Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
I again ask, do you expect average Muslims to agree with you and begin taking concubines or do you expect them to reject their religion? Or, are they only supposed to bow down to your obviously superior knowledge of their religion? It looks to me that your only interest is spreading a negative perception of Islam despite the fact that your effort is based on something that is practically unknown among Muslims.

I have no expectations - of Muslims, of you, or indeed of anyone else.

Do you not get it, or are you refusing to get it? The issue isn't whether an average Muslim takes concubines or not. If you want to define the religion by what average Muslims do, well, average Muslims drink alcohol and engage in premarital sex, and it's perfectly clear the religion condemns it. The issue is: does Islam, or does Islam not, in the words of whatever religious authority is authorized to interpret it today, allow for concubinage? Is it possible to locate a scholarly opinion by a Muslim scholar, today, that concubinage is acceptable? The answer to that question is "yes."

It's practically unknown among Muslims because most of them are reasonable people. This has nothing to do with what their scholars say is permissible. We don't judge what religion allows by the action of its followers. We judge what the religion allows by the laws of its scripture.

No, you don't get it. Islam doesn't have religious authorities that are authorized to interpret the religion for all Muslims. You can find a few kooks or people on the Saudi payroll who might agree with you, but go to your local mosque and ask. You won't be told that concubines are acceptable. The comparison to alcohol and premarital sex is specious. The average Muslim, whether that individual engages in such things or not, will agree that they are forbidden by Islam. Ask the same individual about concubines, and you will also be told they are also forbidden. I question how much time you have spent among actual Muslims.

It is interesting that when it comes to Islam, you judge by its scripture (despite Muhammad's biography not being scripture). Yet, in the undeniable case of Hagar in the Christian and Jewish scripture, you raise the bar to require a recent ruling by a reputable scholar.

The New Testament talks about marriage in terms of couples, not polygamy. Who needs more recent scholarly rulings?

[Anonymous]

Fatwas on slavery:

http://islamqa.info/en/cat/362

[Anonymous]

But glory be, Mr. Sistani disagrees.

http://islamopediaonline.org/fatwa/ayatollah-al-sistani-prohibits-enslavement-and-rape-women-during-military-campaign-and-forbids?page=7

I always thought there was something more enlightened about the Shia. The whole pick your marjah business is quite alluring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But glory be, Mr. Sistani disagrees.

http://islamopediaonline.org/fatwa/ayatollah-al-sistani-prohibits-enslavement-and-rape-women-during-military-campaign-and-forbids?page=7

I always thought there was something more enlightened about the Shia. The whole pick your marjah business is quite alluring.

Thanks, PP, for all the info. I, for one, don't interpret these posts as trying to convert Muslima to atheism, or something. Nor do I see these posts as part of a campaign to disparage Islam--because the only way to interpret that particular charge is to conclude that Islam has something to hide and nobody should be telling others what goes on outside of Muslima's little world. No, I'm grateful to you for explaining to me, a reader, these nuances and in particular the point about Shiism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

No, you don't get it. Islam doesn't have religious authorities that are authorized to interpret the religion for all Muslims. You can find a few kooks or people on the Saudi payroll who might agree with you, but go to your local mosque and ask. You won't be told that concubines are acceptable. The comparison to alcohol and premarital sex is specious. The average Muslim, whether that individual engages in such things or not, will agree that they are forbidden by Islam. Ask the same individual about concubines, and you will also be told they are also forbidden. I question how much time you have spent among actual Muslims.

It is interesting that when it comes to Islam, you judge by its scripture (despite Muhammad's biography not being scripture). Yet, in the undeniable case of Hagar in the Christian and Jewish scripture, you raise the bar to require a recent ruling by a reputable scholar.

Question away, dear. I grew up in a Muslim community. I'm married to a Muslim. My children are Muslim. I am immersed in this environment beyond anything you can contemplate. But then again, we are just bozos on the internet to you.

What an average Muslim thinks about concubinage isn't relevant. What is relevant is what the learned people think. Yes, Islam doesn't have a central religious authority but I hope you wouldn't question that it has an abundance of scholars that issue opinions, or that these scholars find themselves sitting on their hands most of the time? Aren't there religious authorities? Where do people go for opinions? Do these places exist?

Why are people on the Saudi payroll wrong and the local mosque right? Both are singing the tune that's acceptable to their host countries.

I think both of you guys are making valid points, actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But glory be, Mr. Sistani disagrees.

http://islamopediaonline.org/fatwa/ayatollah-al-sistani-prohibits-enslavement-and-rape-women-during-military-campaign-and-forbids?page=7

I always thought there was something more enlightened about the Shia. The whole pick your marjah business is quite alluring.

Thanks, PP, for all the info. I, for one, don't interpret these posts as trying to convert Muslima to atheism, or something. Nor do I see these posts as part of a campaign to disparage Islam--because the only way to interpret that particular charge is to conclude that Islam has something to hide and nobody should be telling others what goes on outside of Muslima's little world. No, I'm grateful to you for explaining to me, a reader, these nuances and in particular the point about Shiism.

The thing about Shiism is that in the Sunni world, consensus is king. At some point the Sunnis decided (mind you, not everyone agreed) that the gates of "ijtihad", the independent religious thinking based on interpreting and applying scripture, have closed. From that point on, the thinking went, there is no need for any more thinking, anything that had to be thought was already thought, now the business of the day was to apply the consensus. Mind you again, not everyone agrees with this version of events, but they did take place.

The Shia, now, have never followed that, and their principle was always pick the scholar (marjah) you like best and follow him.

This is why, for instance, Sunni Islam does not allow IVF with third-party donation and the Shia scholars figured out a way to make it OK. (Thanks, Mr. Sistani).

[Anonymous]

And this is what KSA teaches its students about Islam & slavery:
http://islamopediaonline.org/news/author-saudi-curriculums-advocates-slavery

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And this is what KSA teaches its students about Islam & slavery:
http://islamopediaonline.org/news/author-saudi-curriculums-advocates-slavery

There's a good piece in this week's New Yorker about slavery in Mauritania today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The topic of THIS thread is NOT "TELL ME ABOUT ISLAM."

I do not want to know much more about Islam other than the last two questions that I asked you that you simply cannot seem to answer when you seem to be so verbose about so much else.

You're very defensive, Muslima, they are simple questions. Speak the truth. Is that not something the Koran commands you to do among so many other things?

Did you even bother to read the opening post of this thread?

As far as your questions are concerned, they have been treated over and over, believe me, they are very "basic" questions. No need to go on and on about why I didn't answer as it is some sort of sacrilege. I can't keep repeating myself over and over. Like I told you in a previous post if you didn't get it then, you won't get it now. Repeating/doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity, I choose to stay sane!

You never provided any numbers to back up your claim that Islam in America (or anywhere) is growing more by conversion than by immigration. [Would you like to take that back, or acknowledge it was your opinion that isn't confirmed by actual statistics?

Go and bring the quote where I made that statement

Well I have to apologize since it seems it wasn't you, it was your passionate friend, posted at 00.27

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/120/405354.page

No worries, she hasn't brought the answer either.

You two seem to be close. Maybe you can figure something out?


I hope you see how outrageous claims like this make you two so...dismissable.

I am the OP and I am also the one who made the statement about Islam's growth and conversion rate. I am not close to Muslima and I do not know her offline. I have never communicated with her before all this began. But I agree with her for the most part. She's represented well on this and the other Islam thread. She is very knowledgeable and, just as a good Muslim should be, she never lost her temper. Too bad I'm not so good. lol But I stand behind my statements about conversion. I thought we addressed this on the other thread pages and pages ago. Yet here we are again, revisiting this topic.

Here are the reasons why I believe Islam IS the fastest growing religion on earth and why I think it's by conversion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion
Footnote 68/69 are the sources for the claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion by conversion. This is validated by the Guinness Book of World Records as well as the Carnegie Endowment for World Peace. Only the PEW people refute this and simply because they can't validate the numbers. The other groups seem to have no issue making this claim.

http://www.ibtimes.com/shamrock-crescent-islam-irelands-fastest-growing-religion-1557033
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Ireland. Immigration and population are mentioned but so is conversion as the reason.

Here is another report stating the same, that Islam is the fastest growing religion by conversion:
ww.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

And yet another source that exposes organizations that refute this statistic often turn out to be Christian missionary groups or Christian funded groups:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/yahya_ahmed/islam_fasting_growing_religion_world.htm

The UK reports that Islam is the fastest growing religion there too.
And even if you do not accept it's the fastest growing religion by conversion, apparently Christians are worried it's growing too fast and too many are converting, as evidenced by this report: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/why_are_westerners_converting.aspx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The topic of THIS thread is NOT "TELL ME ABOUT ISLAM."

I do not want to know much more about Islam other than the last two questions that I asked you that you simply cannot seem to answer when you seem to be so verbose about so much else.

You're very defensive, Muslima, they are simple questions. Speak the truth. Is that not something the Koran commands you to do among so many other things?

Did you even bother to read the opening post of this thread?

As far as your questions are concerned, they have been treated over and over, believe me, they are very "basic" questions. No need to go on and on about why I didn't answer as it is some sort of sacrilege. I can't keep repeating myself over and over. Like I told you in a previous post if you didn't get it then, you won't get it now. Repeating/doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity, I choose to stay sane!

You never provided any numbers to back up your claim that Islam in America (or anywhere) is growing more by conversion than by immigration. [Would you like to take that back, or acknowledge it was your opinion that isn't confirmed by actual statistics?

Go and bring the quote where I made that statement

Well I have to apologize since it seems it wasn't you, it was your passionate friend, posted at 00.27

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/120/405354.page

No worries, she hasn't brought the answer either.

You two seem to be close. Maybe you can figure something out?


I hope you see how outrageous claims like this make you two so...dismissable.

I am the OP and I am also the one who made the statement about Islam's growth and conversion rate. I am not close to Muslima and I do not know her offline. I have never communicated with her before all this began. But I agree with her for the most part. She's represented well on this and the other Islam thread. She is very knowledgeable and, just as a good Muslim should be, she never lost her temper. Too bad I'm not so good. lol But I stand behind my statements about conversion. I thought we addressed this on the other thread pages and pages ago. Yet here we are again, revisiting this topic.

Here are the reasons why I believe Islam IS the fastest growing religion on earth and why I think it's by conversion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion
Footnote 68/69 are the sources for the claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion by conversion. This is validated by the Guinness Book of World Records as well as the Carnegie Endowment for World Peace. Only the PEW people refute this and simply because they can't validate the numbers. The other groups seem to have no issue making this claim.

http://www.ibtimes.com/shamrock-crescent-islam-irelands-fastest-growing-religion-1557033
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Ireland. Immigration and population are mentioned but so is conversion as the reason.

Here is another report stating the same, that Islam is the fastest growing religion by conversion:
ww.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

And yet another source that exposes organizations that refute this statistic often turn out to be Christian missionary groups or Christian funded groups:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/yahya_ahmed/islam_fasting_growing_religion_world.htm

The UK reports that Islam is the fastest growing religion there too.
And even if you do not accept it's the fastest growing religion by conversion, apparently Christians are worried it's growing too fast and too many are converting, as evidenced by this report: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/why_are_westerners_converting.aspx

There's one large problem that I see when we discuss the growth of Islam- the penalty for leaving Islam is, at best, very severe. At worst, it is death, sometimes by the state. When you are discussing the rate of growth of something, you have to include the rate of loss, and we can't do that for Islam, because in many Muslim-majority countries, people who leave Islam must do so in secret. Even in the west, Muslims would have to deal with a lot of pressure from their family and social group. You better believe that in the Middle East, the fastest growing belief system right now is probably Atheism.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

No, you don't get it. Islam doesn't have religious authorities that are authorized to interpret the religion for all Muslims. You can find a few kooks or people on the Saudi payroll who might agree with you, but go to your local mosque and ask. You won't be told that concubines are acceptable. The comparison to alcohol and premarital sex is specious. The average Muslim, whether that individual engages in such things or not, will agree that they are forbidden by Islam. Ask the same individual about concubines, and you will also be told they are also forbidden. I question how much time you have spent among actual Muslims.

It is interesting that when it comes to Islam, you judge by its scripture (despite Muhammad's biography not being scripture). Yet, in the undeniable case of Hagar in the Christian and Jewish scripture, you raise the bar to require a recent ruling by a reputable scholar.

Question away, dear. I grew up in a Muslim community. I'm married to a Muslim. My children are Muslim. I am immersed in this environment beyond anything you can contemplate. But then again, we are just bozos on the internet to you.

What an average Muslim thinks about concubinage isn't relevant. What is relevant is what the learned people think. Yes, Islam doesn't have a central religious authority but I hope you wouldn't question that it has an abundance of scholars that issue opinions, or that these scholars find themselves sitting on their hands most of the time? Aren't there religious authorities? Where do people go for opinions? Do these places exist?

Why are people on the Saudi payroll wrong and the local mosque right? Both are singing the tune that's acceptable to their host countries.

Given that your children are Muslim and, according to you, Islam condones slavery and concubines, can we assume that your children are being taught that their religion condones slavery and concubines?

[Anonymous]

Oh it's you! Islamophobechristianevangelicalcrusader lady! Let's see what you brought. First, let us remind everyone again, what is was that you said, specifically.

"I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. "

Nothing, absolutely nothing you cited describes the growth of Islam in the U.S. by immigration and conversion, and proves that the former is higher than the latter.

No one talked about what the fastest-growing religion is. You made a specific claim - Islam in the U.S. grows by conversion, not by immigration. You brought nothing that confirms what you claimed. Sources stating Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world do absolutely nothing to support your claim.

Answering-christianity is a partisan Muslim source.

I'm not even going into the rants of "soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house." What's your definition of "soon"?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Given that your children are Muslim and, according to you, Islam condones slavery and concubines, can we assume that your children are being taught that their religion condones slavery and concubines?

You can assume that what my children are being taught will never be a part of this discussion.

Perhaps you'd like to bring some sources that Islam bans concubinage?

[Anonymous]

millions of christians live (or lived) in the middle east and not one of them has blown themselves up to kill other people. Same environment, same economy, same time period.

ISIL
Al Qaeda
Taliban
Boko Haram
al-Shabaab

What is the common denominator? All Islam based, All Kill Infidels.

Christian Terrorist groups that kill Infidels??????

This is NOT Racism, it is factual observations. And we are preparing for the next world war because of these groups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxzOVSMUrGM

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a different poster. My concern all along has been that Muslima and her alter ego make blanket assertions that themselves misrepresent the diversity in Islam you so correctly point out.

Muslima is certainly entitled to her own, personal Islam. You and I actually agree that there is no one interpretation of many Islamic tenets.

Except, IMO, she veers into much shadier territory when she claims things that are directly contradicted in the Quran. I'm not so worried about hadith and sharia, but the Quran is purportedly God's own words. So when she makes glowing claims about women's equality and female captives, do you see a problem with people pointing out what the Quran actually says about these issues? IMO, if only the glowing bits are presented, DCUM starts to look like a conversion effort and readers miss the range of Islamic thought you so correctly point out.

Of course you are free to take a contrary view.

Except then I get called a Christian-Evangelist-Crusader-Racist-Islamophobe. Isn't that a little concerning, too?

I don't read the other poster as telling Muslima what to believe. There's a big difference between telling Muslima what to believe, and explaining to the general audience of readers here the many gaps (deliberate? Who knows) in Muslima's presentation and where exactly she's out of step with her own holy book and the eminent theologians in her faith. The other PP is pretty knowledgeable about Islam, and she's explaining to all of us the huge range of thought across Islam that you agree exists. Whether or not Muslima is trying to win converts is something we can't know. I, for one, am grateful to the knowledgeable PP for widening my knowledge of Islam as it's practiced by a billion plus people. If explaining the wide range of Islam--again, we agree this range exists--is tantamount to a deliberate campaign to "spread a negative perception of Islam" (your words, or as a Muslim PP here would say, part of a racist-Christian-evangelist-Islamophobic crusade), then I don't know how we can even discuss Islam here.

I don't know you are directing this post to me. I have not called you a Christian-Evangelist-Crusader-Racist-Islamophobe. There are a lot of posters in this thread and it's a bit to tell one anonymous poster from another. But, there are clearly posters here who appear primarily committed to spreading negative information about Islam.

I think when someone picks a topic such as slavery or concubines and attempts to convey that this is an accepted and non-controversial practice that is unquestioned within the religion, when in fact very few adherents actually believe such a thing and there is quite a bit of debate among scholars, that poster is attempting to spread negative perceptions of Islam. If the poster was solely interested in providing broader perspective, the poster would not completely ignore common practice.

Islam, like any religion, is an easy target for criticism. It is fair to question its practices. But, just as I illustrated here with the example of Hagar, most posters here are not willing to subject mainstream Western religions to the same scrutiny. That suggests a certain basic lack of fairness.