissident.

Well, I must say now I've seen it all.

I googled you and I see you're the owner of this website. I'm disappointed by your comment as it's unfounded and highly insulting. But it's your site. C'est la vie.

Yup. Liberals now seem to have found their new "thing" - making unfounded, baseless accusations against those they disagree with.

[Anonymous]

Steve Mnuchin and Dina Powell still planning to attend an investment conference in Saudi Arabia next week.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/us/politics/jamal-khashoggi-disappearance-kushner.html#click=https://t.co/tNvWeQxIzV

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
You seem very eager to excuse this likely murder. The US has arrested American who spied for Israel. We didn’t chop them up into little pieces. Everyone should be outraged if this is what the Saudis did. That includes you.

When did KSA promise to behave exactly like America?

On the outrage, leaving aside the very curious attempt to dictate the feelings to perfect strangers...Khashoggi excused the regime chopping the heads of its opponents who called for political reforms inside the country. Now I am supposed to weep when HE got chopped up? Who kissed the royal bottom for years? Who ate from the hands of Al-Saud all his life? What's up with the clumsy attempt to package him as a lifelong reformer, instead of a lifelong government loyalist who either bet on the wrong prince or got too big for his britches?

Lie with the dogs, wake up with fleas.

Most Americans oppose the death penalty for expressing views, regardless of how horrendous those views may be. I'm sorry that you are in the minority that believes otherwise.

Most Saudis probably don’t. Geez, Jeff, how Eurocentric and imperialistic for you to impose your white American values on a totally different culture! I thought you were a liberal

I'm happy to impose the value of free expression on anyone. But more to the point, I am an American posting on a website whose audience is 99 percent American. Khashoggi was a US resident and the US has an interest in his fate. I'm surprised to find Saudi apologists here.

I don't know if it's as much as Saudi apologists as pragmatism. The people you seem to allege as being apologists are the ones pointing out the badasses in the House of Saud and the risks of crossing paths with them. That doesn't sound like apologising for Saudi to me. Everyone on this thread seems to mutually agree that the Saudis are terrible.

I looked up Khashoggi and from what I can tell he fled Saudi in 2017. He might have been living in the US at various points but he was not American. He was firmly a Saudi. He knew the rules, as anyone who's lived in the Gulf would know. You do not badmouth your country or tribe or ruler or politics in public, and not in the way he did. All bets are off when you do so. Trying to claim the virtues of Western liberalism while still still keeping a foot firmly in the world of 15th century tribal politics is pushing it a bit too far.

I am not without sympathy over the potentially brutal death of a man, but as others have pointed out, he doubtlessly knew the risks and what he was doing.

Posted from Doha. Another apologist.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to imply with that comment.

Surely even you know that Saudi and Qatar are now embroiled in a bitter diplomatic situation that has Qatar embargoed by Saudi. There is no love among Qataris for Saudi and particularly the current Saudi leadership, who they blame as primarily responsible for the embargo which began with the intent of overthrowing the Qatari sheikh Hamad al Thani. So why would someone in Qatar be apologising or defending Saudi?

That aside, it is also very possible that someone may be currently in Qatar as an American expat with no particular stakes in the situation but merely an interested observer who likes to munch on popcorn while watching the local kingdoms and their tinpot kings and royal families squabble with each other over meaningless things. If it makes me an apologist to point out the dangers of allying yourself too closely with the local ruling families and what it requires of you and the potential outcomes if you are later seen to have betrayed that family, then so be it.

Since you are the poster in question, you know exactly what your situation is. I won't imply anything, but say it explicitly. I think that you are beholden to one or more of the kingdoms for your paycheck and therefore have a financial motivation for defending the murder and dismemberment of a dissident.

Well, I must say now I've seen it all.

I googled you and I see you're the owner of this website. I'm disappointed by your comment as it's unfounded and highly insulting. But it's your site. C'est la vie.

Yup. Liberals now seem to have found their new "thing" - making unfounded, baseless accusations against those they disagree with.

Ted Cruz's father would like a word with you.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Well, I must say now I've seen it all.

I googled you and I see you're the owner of this website. I'm disappointed by your comment as it's unfounded and highly insulting. But it's your site. C'est la vie.

Insulting is it? You are the one that wrote about "the dangers of allying yourself too closely with the local ruling families and what it requires of you and the potential outcomes if you are later seen to have betrayed that family".

Not only are you blaming the victim, but you are explaining the rules as you understand them. If the rules in the Gulf are "loyalty or death" and you are a resident of a Gulf nation, why wouldn't those rules apply to you? I am simply suggesting that you follow the rules as you understand them. I'm not sure why you would find that insulting.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Well, I must say now I've seen it all.

I googled you and I see you're the owner of this website. I'm disappointed by your comment as it's unfounded and highly insulting. But it's your site. C'est la vie.

Insulting is it? You are the one that wrote about "the dangers of allying yourself too closely with the local ruling families and what it requires of you and the potential outcomes if you are later seen to have betrayed that family".

Not only are you blaming the victim, but you are explaining the rules as you understand them. If the rules in the Gulf are "loyalty or death" and you are a resident of a Gulf nation, why wouldn't those rules apply to you? I am simply suggesting that you follow the rules as you understand them. I'm not sure why you would find that insulting.

I'm not that poster but you're being silly. You make it sound that the ONLY possible reason to feel different from you is that this person draws a paycheck from a royal family.

Quite apart from that is the obvious nonsense that a mere resident of a Gulf nation is miles apart from a former Al-Saud sycophant who adored the royal family until he didn't.

What do you think of the fact that Khashoggi applauded the executions of political opposition members in KSA?

[Anonymous]

I am not sure why they call his Turkish girlfriend his fiancee when he is in fact still married to not one but two women. Because she doesn't like to be called a girlfriend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure why they call his Turkish girlfriend his fiancee when he is in fact still married to not one but two women. Because she doesn't like to be called a girlfriend?

Can't they be married to up to 4 women at a time? And all reports say that he entered the consulate to file paperwork for their wedding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure why they call his Turkish girlfriend his fiancee when he is in fact still married to not one but two women. Because she doesn't like to be called a girlfriend?

Can't they be married to up to 4 women at a time? And all reports say that he entered the consulate to file paperwork for their wedding.

Not in Turkey he can't! He needs proof of singledom to marry a Turkish woman for the marriage to be considered legal in that country.

He doesn't need to file anything with a Saudi consulate to marry anyone. He does, however, need proof of divorce or otherwise un-marriedness to marry in Turkey. It is possible that his visit was about collecting or notarizing proof of divorce from his Saudi wife.

He is also married to another woman here in the U.S., who is now in the Gulf. It is not known whether that marriage has been legalized outside the mosque.

Curiously enough, both her and his Turkish lady are rumored to be pregnant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The White House failed in a basic duty to inform; and all because Jared and Donald took a boatload of money from KSA to look the other way, to allow Russia to install nuclear capabilities in the region and as a bulwark to Iran.

Absolutely shameful. I hope the Senate passes Magnisky Act sanctions against KSA and put Trump and Kushner on a proverbial box (which is better than the actual box the Journalist is in)

What? In what way does the White House have a duty to inform? Inform whom?

Also, do get off the soapbox. Obama didn't take any money from KSA but that didn't really motivate him to speak up when the Saudis were imprisoning and executing opposition leaders.

“If any U.S. agencies did have foreknowledge of a potential Saudi plan to kidnap, kill, or maim Khashoggi, they had an obligation to warn him.

“Intelligence Community Directive 191—titled “Duty to Warn”—obligates U.S. intelligence agencies to inform...

See section H3 (page 4) https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICD/ICD_191.pdf

What did the IC know and what, if anything did they do about it and what, if anything, did the White House do to quash it?

But you really don't know what it is that they discussed. Being a devil's advocate, they may have very well said, hey, we plan to talk to him and offer him all kinds of cool stuff to return home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The White House failed in a basic duty to inform; and all because Jared and Donald took a boatload of money from KSA to look the other way, to allow Russia to install nuclear capabilities in the region and as a bulwark to Iran.

Absolutely shameful. I hope the Senate passes Magnisky Act sanctions against KSA and put Trump and Kushner on a proverbial box (which is better than the actual box the Journalist is in)

Not seeing the Russia connection. Thinking some folks are imagining Russians everywhere.

Read the Steel dossier, the Flynn reports and the Erik Prince reports.

It's all in there.

On this thread, of all those at DCUM, I must push back. If you think the Russians, even with the most far-fetched Rube Goldberg conspiracy touted by Rachel Maddow, are even vaguely in the, um, top 3 countries that meddle in U.S. affairs, you really don't get what's up.

Unfortunately, this mess, or at least U.S. weirdness around these events, was decades in the making and bipartisan for that whole time. The real questions aren't about Russia suddenly becoming our puppet master (a joke, honestly), but more about our long-standing commitments that violate our own stated values.

[Anonymous]

It's both.

We have puppet masters throughout the world and Russia has taken on increased significance in the Trump campaign and administration.