Gifted in DCPS

[Anonymous]

If people want a "real" GT program in DCPS (as compared to a fake one??) then why don't they talk to Kaya Henderson instead of bitching on here about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Are you saying that Black people have low IQs? Damn, all these closet bigots come out in full force behind a computer screen.

That's not actually even open for debate; blacks score lower on IQ tests by about 1 standard deviation when compared to whites. I.e. the average IQ of blacks in the US is ~85 compared to ~100 for whites. What's often debated is whether the tests are biased towards/against certain groups and whether these differences stem from cultural differences, historical racism or are driven mostly by genetics.

Whoah. Let's get this conversation aimed back toward reality.

High-IQ is probably a very tiny part genetics, and more a function of random deviation, no different than, say a child's height. Siblings in the same family may have very different IQs. The other aspect of it is if the raw intelligence capability that a child is born with is able to be developed and matured to a point where it can be advantageous where it comes to IQ scores or academics - and there, genetics and race probably have far less to do with it than culture and environment. Witness, for example, the Asian "tiger mom" driving achievement and performance or the competetive, A-type WASPy "keeping up with the Joneses" phenomenon. There are certainly many high-performing AAs out there as well - who likewise typically came from a very motivated and driven household. That's the culture piece - for the environment piece, look to studies on environmental justice, where often you will find polluting industries situated on cheaper, less-desirable real-estate - which is often also where low-income residences are located, and there are many industrial pollutants that can impact development, cause birth defects, neurological problems, et cetera.

That's far closer to reality. So please, let's get off this track of screaming racism or suggestions that people here are saying abhorrent things, like that blacks genetically have low IQ.

Lots of literature out there on both sides; I'm not trying to argue WHY they have these differences. I'm merely pointing out that any program which uses a test as a proxy for IQ will skew very very heavily white in DC. DC has the largest white/black achievement difference in the US based on NAEP tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Are you saying that Black people have low IQs? Damn, all these closet bigots come out in full force behind a computer screen.

That's not actually even open for debate; blacks score lower on IQ tests by about 1 standard deviation when compared to whites. I.e. the average IQ of blacks in the US is ~85 compared to ~100 for whites. What's often debated is whether the tests are biased towards/against certain groups and whether these differences stem from cultural differences, historical racism or are driven mostly by genetics.

Whoah. Let's get this conversation aimed back toward reality.

High-IQ is probably a very tiny part genetics, and more a function of random deviation, no different than, say a child's height. Siblings in the same family may have very different IQs. The other aspect of it is if the raw intelligence capability that a child is born with is able to be developed and matured to a point where it can be advantageous where it comes to IQ scores or academics - and there, genetics and race probably have far less to do with it than culture and environment. Witness, for example, the Asian "tiger mom" driving achievement and performance or the competetive, A-type WASPy "keeping up with the Joneses" phenomenon. There are certainly many high-performing AAs out there as well - who likewise typically came from a very motivated and driven household. That's the culture piece - for the environment piece, look to studies on environmental justice, where often you will find polluting industries situated on cheaper, less-desirable real-estate - which is often also where low-income residences are located, and there are many industrial pollutants that can impact development, cause birth defects, neurological problems, et cetera.

That's far closer to reality. So please, let's get off this track of screaming racism or suggestions that people here are saying abhorrent things, like that blacks genetically have low IQ.

Lots of literature out there on both sides; I'm not trying to argue WHY they have these differences. I'm merely pointing out that any program which uses a test as a proxy for IQ will skew very very heavily white in DC. DC has the largest white/black achievement difference in the US based on NAEP tests.

Black achievement is typical for many other cities but white achievement is higher than normal - probably because many white kids are from families that are transplants with parents who themselves are highly educated and high achieving.

But remember - the skew still doesn't universally mean that white or asian = high IQ or high-performing, either. Regardless of race, culture or SES, it's still just a small percentage of any demographic that ends up testing as gifted. It's still not as though anyone would be creating a special program just for whites or asians regardless of whatever perception one might have from the skew.

There are ways to close up the gaps in achievement - and those DO need to happen. There are ways to address community issues, environmental justice and many other factors that affect achievement and cause problems - some are easier, some are more difficult fixes and will take time. Meanwhile, implementing a G&T program is a cheap and relatively quick and easy thing to implement while other solutions are pursued - and will also serve as an opportunity added for black G&T students. The fixes don't have to be done sequentially, they can and should be pursued concurrently. So, why hold back on G&T? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If people want a "real" GT program in DCPS (as compared to a fake one??) then why don't they talk to Kaya Henderson instead of bitching on here about it?

Kaya's office knows damn well people want this - if not, they are totally out of touch and need to be fired, because it's come up again and again and again. They are just dragging their heels and moving at the usual glacial DCPS pace. And meanwhile, the charters, privates and school districts in the burbs keep eating DCPS's lunch because of it.

[Anonymous]

Well, they have the application high schools, Banneker, SWW... and they have the demographics people can live with: Majority AA or 85% AA in Banneker's case.

Banneker's Avg SAT scores for 2013: 1466

http://benjaminbanneker.k12.dc.us/about_bbahs.html


SWW Avg Sat scores for 2013: 1706

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/local/highschoolchallenge/schools/2013/list/local/school-without-walls-washington-dc/


Not exactly impressive for magnets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, they have the application high schools, Banneker, SWW... and they have the demographics people can live with: Majority AA or 85% AA in Banneker's case.

Banneker's Avg SAT scores for 2013: 1466

http://benjaminbanneker.k12.dc.us/about_bbahs.html


SWW Avg Sat scores for 2013: 1706

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/local/highschoolchallenge/schools/2013/list/local/school-without-walls-washington-dc/


Not exactly impressive for magnets.

Demonstrates how DCPS continues to miss the mark.

[Anonymous]

I must be the only person on DCUM who does not assume my kid would get into a G&T program if one existed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I must be the only person on DCUM who does not assume my kid would get into a G&T program if one existed.

Since when is everyone on SCUM on this thread? They aren't.
And who said anything about it being a given that your kid will get in?
And if the argument is that we shouldn't have a program just because your kid might not get in, then it's a lame one. By that same logic, apparently schools shouldn't have football teams either, because not every child will make it on the team.

[Anonymous]

Autocorrect changed DCUM to SCUM....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Autocorrect changed DCUM to SCUM....

Huh, autocorrect got it right for once!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I must be the only person on DCUM who does not assume my kid would get into a G&T program if one existed.

Since when is everyone on SCUM on this thread? They aren't.
And who said anything about it being a given that your kid will get in?
And if the argument is that we shouldn't have a program just because your kid might not get in, then it's a lame one. By that same logic, apparently schools shouldn't have football teams either, because not every child will make it on the team.

Right - School athletics programs tend to disproportionately skew in favor of AA kids. Since we don't like disproportionate skew along racial lines favoring Asian kids, and therefore people think we shouldn't have G&T programs because of that, apparently that means we should get rid of school athletics programs too.

If one skew is justifiable then so is the other. The pushback on G&T programs given everything else out there really doesn't hold water. And reading through this thread, looks like every other argument against G&T has also been blown out of the water.

It's time, DCPS needs to move forward with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I must be the only person on DCUM who does not assume my kid would get into a G&T program if one existed.

What I don't get is what are 3rd graders in GT Montgomery County and Baltimore getting that a normal classroom isn't getting? I mean that seriously. What are they doing in math in 3rd grade? Is it just curriculum? Smaller classes? I'm just not convinced of the benefits.

[Anonymous]

I thnk its less about having a G/T program and more about pulling out the slowest/neediest kids from the class, so the class can be at appropriate grade level. Its no secret that DCPS is not allowed to hold back any kids in elem schoo. That really becomes a major issue in middle school. At the point, the kids are who just above average (and not truly gifted) become the top 10% when compared to a classmate who may be reading three grade levels behind. My mom is a teacher but luckily now retired, she said its inevitiable that with all the standardized testing the teacher must focus on the slowest kids and not "waste time" on the kids you know will test well. If DCPS just pulled those kids out of class, I think most parents would be quite happy that the classroom now could provide more grade appropriate challenging work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
If one skew is justifiable then so is the other. The pushback on G&T programs given everything else out there really doesn't hold water. And reading through this thread, looks like every other argument against G&T has also been blown out of the water.

It's time, DCPS needs to move forward with this.

Let's stop violently agreeing with one another. People on this thread are trying to explain why DC does not have such programs DESPITE there being no principled argument against them.

Across the country, white and especially asian kids are over-represented in G&T relative to the general population, and black and hispanic are under-represented. This would be even more pronounced in DC where the white/black achievement gap is the largest in the country. (we are not talking about genetics here, so please, no more trolling. we are talking about who gets accepted into G&T programs for whatever reasons.)

I imagine in San Francisco this is not a political problem, because the majority of the population is white or asian anyway, so the racial composition of the G&T programs more or less reflects the general population. In Fairfax, with Jefferson 50% asian and the rest white (less than 4% black or hispanic), it doesn't seem to be a political problem. But in DC, this would be a political problem. The majority of public school families and Democratic Party primary voters are African American.

This city does not have easy race relations. There is fear/resentment about gentrification, "The Plan", being "pushed out". The Post recently published some polling results showing the racial divide. A strong majority of white voters polled believed they would benefit from the changes happening in DC. Whereas a (small) majority of African Americans believed the opposite. These voters believe that the city's (black) leaders are abandoning them. We can debate the objective truth or falsehood of these beliefs but these are the polling results and if there is anything that captures a politician's attention it is polling results.

So when the mayor poses for that photo opportunity in front of the new G&T class, with all those white/asian faces, how is that going to play out in this broader context? Will the mayor be praised for improving the school system? Or will he be labeled a "sell-out", "out of touch", and suffer Fenty's fate?

Think about why it would have been politically impossible to introduce a streetcar on H St without simultaneously introducing one in Anacostia, as they have done.

On a more positive note, maybe the streetcar example shows us the way forward. If a G&T program were introduced simultaneously with measures expected to benefit Wards 7/8, it might have a chance of success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If one skew is justifiable then so is the other. The pushback on G&T programs given everything else out there really doesn't hold water. And reading through this thread, looks like every other argument against G&T has also been blown out of the water.

It's time, DCPS needs to move forward with this.

Let's stop violently agreeing with one another. People on this thread are trying to explain why DC does not have such programs DESPITE there being no principled argument against them.

Across the country, white and especially asian kids are over-represented in G&T relative to the general population, and black and hispanic are under-represented. This would be even more pronounced in DC where the white/black achievement gap is the largest in the country. (we are not talking about genetics here, so please, no more trolling. we are talking about who gets accepted into G&T programs for whatever reasons.)

I imagine in San Francisco this is not a political problem, because the majority of the population is white or asian anyway, so the racial composition of the G&T programs more or less reflects the general population. In Fairfax, with Jefferson 50% asian and the rest white (less than 4% black or hispanic), it doesn't seem to be a political problem. But in DC, this would be a political problem. The majority of public school families and Democratic Party primary voters are African American.

This city does not have easy race relations. There is fear/resentment about gentrification, "The Plan", being "pushed out". The Post recently published some polling results showing the racial divide. A strong majority of white voters polled believed they would benefit from the changes happening in DC. Whereas a (small) majority of African Americans believed the opposite. These voters believe that the city's (black) leaders are abandoning them. We can debate the objective truth or falsehood of these beliefs but these are the polling results and if there is anything that captures a politician's attention it is polling results.

So when the mayor poses for that photo opportunity in front of the new G&T class, with all those white/asian faces, how is that going to play out in this broader context? Will the mayor be praised for improving the school system? Or will he be labeled a "sell-out", "out of touch", and suffer Fenty's fate?

Think about why it would have been politically impossible to introduce a streetcar on H St without simultaneously introducing one in Anacostia, as they have done.

On a more positive note, maybe the streetcar example shows us the way forward. If a G&T program were introduced simultaneously with measures expected to benefit Wards 7/8, it might have a chance of success.

Pessimism vs. optimism. Gentrification and development brings jobs, economic opportunities, tax base and better infrastructure, and other things that benefit all across the board. It's exactly the "rising tide to lift all boats" that everyone keeps saying is needed to help the poor in DC. But instead there's been divisive rhetoric and "us vs. them" which has been destructive and counterproductive. Politics at its worst.