Gifted in DCPS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Autocorrect changed DCUM to SCUM....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thnk its less about having a G/T program and more about pulling out the slowest/neediest kids from the class, so the class can be at appropriate grade level. Its no secret that DCPS is not allowed to hold back any kids in elem schoo. That really becomes a major issue in middle school. At the point, the kids are who just above average (and not truly gifted) become the top 10% when compared to a classmate who may be reading three grade levels behind. My mom is a teacher but luckily now retired, she said its inevitiable that with all the standardized testing the teacher must focus on the slowest kids and not "waste time" on the kids you know will test well. If DCPS just pulled those kids out of class, I think most parents would be quite happy that the classroom now could provide more grade appropriate challenging work.

But these "just above average" children might not test into a gifted program. So they would be left in class with students who are "grade levels behind," while the really advanced students would be in their own GT program.

I second the previous poster who was bemused by the fact that most DCUMers blithely assume their children will qualify for gifted programs.

[Anonymous]

"What I don't get is what are 3rd graders in GT Montgomery County and Baltimore getting that a normal classroom isn't getting? I mean that seriously. What are they doing in math in 3rd grade? Is it just curriculum? Smaller classes? I'm just not convinced of the benefits."

I agree. I don't think kids should be tested or selected for G&T during grade school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thnk its less about having a G/T program and more about pulling out the slowest/neediest kids from the class, so the class can be at appropriate grade level. Its no secret that DCPS is not allowed to hold back any kids in elem schoo. That really becomes a major issue in middle school. At the point, the kids are who just above average (and not truly gifted) become the top 10% when compared to a classmate who may be reading three grade levels behind. My mom is a teacher but luckily now retired, she said its inevitiable that with all the standardized testing the teacher must focus on the slowest kids and not "waste time" on the kids you know will test well. If DCPS just pulled those kids out of class, I think most parents would be quite happy that the classroom now could provide more grade appropriate challenging work.

But these "just above average" children might not test into a gifted program. So they would be left in class with students who are "grade levels behind," while the really advanced students would be in their own GT program.

I second the previous poster who was bemused by the fact that most DCUMers blithely assume their children will qualify for gifted programs.

You assume "most DCUMers" assume that. I don't think that's a valid assumption, I think it's more just a reflection of your own disdain of other posters. I happen to think most of us are pragmatic enough and know enough about statistics to know what 1% or 2% is and we don't really appreciate you insulting our intelligence. And regardless of whether one personally has a dog in the hunt or not with regard to their own kid it still makes sense to pursue G&T just as it makes sense to pursue Special Needs programs for those who need it, regardless of your own kid's needs. Please don't be so selfish, folks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"What I don't get is what are 3rd graders in GT Montgomery County and Baltimore getting that a normal classroom isn't getting? I mean that seriously. What are they doing in math in 3rd grade? Is it just curriculum? Smaller classes? I'm just not convinced of the benefits."

I agree. I don't think kids should be tested or selected for G&T during grade school.

Sorry, but this I really do not get. Do kids magically start learning only in 9th grade? Are AP classes a GT program?

I believe the point of GT (as opposed to accelerated learning for high performers) is to address asynchronous learning problems, where a child learns to hate a subject because it is worthless for far too long to ever become worthwhile again. Asynchronous learning is at its highest during the grade school years. In high school, there is a lot of leveling out, and the AP classes are fine. If anything, GT high schools offer very little other than selective demographics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What I don't get is what are 3rd graders in GT Montgomery County and Baltimore getting that a normal classroom isn't getting? I mean that seriously. What are they doing in math in 3rd grade? Is it just curriculum? Smaller classes? I'm just not convinced of the benefits."

I agree. I don't think kids should be tested or selected for G&T during grade school.

Sorry, but this I really do not get. Do kids magically start learning only in 9th grade? Are AP classes a GT program?

I believe the point of GT (as opposed to accelerated learning for high performers) is to address asynchronous learning problems, where a child learns to hate a subject because it is worthless for far too long to ever become worthwhile again. Asynchronous learning is at its highest during the grade school years. In high school, there is a lot of leveling out, and the AP classes are fine. If anything, GT high schools offer very little other than selective demographics.

No, AP classes are not G&T and no, it seems you don't really get it - it's not about selective demographics and where there are some individual developmental differences that do level out within the first few years of school, there is also statistically a distribution of capabilities and potential that changes far less. For example the kid that has tremendous math aptitude in grade school or middle school is not going to suddenly STOP learning - given the support, he is going to continue to progress rather than stopping while his peers catch up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What I don't get is what are 3rd graders in GT Montgomery County and Baltimore getting that a normal classroom isn't getting? I mean that seriously. What are they doing in math in 3rd grade? Is it just curriculum? Smaller classes? I'm just not convinced of the benefits."

I agree. I don't think kids should be tested or selected for G&T during grade school.

Sorry, but this I really do not get. Do kids magically start learning only in 9th grade? Are AP classes a GT program?

I believe the point of GT (as opposed to accelerated learning for high performers) is to address asynchronous learning problems, where a child learns to hate a subject because it is worthless for far too long to ever become worthwhile again. Asynchronous learning is at its highest during the grade school years. In high school, there is a lot of leveling out, and the AP classes are fine. If anything, GT high schools offer very little other than selective demographics.

No, AP classes are not G&T and no, it seems you don't really get it - it's not about selective demographics and where there are some individual developmental differences that do level out within the first few years of school, there is also statistically a distribution of capabilities and potential that changes far less. For example the kid that has tremendous math aptitude in grade school or middle school is not going to suddenly STOP learning - given the support, he is going to continue to progress rather than stopping while his peers catch up.

PP here, yes, this is also inferred in my post. I didn't say kids stop learning at 9th -- that would be moronic.

The thing is, the argument is always about not providing anything more than is currently offered, either because it is too expensive (ha!), or all kids needing more are just snowflakes whose parents exaggerate the kids' abilities.

Young children, far more than older children, are the ones who cannot fight for their own needs. If material is not presented at the level they need, when they need it, then we have failed them.

Waiting until 9th is absurd. The arguments for it make no sense whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thnk its less about having a G/T program and more about pulling out the slowest/neediest kids from the class, so the class can be at appropriate grade level. Its no secret that DCPS is not allowed to hold back any kids in elem schoo. That really becomes a major issue in middle school. At the point, the kids are who just above average (and not truly gifted) become the top 10% when compared to a classmate who may be reading three grade levels behind. My mom is a teacher but luckily now retired, she said its inevitiable that with all the standardized testing the teacher must focus on the slowest kids and not "waste time" on the kids you know will test well. If DCPS just pulled those kids out of class, I think most parents would be quite happy that the classroom now could provide more grade appropriate challenging work.

But these "just above average" children might not test into a gifted program. So they would be left in class with students who are "grade levels behind," while the really advanced students would be in their own GT program.

I second the previous poster who was bemused by the fact that most DCUMers blithely assume their children will qualify for gifted programs.

You assume "most DCUMers" assume that. I don't think that's a valid assumption, I think it's more just a reflection of your own disdain of other posters. I happen to think most of us are pragmatic enough and know enough about statistics to know what 1% or 2% is and we don't really appreciate you insulting our intelligence. And regardless of whether one personally has a dog in the hunt or not with regard to their own kid it still makes sense to pursue G&T just as it makes sense to pursue Special Needs programs for those who need it, regardless of your own kid's needs. Please don't be so selfish, folks.

I don't think you all understand what I was saying. I wasn't advocating for a G/T--more just to pull out the slowest kids so the class can teach at the appropriate pace and level. I think some folks truly do not want to admit how far behind some of the kids are in DCPS and yet they get shuffled along each year. I dont think its helpful for a kid who reads at grade level to be stuck in a classroom with a kid who barely reads at all. And yes that happens. There is a reason DC had to start "Twilight" academies for some 9th graders. They got to highschool and oh shit, they had skill levels on par with elem school and susprise, they acted out or dropped out. Call me crazy but having those kids in with my average kid year after year is poor planning. I don't need my kid pulled out of class, I need the slow learners pulled out or held back. Its not my kids job to tutor the other kids or sit there bored doing worksheet after worksheet while a teacher devotes time to some of these kids.

[Anonymous]

PP--that's why DCPS has what are known as "Ninth Grade Academies" for both on grade level and below grade level students. They're at all of the comprehensive DCPS high schools minus CHEC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You assume "most DCUMers" assume that. I don't think that's a valid assumption, I think it's more just a reflection of your own disdain of other posters. I happen to think most of us are pragmatic enough and know enough about statistics to know what 1% or 2% is and we don't really appreciate you insulting our intelligence. And regardless of whether one personally has a dog in the hunt or not with regard to their own kid it still makes sense to pursue G&T just as it makes sense to pursue Special Needs programs for those who need it, regardless of your own kid's needs. Please don't be so selfish, folks.

I find the analogy to Special Needs interesting. Most parents that have kids with special needs work hard to ensure that their kids are mainstreamed while receiving the specialized services they need to succeed in school. Why are gifted programs always about removing gifted kids from the general population? Is there research that supports this strategy as being in the best interest of the gifted student or in the best interest of the school population as a whole?

I know an extremely gifted child at my son's school. His parents are more concerned about their son's social skills than his academics and I don't know that a magnet school would help with his issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thnk its less about having a G/T program and more about pulling out the slowest/neediest kids from the class, so the class can be at appropriate grade level. Its no secret that DCPS is not allowed to hold back any kids in elem schoo. That really becomes a major issue in middle school. At the point, the kids are who just above average (and not truly gifted) become the top 10% when compared to a classmate who may be reading three grade levels behind. My mom is a teacher but luckily now retired, she said its inevitiable that with all the standardized testing the teacher must focus on the slowest kids and not "waste time" on the kids you know will test well. If DCPS just pulled those kids out of class, I think most parents would be quite happy that the classroom now could provide more grade appropriate challenging work.

But these "just above average" children might not test into a gifted program. So they would be left in class with students who are "grade levels behind," while the really advanced students would be in their own GT program.

I second the previous poster who was bemused by the fact that most DCUMers blithely assume their children will qualify for gifted programs.

You assume "most DCUMers" assume that. I don't think that's a valid assumption, I think it's more just a reflection of your own disdain of other posters. I happen to think most of us are pragmatic enough and know enough about statistics to know what 1% or 2% is and we don't really appreciate you insulting our intelligence. And regardless of whether one personally has a dog in the hunt or not with regard to their own kid it still makes sense to pursue G&T just as it makes sense to pursue Special Needs programs for those who need it, regardless of your own kid's needs. Please don't be so selfish, folks.

I don't think you all understand what I was saying. I wasn't advocating for a G/T--more just to pull out the slowest kids so the class can teach at the appropriate pace and level. I think some folks truly do not want to admit how far behind some of the kids are in DCPS and yet they get shuffled along each year. I dont think its helpful for a kid who reads at grade level to be stuck in a classroom with a kid who barely reads at all. And yes that happens. There is a reason DC had to start "Twilight" academies for some 9th graders. They got to highschool and oh shit, they had skill levels on par with elem school and susprise, they acted out or dropped out. Call me crazy but having those kids in with my average kid year after year is poor planning. I don't need my kid pulled out of class, I need the slow learners pulled out or held back. Its not my kids job to tutor the other kids or sit there bored doing worksheet after worksheet while a teacher devotes time to some of these kids.

Specialized support for the lowest-performing percentage of kids is one thing and I think it needs to happen - but it's separate from specialized support for the most advanced percentage of kids, which also should happen. Currently either end of the spectrum gets ignored and cannot develop to their fullest potential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You assume "most DCUMers" assume that. I don't think that's a valid assumption, I think it's more just a reflection of your own disdain of other posters. I happen to think most of us are pragmatic enough and know enough about statistics to know what 1% or 2% is and we don't really appreciate you insulting our intelligence. And regardless of whether one personally has a dog in the hunt or not with regard to their own kid it still makes sense to pursue G&T just as it makes sense to pursue Special Needs programs for those who need it, regardless of your own kid's needs. Please don't be so selfish, folks.

I find the analogy to Special Needs interesting. Most parents that have kids with special needs work hard to ensure that their kids are mainstreamed while receiving the specialized services they need to succeed in school. Why are gifted programs always about removing gifted kids from the general population? Is there research that supports this strategy as being in the best interest of the gifted student or in the best interest of the school population as a whole?

I know an extremely gifted child at my son's school. His parents are more concerned about their son's social skills than his academics and I don't know that a magnet school would help with his issues.

I don't think anyone here is specifically advocating for separating G&T kids out. I think the arguments of numbers were put out there to demonstrate that there is definitely a sufficient critical mass of kids across the DCPS and DC PCS system to merit taking a serious look at G&T. If DCPS can justify keeping a school with 400 kids open, then they damn sure could justify a G&T program that would support 1500 students.

But that said, mainstreaming is less of an issue for G&T as the reasons for mainstreaming special needs (socialization and adaptation to become high-functioning). I think any idea of specialized schools would be more a question of things like test-in STEM magnets or other types of advanced specialty focus areas in academics which are broader and not necessarily specific to G&T. Whether specifically geared toward G&T or not, those types of offerings would meet a huge demand as well.

[Anonymous]

whatever