Hearing Testimony on FCPS Proposed CIP

[Anonymous]

Fairfax High already has a performing arts magnet and is centrally located.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a plan to close Lee:

Move Bren Mar Park back to Annandale from Edison [Annandale is projected to have space]

Move Springfield Estates and Lynbrook from Lee to Edison [Swap at Edison - might need to add modular]

Move Forestdale from Lee to Hayfield [Hayfield is projected to have space]

Move Saratoga from Lee to South County [SoCo is projected to have space]

Move Crestwood and the portion of Rolling Valley at Lee to West Springfield [Swap at West Springfield]

Move Orange Hunt and the portion of Sangster at West Springfield to Lake Braddock [Swap at West Springfield; Lake Braddocik is projected to have space]

They should keep Mount Vernon open, but move Fort Hunt there from West Potomac

[Mount Vernon is projected to have space]

Sorry but this is the silliest, most ridiculous and disruptive idea ever posted on this board about redistricting, and that is saying a lot.

Why? Scared of kids from Lee coming to your school?

Because it shows how very disruptive closing a high school would be.

I think I can give a little context to the rumor that the county is considering closing Lee. The issue came up once when main office assessment folks were discussing what could happen if Lee runs into trouble with student performance on a state level. One way to avoid having Virginia DOE sanctions is to essentially close the school. Alexandria, for example, did this when it built the new Jefferson Houston elementary school.

The issue for Lee is that it's sort of a perfect storm on the eastern/southern side of the county. There's actually sufficient room in the neighboring schools to redistrict everyone to new middle/high schools.

So, why would the county consider this? If Lee is within spitting distance of running into Virginia DOE sanctions, then a plan of some sort needed to be thought through. The closing of the school was one scenario that could accomplish this.

Then the question is what do you do with Lee? It's a good building and decent property. One thought was to do a consolidation of the IB programs on the eastern/south eastern part of the county. That idea is something that hasn't been developed yet, but the super is likely going to consider putting resources to see if it makes sense from an efficiency standpoint.

-Someone who works in the Gatehouse.

Right now Lee is fully accredited, so any issue with test scores would be several years away. And the scores actually seem pretty stable right now.

The surrounding schools are projected to have room for only about 740 students in five years (room at Annandale, South County, and Hayfield; Edison and West Springfield will be over capacity in five years.). Lee is projected to have 1802 students at that time, so you would be short more than 1000 seats. Some of the spare space at Hayfield may get used if they move students out of West Potomac to Hayfield and Mount Vernon. Overcrowding at Falls Church and Stuart, as is projected in five years, would most likely be relieved by moving some students to Annandale, using up some of that space. So it seems very unlikely to me that they will have enough room to close Lee. Closing a high school also might cause a cascade of boundary changes sure to anger many constituents.

As for an IB magnet at Lee - are we talking a dedicated IB program with no regular student body? Not sure you could sell that to enough students to make it worth while. You would particularly have to sell it to students from the surrounding schools to free up enough room in those schools for the students that would have to be relocated from Lee. I'm just not sure, given the choice of AP at their home high school, versus IB at a school that is farther away, is a real selling point. They would have to make is feel exclusive like TJ. Are they willing to do that?

If you work at Gatehouse, do FCPS staff members or School Board members ever admit they totally screwed Lee? Boundary changes without regards to demographics? Sticking with the IB program despite it being the leading reason for students pupil placement out of Lee? Reduction of the language program to the bare minimum (leading to more pupil placements)? It seems like they didn't care.

First, I think the biggest thing that people in my area focus on is delivery. We don't actually talk about specific schools because we're more of a subject matter resource. That said, the county does want to avoid having to deal with state oversight and there are concerns for all of the schools. Hence project momentum.

Lee was noticed because unlike Stuart, it didn't have the level of improvement. That led to the question of what happens if things get worse and the state got involved. FWIW Mount Vernon was also discussed and there's no clear answer that came of it. People seemed more excited about the Lee fix and seemed to accept that Mount Vernon might just be the place where the county can't avoid oversight. No one wants multiple schools with state oversight. It's bad for the county's PR that its schools are good. You can explain away an exception, but two...Hence, the discussion of moving Lee in different directions.

Your math was helpful. One thing you didn't catch was that Lake Braddock and Robinson both have capacity. The shifts also included moving some of the West Springfield feeders to Lake Braddock and moving Lake Braddock feeders to Robinson, fwiw. Both secondaries have capacity space for a few hundred additional students.

As for the IB idea? There was a census and when they looked at the feeders, there's about 450-500 students who are enrolled in the full IB program among the schools. So, the thought is definitely whether the county ought to consider creating a single stand alone IB school with a lottery process (based on middle school feeders--each one would get a certain amount of seats). What someone said was -- what if we created an HB Woodlawn here? There was a bunch of discussion but nothing is set in stone. There isn't even funding to figure out whether this is possible. The super would need to add it to a priority list and right now nothing is changing this year or next year.

The big sale is an economic one. They don't have funding to actually study this now, but someone pointed out that consolidation could save a good amount of money. This is going to require Board buy in and is a drama filled idea but something that is on the table.

How much money would a study cost? They seem to do very poor studies and I'm not sure how helpful they are. Just thinking about Thoreau and Annandale. The budget this year is a little underwhelming. No change whatsoever. No hard decisions made by the super. Thought he'd bring some more ideas to get the budget and schools under better management than just eliminating two admin positions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a plan to close Lee:

Move Bren Mar Park back to Annandale from Edison [Annandale is projected to have space]

Move Springfield Estates and Lynbrook from Lee to Edison [Swap at Edison - might need to add modular]

Move Forestdale from Lee to Hayfield [Hayfield is projected to have space]

Move Saratoga from Lee to South County [SoCo is projected to have space]

Move Crestwood and the portion of Rolling Valley at Lee to West Springfield [Swap at West Springfield]

Move Orange Hunt and the portion of Sangster at West Springfield to Lake Braddock [Swap at West Springfield; Lake Braddocik is projected to have space]

They should keep Mount Vernon open, but move Fort Hunt there from West Potomac

[Mount Vernon is projected to have space]

Sorry but this is the silliest, most ridiculous and disruptive idea ever posted on this board about redistricting, and that is saying a lot.

Why? Scared of kids from Lee coming to your school?

Because it shows how very disruptive closing a high school would be.

I think I can give a little context to the rumor that the county is considering closing Lee. The issue came up once when main office assessment folks were discussing what could happen if Lee runs into trouble with student performance on a state level. One way to avoid having Virginia DOE sanctions is to essentially close the school. Alexandria, for example, did this when it built the new Jefferson Houston elementary school.

The issue for Lee is that it's sort of a perfect storm on the eastern/southern side of the county. There's actually sufficient room in the neighboring schools to redistrict everyone to new middle/high schools.

So, why would the county consider this? If Lee is within spitting distance of running into Virginia DOE sanctions, then a plan of some sort needed to be thought through. The closing of the school was one scenario that could accomplish this.

Then the question is what do you do with Lee? It's a good building and decent property. One thought was to do a consolidation of the IB programs on the eastern/south eastern part of the county. That idea is something that hasn't been developed yet, but the super is likely going to consider putting resources to see if it makes sense from an efficiency standpoint.

-Someone who works in the Gatehouse.

Right now Lee is fully accredited, so any issue with test scores would be several years away. And the scores actually seem pretty stable right now.

The surrounding schools are projected to have room for only about 740 students in five years (room at Annandale, South County, and Hayfield; Edison and West Springfield will be over capacity in five years.). Lee is projected to have 1802 students at that time, so you would be short more than 1000 seats. Some of the spare space at Hayfield may get used if they move students out of West Potomac to Hayfield and Mount Vernon. Overcrowding at Falls Church and Stuart, as is projected in five years, would most likely be relieved by moving some students to Annandale, using up some of that space. So it seems very unlikely to me that they will have enough room to close Lee. Closing a high school also might cause a cascade of boundary changes sure to anger many constituents.

As for an IB magnet at Lee - are we talking a dedicated IB program with no regular student body? Not sure you could sell that to enough students to make it worth while. You would particularly have to sell it to students from the surrounding schools to free up enough room in those schools for the students that would have to be relocated from Lee. I'm just not sure, given the choice of AP at their home high school, versus IB at a school that is farther away, is a real selling point. They would have to make is feel exclusive like TJ. Are they willing to do that?

If you work at Gatehouse, do FCPS staff members or School Board members ever admit they totally screwed Lee? Boundary changes without regards to demographics? Sticking with the IB program despite it being the leading reason for students pupil placement out of Lee? Reduction of the language program to the bare minimum (leading to more pupil placements)? It seems like they didn't care.

First, I think the biggest thing that people in my area focus on is delivery. We don't actually talk about specific schools because we're more of a subject matter resource. That said, the county does want to avoid having to deal with state oversight and there are concerns for all of the schools. Hence project momentum.

Lee was noticed because unlike Stuart, it didn't have the level of improvement. That led to the question of what happens if things get worse and the state got involved. FWIW Mount Vernon was also discussed and there's no clear answer that came of it. People seemed more excited about the Lee fix and seemed to accept that Mount Vernon might just be the place where the county can't avoid oversight. No one wants multiple schools with state oversight. It's bad for the county's PR that its schools are good. You can explain away an exception, but two...Hence, the discussion of moving Lee in different directions.

Your math was helpful. One thing you didn't catch was that Lake Braddock and Robinson both have capacity. The shifts also included moving some of the West Springfield feeders to Lake Braddock and moving Lake Braddock feeders to Robinson, fwiw. Both secondaries have capacity space for a few hundred additional students.

As for the IB idea? There was a census and when they looked at the feeders, there's about 450-500 students who are enrolled in the full IB program among the schools. So, the thought is definitely whether the county ought to consider creating a single stand alone IB school with a lottery process (based on middle school feeders--each one would get a certain amount of seats). What someone said was -- what if we created an HB Woodlawn here? There was a bunch of discussion but nothing is set in stone. There isn't even funding to figure out whether this is possible. The super would need to add it to a priority list and right now nothing is changing this year or next year.

The big sale is an economic one. They don't have funding to actually study this now, but someone pointed out that consolidation could save a good amount of money. This is going to require Board buy in and is a drama filled idea but something that is on the table.

How much money would a study cost? They seem to do very poor studies and I'm not sure how helpful they are. Just thinking about Thoreau and Annandale. The budget this year is a little underwhelming. No change whatsoever. No hard decisions made by the super. Thought he'd bring some more ideas to get the budget and schools under better management than just eliminating two admin positions.

It’s smart of Brabrand to take stock of things for a year before proposing major changes. But the long-term future of Lee is not good and it’s been set up to fail with its current boundaries, a crappy IB program that functions mostly as an escape valve for kids to pupil place to other schools, and an archaic name that honors a Confederate general.

[Anonymous]

I thought students can't pupil place except for foreign language because Lee now also offers AP and IB classes. Is this true?

[Anonymous]

Correction - "because Lee now offers both AP and IB courses"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fairfax High already has a performing arts magnet and is centrally located.

Since when?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fairfax High already has a performing arts magnet and is centrally located.

Since when?

It has a arts academy that could be expanded further

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought students can't pupil place except for foreign language because Lee now also offers AP and IB classes. Is this true?

Not true. Lee offers very limited AP classes in comparison.

[Anonymous]

If PP is correct about student transfer and lots of discussion on when it's unaccredited, then more families should student transfer to further lower the test score. How low do you have to go to lose accreditation? We know school board can't/won't make decisions. As a community, let's force the issue, get the school to a point where they need to make a decision. So hard to see the school trying so hard and so few families volunteering.

Where can you find info on how many student transfers are requested and approved?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If PP is correct about student transfer and lots of discussion on when it's unaccredited, then more families should student transfer to further lower the test score. How low do you have to go to lose accreditation? We know school board can't/won't make decisions. As a community, let's force the issue, get the school to a point where they need to make a decision. So hard to see the school trying so hard and so few families volunteering.

Where can you find info on how many student transfers are requested and approved?

Not sure about where to find the # of student transfer requests, but this year there are 13 students pupil placed to Lee and 116 who pupil placed from Lee to other schools. You can find this on the transfer report on the capacity dashboard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If PP is correct about student transfer and lots of discussion on when it's unaccredited, then more families should student transfer to further lower the test score. How low do you have to go to lose accreditation? We know school board can't/won't make decisions. As a community, let's force the issue, get the school to a point where they need to make a decision. So hard to see the school trying so hard and so few families volunteering.

Where can you find info on how many student transfers are requested and approved?

Not sure about where to find the # of student transfer requests, but this year there are 13 students pupil placed to Lee and 116 who pupil placed from Lee to other schools. You can find this on the transfer report on the capacity dashboard.

In terms of losing accreditation, the issue at Lee is that its ESOL population SOL performance puts it at the brink of not clearing three state benchmarks. Stuart actually responded well to project Momentum. Lee didn't. Neither did Mount Vernon.

By "closing" Lee, the county would be able to essentially clear state oversight. One consideration was the impact on Edison, Annandale, West Springfield and Hayfield. Between the IB transfers out and the students transferring in or being redistricted to South County, Lake Braddock or Robinson, the numbers apparently made some sense.

Someone is working on preparing a budget proposal for this, I believe, fwiw. It would only cover the cost of the study, but would spell out who's moving where, what cost savings exist with IB being consolidated, etc.

It will be very interesting to see what happens next, but I imagine this process will move very, very slowly until Lee hits two years of red zones in SOL performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If PP is correct about student transfer and lots of discussion on when it's unaccredited, then more families should student transfer to further lower the test score. How low do you have to go to lose accreditation? We know school board can't/won't make decisions. As a community, let's force the issue, get the school to a point where they need to make a decision. So hard to see the school trying so hard and so few families volunteering.

Where can you find info on how many student transfers are requested and approved?

Not sure about where to find the # of student transfer requests, but this year there are 13 students pupil placed to Lee and 116 who pupil placed from Lee to other schools. You can find this on the transfer report on the capacity dashboard.

In terms of losing accreditation, the issue at Lee is that its ESOL population SOL performance puts it at the brink of not clearing three state benchmarks. Stuart actually responded well to project Momentum. Lee didn't. Neither did Mount Vernon.

By "closing" Lee, the county would be able to essentially clear state oversight. One consideration was the impact on Edison, Annandale, West Springfield and Hayfield. Between the IB transfers out and the students transferring in or being redistricted to South County, Lake Braddock or Robinson, the numbers apparently made some sense.

Someone is working on preparing a budget proposal for this, I believe, fwiw. It would only cover the cost of the study, but would spell out who's moving where, what cost savings exist with IB being consolidated, etc.

It will be very interesting to see what happens next, but I imagine this process will move very, very slowly until Lee hits two years of red zones in SOL performance.

It seems like an extreme measure, compared with the improvements to Lee that could occur if FCPS eliminated IB at Lee, moved some of West Springfield to Lee, and transferred some of its top administrative talent to Key/Lee like it did to Glasgow/Stuart. The overwhelming message to the Key/Lee from FCPS has been you're toxic, we can't possibly move any of the snowflakes from Irving/West Springfield to your school, and we'll saddle you with mediocre administrators who have worn out their welcome at other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If PP is correct about student transfer and lots of discussion on when it's unaccredited, then more families should student transfer to further lower the test score. How low do you have to go to lose accreditation? We know school board can't/won't make decisions. As a community, let's force the issue, get the school to a point where they need to make a decision. So hard to see the school trying so hard and so few families volunteering.

Where can you find info on how many student transfers are requested and approved?

Not sure about where to find the # of student transfer requests, but this year there are 13 students pupil placed to Lee and 116 who pupil placed from Lee to other schools. You can find this on the transfer report on the capacity dashboard.

In terms of losing accreditation, the issue at Lee is that its ESOL population SOL performance puts it at the brink of not clearing three state benchmarks. Stuart actually responded well to project Momentum. Lee didn't. Neither did Mount Vernon.

By "closing" Lee, the county would be able to essentially clear state oversight. One consideration was the impact on Edison, Annandale, West Springfield and Hayfield. Between the IB transfers out and the students transferring in or being redistricted to South County, Lake Braddock or Robinson, the numbers apparently made some sense.

Someone is working on preparing a budget proposal for this, I believe, fwiw. It would only cover the cost of the study, but would spell out who's moving where, what cost savings exist with IB being consolidated, etc.

It will be very interesting to see what happens next, but I imagine this process will move very, very slowly until Lee hits two years of red zones in SOL performance.

It seems like an extreme measure, compared with the improvements to Lee that could occur if FCPS eliminated IB at Lee, moved some of West Springfield to Lee, and transferred some of its top administrative talent to Key/Lee like it did to Glasgow/Stuart. The overwhelming message to the Key/Lee from FCPS has been you're toxic, we can't possibly move any of the snowflakes from Irving/West Springfield to your school, and we'll saddle you with mediocre administrators who have worn out their welcome at other schools.

And if they re-zoned kids and took away the IB at Lee.... and then RENAMED it, it would kind of be a fresh new start. Wouldn't have the baggage of poor performance (at least in the beginning). There is an opportunity to rebrand and reset the curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Chiming in as a FCPS graduate from the mid 1980s.

Lee HS has paled in comparison to its nearby high and secondary schools (testing, college acceptance, general rigor) since my parents moved to Springfield in 1979 and made their house buying decision based on academic reputation of LBSS/WSHS/Robinson/Fairfax and Lee. They decided quite easily against Lee. It’s been inferior for a long time and aging housing stock and socioeconomic factors have done this school no favors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If PP is correct about student transfer and lots of discussion on when it's unaccredited, then more families should student transfer to further lower the test score. How low do you have to go to lose accreditation? We know school board can't/won't make decisions. As a community, let's force the issue, get the school to a point where they need to make a decision. So hard to see the school trying so hard and so few families volunteering.

Where can you find info on how many student transfers are requested and approved?

Not sure about where to find the # of student transfer requests, but this year there are 13 students pupil placed to Lee and 116 who pupil placed from Lee to other schools. You can find this on the transfer report on the capacity dashboard.

In terms of losing accreditation, the issue at Lee is that its ESOL population SOL performance puts it at the brink of not clearing three state benchmarks. Stuart actually responded well to project Momentum. Lee didn't. Neither did Mount Vernon.

By "closing" Lee, the county would be able to essentially clear state oversight. One consideration was the impact on Edison, Annandale, West Springfield and Hayfield. Between the IB transfers out and the students transferring in or being redistricted to South County, Lake Braddock or Robinson, the numbers apparently made some sense.

Someone is working on preparing a budget proposal for this, I believe, fwiw. It would only cover the cost of the study, but would spell out who's moving where, what cost savings exist with IB being consolidated, etc.

It will be very interesting to see what happens next, but I imagine this process will move very, very slowly until Lee hits two years of red zones in SOL performance.

It seems like an extreme measure, compared with the improvements to Lee that could occur if FCPS eliminated IB at Lee, moved some of West Springfield to Lee, and transferred some of its top administrative talent to Key/Lee like it did to Glasgow/Stuart. The overwhelming message to the Key/Lee from FCPS has been you're toxic, we can't possibly move any of the snowflakes from Irving/West Springfield to your school, and we'll saddle you with mediocre administrators who have worn out their welcome at other schools.

And if they re-zoned kids and took away the IB at Lee.... and then RENAMED it, it would kind of be a fresh new start. Wouldn't have the baggage of poor performance (at least in the beginning). There is an opportunity to rebrand and reset the curriculum.

That's another angle to all of this. People don't want to deal with the drama that fueled the Justice High name change. If it was simply the region's IB school, it could be renamed as well.

Another FYI -- someone also mentioned returning students to Annandale from Woodson. Basically, if the idea gets wings, don't be surprised if the county takes it and runs and moves all sorts of school boundaries to address capacity/under capacity issues. It's super unpopular to move boundaries, but if this magnet idea gets off the ground, people did talk about using it as a way to fix other school capacity issues.