Can anyone tell me the story of Stuart-Hobson?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.

+100.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.

+100.

Yes, this!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.

+100.

Grow up, PPs. You're painting with too broad a brush.

There's been a sizeable group of LT boosters with chips on their shoulders around here for more than a decade. Some of us have been on hand long enough to remember the pre Cobbs period, when were were willing to sign a petition to oust her predecessor.

On our little IB street, parents enroll 2 dozen ES-age kids in half a dozen DC public schools. The only families using LT are using it for preschool. Meanwhile, a few blocks east, most kids on streets in-boundary for Maury attend Maury.

Brent families are rightly proud that their school is majority IB, from what I hear with this year's K class entirely IB for the first time. Good for Brent.

I'll cheer for LT when its student body is majority IB. Come on, brown people and poors are just fine at any Hill DCPS, as long as the school is majority IB, as it should be in a system running neighborhood schools city-wide!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.

sorry . . . just have to completely call BS on this. You obviously know NOTHING about either school community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.

sorry . . . just have to completely call BS on this. You obviously know NOTHING about either school community.

Ummm, two things:

1. Learn to read. This isn't about the communities, it is about the posts in this thread. Lord you people are tiring. Brent and SWS chimed in to say exactly what I represented they said.
2. Please tell me you aren't going to argue the data. It is published, my dear. Data doesn't lie. Just because you have a black friend doesn't make it any less true.

[Anonymous]

Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.



+100

Grow up, PPs. You're painting with too broad a brush.

There's been a sizeable group of LT boosters with chips on their shoulders around here for more than a decade. Some of us have been on hand long enough to remember the pre Cobbs period, when were were willing to sign a petition to oust her predecessor.

On our little IB street, parents enroll 2 dozen ES-age kids in half a dozen DC public schools. The only families using LT are using it for preschool. Meanwhile, a few blocks east, most kids on streets in-boundary for Maury attend Maury.

Brent families are rightly proud that their school is majority IB, from what I hear with this year's K class entirely IB for the first time. Good for Brent.

I'll cheer for LT when its student body is majority IB. Come on, brown people and poors are just fine at any Hill DCPS, as long as the school is majority IB, as it should be in a system running neighborhood schools city-

What is the real tangible benefit of the majority IB? One PP has meticulously laid out the data showing that LT's scores at 5th grade (and I think 4th) are on par or higher than Brent's. The same PP also pointed out that the retention at both LT and Watkins is from 4th to 5th is higher, and is likely to be high going into 6th at Stuart Hobson, obviously much more so than either Brent to Jefferson or Maury to Eliot-Hine. So, the scores are improving enough at LT to wipe out the difference with Brent. And while I kind of gross myself out to say this, the scores at Watkins for white kids has always been noticeably higher than at Brent, for years. (I acknowledge that Watkins has a real problem in the achievement gap). But with these data points, it's clear there absolutely is buy-in by the school communities at LT and Watkins year-over-year. Again, I ask what is the distinguishing material benefit that higher IB brings if not a stronger student population?

[Anonymous]

Neighborhood schools primarily serve families in the catchment area, not kids from outside.

In the case of LT and SH, the overwhelming majority of kids in the catchment area are high SES with professional parents while the majority of the students are low SES.

We were thrilled to lottery into Maury for K from LT in PreK. We're happy to have avoided LT in favoring of attending a real neighborhood school within biking riding distance of our home. If that makes us racist, classist jerks, so be it. We're planning to stay at Maury through 5th. If LT had been majority IB, we'd have stayed.

We hardly care about test scores. To each her own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.

sorry . . . just have to completely call BS on this. You obviously know NOTHING about either school community.

Ummm, two things:

1. Learn to read. This isn't about the communities, it is about the posts in this thread. Lord you people are tiring. Brent and SWS chimed in to say exactly what I represented they said.
2. Please tell me you aren't going to argue the data. It is published, my dear. Data doesn't lie. Just because you have a black friend doesn't make it any less true.

You either can’t read or are just straight up lying. Multiple people who are in bounds for SH have chimed in on this thread to say they would support the strong hill ES feeding into one MS. For example I am in-bounds for Watkins and would support a true Hill MS.

[Anonymous]

It is very easy to say you will support something that doesn't exist now and may never exist.

The question for parents of 4th-7th graders, is what are you doing now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Calling anyone with ambivalence about sending their kids to SH a racist is not the most persuasive argument for encouraging IB enrollment, but it's certainly the most predictable on DCUM.

+100. Who isn't at least a little racist around here?

The strident LT boosters don't seem to want to boost IB enrollment at SH as much as to screen for the like-minded. So glad we're at an ES that's already turned in the upper grades, so we don't have to walk on eggshells around name callers.

What posts are you reading? Seriously? What does that even mean? LT is a DCPS school with an IB catchment area. There is no choosing or excluding those kids. And no one on this board has argued for that. Furthermore no one is arguing IB isn't good; what we've argued is kids re-enrolling into MS is an essential first step when the school from which they rise has good scores and good culture. Were your reading comprehension skills at grade level you would have noticed that the only people on this board that have argued for homogeneity are Brent and SWS families...and they did it openly and proudly. Also, ES that have improved in the upper grades on the Hill have scores the same or less good than LT...the very school whose boosters you misunderstand. But yet again, there you go making my point for me. You set out that you are in an ES that has improved in the upper grades and while you are incapable of seeing that LT has as well. But it does have brown people and poors, as you point out. So it can't really have turned I guess.



+100

Grow up, PPs. You're painting with too broad a brush.

There's been a sizeable group of LT boosters with chips on their shoulders around here for more than a decade. Some of us have been on hand long enough to remember the pre Cobbs period, when were were willing to sign a petition to oust her predecessor.

On our little IB street, parents enroll 2 dozen ES-age kids in half a dozen DC public schools. The only families using LT are using it for preschool. Meanwhile, a few blocks east, most kids on streets in-boundary for Maury attend Maury.

Brent families are rightly proud that their school is majority IB, from what I hear with this year's K class entirely IB for the first time. Good for Brent.

I'll cheer for LT when its student body is majority IB. Come on, brown people and poors are just fine at any Hill DCPS, as long as the school is majority IB, as it should be in a system running neighborhood schools city-

What is the real tangible benefit of the majority IB? One PP has meticulously laid out the data showing that LT's scores at 5th grade (and I think 4th) are on par or higher than Brent's. The same PP also pointed out that the retention at both LT and Watkins is from 4th to 5th is higher, and is likely to be high going into 6th at Stuart Hobson, obviously much more so than either Brent to Jefferson or Maury to Eliot-Hine. So, the scores are improving enough at LT to wipe out the difference with Brent. And while I kind of gross myself out to say this, the scores at Watkins for white kids has always been noticeably higher than at Brent, for years. (I acknowledge that Watkins has a real problem in the achievement gap). But with these data points, it's clear there absolutely is buy-in by the school communities at LT and Watkins year-over-year. Again, I ask what is the distinguishing material benefit that higher IB brings if not a stronger student population?

The fact that people who live OOB for Watkins and LT (both of those schools have a majority OOB population) are choosing to attend SH is meaningless. They are doing that because their options are WORSE. What people on the Hill want is strong elementary schools and a strong middle school. They don’t have that, so they are voting with their feet. You seem to think that because there are worse DCPS schools that people are fleeing to fill Hill ES and SH, that somehow negates the fact that people who actually live IB for these schools don’t attend. It does not.

[Anonymous]

Reposting because the quotes got messed up:


The fact that people who live OOB for Watkins and LT (both of those schools have a majority OOB population) are choosing to attend SH is meaningless. They are doing that because their options are WORSE. What people on the Hill want is strong elementary schools and a strong middle school. They don’t have that, so they are voting with their feet. You seem to think that because there are worse DCPS schools that people are fleeing to fill Hill ES and SH, that somehow negates the fact that people who actually live IB for these schools don’t attend. It does not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improving, right, but, as has been said, turning SH into a Deal, or even a Hardy, is a 10-20 year project without Brent, Maury and SWS when it could have been a 3-5 year project.

Many of us on the Hill are fed up with losing dear friends to the burbs because Hill schools aren't attractive to most in-boundary families after elementary. Many of us feel that DCPS made a terrible mistake four years ago in refusing to respond to high local demand for a change in the Ward 6 middle school elementary-to-middle school feed situation.

I'm in-bounds for SH and won't enroll my child in a couple years on current trends, like most of our friends. Our children are well-behaved students who easily score 5s on both PARCC sections. Arguably, SH won't be better off without us.

Christ, it's been said by YOU about 1000 times on any SH related post. Give it a rest.

We got it -- you're going elsewhere. From your condescending tone alone I can promise you that you would not be missed at SH.

NP here and this is a real problem. You have tons of high SES parents IB for Hill schools opting out of DCPS because the middle school situation is a mess on the Hill. Some of those families are moving but many more are going to charters. DCPS could easily fix this by adjusting the feeder patterns and it’s so stupid that they refuse to do it.

Yes, it is. I'm going elsewhere, too, and haven't posted on other SH threads. Hundreds like us will in fact be missed at SH by any stakeholder with a thinking brain who cares about educating poor kids (um, all things being equal, poor kids don't do better without lots of higher SES classmates in their schools than they do with lots of high SES classmates in their schools).

I see even greater stupidity in how some IB Cluster parents defend the mess tooth and nail. Over the years, they've become their own worst enemies where Hill middle schools go.

The fact that YOU don't have feeder rights to SH doesn't a "mess"make. Brent isn't the only IB school with high SES, you obnoxious self centered "me-monster". And as the numbers actually show, LT and other SH feeders are improving (and in some cases outpacing Brent). While the number of OOB lottery spots matching in the lottery is falling to near zero. So the fact that you want to believe nothing is changing doesn't mean nothing is changing.

As others have said, and contrary to your belief, you will in fact not be missed.

New to this thread. Brent's scores drop (by Brent standards - which are higher than DCPS's and LT's) in 5th because so many families leave for Latin or Basis.

Which is really what all of this is about. Honestly, even if they could get into SH, Basis and Latin are better anyway. And THAT is what Hill families wanted. DCPS didn't deliver on rigor and quality so charters stepped in and filled a need. Now they offer something better than what DCPS has to offer. Ultimately, it's DCPS's and the Cluster's loss.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is, although active Watkins and SH parents tend not to see the forest for the trees on this one (or at least to admit to seeing it).

With 40 kids at Brent staying for 5th grade this year (up from 1/4 that number as recently as SY 2015-16) 5th grade PARCC scores are set to rise this year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reposting because the quotes got messed up:


The fact that people who live OOB for Watkins and LT (both of those schools have a majority OOB population) are choosing to attend SH is meaningless. They are doing that because their options are WORSE. What people on the Hill want is strong elementary schools and a strong middle school. They don’t have that, so they are voting with their feet. You seem to think that because there are worse DCPS schools that people are fleeing to fill Hill ES and SH, that somehow negates the fact that people who actually live IB for these schools don’t attend. It does not.

+1. We left Watkins because it's too crazy, and we're IB. It's no neighborhood school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improving, right, but, as has been said, turning SH into a Deal, or even a Hardy, is a 10-20 year project without Brent, Maury and SWS when it could have been a 3-5 year project.

Many of us on the Hill are fed up with losing dear friends to the burbs because Hill schools aren't attractive to most in-boundary families after elementary. Many of us feel that DCPS made a terrible mistake four years ago in refusing to respond to high local demand for a change in the Ward 6 middle school elementary-to-middle school feed situation.

I'm in-bounds for SH and won't enroll my child in a couple years on current trends, like most of our friends. Our children are well-behaved students who easily score 5s on both PARCC sections. Arguably, SH won't be better off without us.

Christ, it's been said by YOU about 1000 times on any SH related post. Give it a rest.

We got it -- you're going elsewhere. From your condescending tone alone I can promise you that you would not be missed at SH.

NP here and this is a real problem. You have tons of high SES parents IB for Hill schools opting out of DCPS because the middle school situation is a mess on the Hill. Some of those families are moving but many more are going to charters. DCPS could easily fix this by adjusting the feeder patterns and it’s so stupid that they refuse to do it.

Yes, it is. I'm going elsewhere, too, and haven't posted on other SH threads. Hundreds like us will in fact be missed at SH by any stakeholder with a thinking brain who cares about educating poor kids (um, all things being equal, poor kids don't do better without lots of higher SES classmates in their schools than they do with lots of high SES classmates in their schools).

I see even greater stupidity in how some IB Cluster parents defend the mess tooth and nail. Over the years, they've become their own worst enemies where Hill middle schools go.

The fact that YOU don't have feeder rights to SH doesn't a "mess"make. Brent isn't the only IB school with high SES, you obnoxious self centered "me-monster". And as the numbers actually show, LT and other SH feeders are improving (and in some cases outpacing Brent). While the number of OOB lottery spots matching in the lottery is falling to near zero. So the fact that you want to believe nothing is changing doesn't mean nothing is changing.

As others have said, and contrary to your belief, you will in fact not be missed.

New to this thread. Brent's scores drop (by Brent standards - which are higher than DCPS's and LT's) in 5th because so many families leave for Latin or Basis.

Which is really what all of this is about. Honestly, even if they could get into SH, Basis and Latin are better anyway. And THAT is what Hill families wanted. DCPS didn't deliver on rigor and quality so charters stepped in and filled a need. Now they offer something better than what DCPS has to offer. Ultimately, it's DCPS's and the Cluster's loss.

Where to begin.

What on earth does it mean to say that Brent's standards are higher than LT's or DCPS? The numbers aren't adjusted for Brent families; you get that right? They are the same for all schools, and LT's scores are higher, and not just in 4th (see below). Why do you assume non-Brent families don't want exceptional outcomes? Is your premise that the poors and dark people accept less good outcomes because they neither know better nor want to improve those outcomes? And how do you think things improve? The only thing better than self centered a-holes with superiority complexes is when they expose their ignorance while espousing those world views.

Brent's scores aren't higher than LT's in 5th or in 4th. I know that Brent parents like to use the "kids leaving in 5th" excuse, but the data doesn't lie. Repeating a falsehood with conviction doesn't make it any truer. I even pasted the scores in a prior post. Take a look; the LT kids outperform your kids.

Why do you think that Latin and Basis are by-right schools for Brent? And why do you think that Latin is mostly Brent; it isn't. That data is public too.

Follow along, my dear. This isn't a DCPS vs Charter discussion. If I thought you had the capacity I'd accuse you of trolling. But I'm betting you sincerely think your comment contributes to the discussion here. It is not as "charters stepped in to solve the problem". Setting aside the gross oversimplification, it does nothing to advance how we get from where we are to improved outcomes. If you think things are set in stone and nothing can and will change then, with all do respect, go somewhere else and let the adults talk. I vehemently disagree with many of the Brent posters. And I object to the veiled racism of some. But it feels to me at least like even those families truly desire to improve outcomes. I just happen to disagree with how they think that is accomplished. You, on the other hand, are a child who screams "charters" and thinks education on the Hill is a static concept.

There is no magic bullet that takes a school from poor to great overnight. I know Brent parents think the inclusion of your kids will accomplish that, but it won't. The path is improved educational outcomes for kids that are there, which in turn yields buy-in from younger kids and IB families, which in turn feeds MS. LT/JO/Peabody families used lottery into Maury because it was an objectively better school. Those families wanted to invest in their IB schools, but there was another Hill school with objectively better educational outcomes. As that school became more IB, those families were willing to give their IB a try. And as educational outcomes improve those families commit. The challenge in talking to people like you is that you seem to ignore data unless it confirms your belief. Just look at your post! You incorrectly state that Brent is better in 4th and only outperformed in 5th. That just isn't so.

No one is arguing that SH is superior to Deal or Latin right now. The issue is whether the trajectory of the feeders and SH itself portent positive things. Many of us think it does. And that is in the absence of you and your Brent friends, not all of whom are going to Latin or Basis (which, by the way, works 100% through their WL and is not a viable curriculum for many kids.)