Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony

[Anonymous]

Folks,
911 folks are trained how to handle non-emergency calls. Of course it makes sense to call the non-emergency number in the event of a non-emergency, but if someone errs, it's not exactly an emergency. I don't think the 911 folks will call 911.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that 911 is only for life threatening emergencies is wrong. How do I know it? The MoCo police say so:

http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/POL/districts/MSB/communications/911/pdf_files/911_Brochure.pdf

Strangely enough, they don't suggest calling 911 if you see a car that has broken down, or even if you see a man strike a dog.

Strangely enough, nothing the Apple Store employees heard sounded like a broken down car or a man striking a dog. Have you forgotten what the point of this thread is?

[Anonymous]

8:45 - pipe down.

They need another line (811?) for "in case of" emergency calls.

[Anonymous]

People like you, who are dickering over whether or not it is okay to call 911 in case of something that seems like it MIGHT be an emergency are why folks second guess themselves. Maybe you should STFU, before you convince yet another person not to make the call when she's not 100 percent sure. We've seen how that works out. God, it's like seeing pickpocketing at an execution. There is NO PROBLEM with people calling 911 too much in this country. The opposite is true. People keep their heads down and are afraid to get involved, or think someone else has handled it, or second-guess themselves.

BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY!

[Anonymous]

Seriously. The 911 operators are trained to deal with whatever the call is. I called 911 on a highway once because there was debris in the road. Was it an emergency? No, but it could have been one. I called and quickly said it was NOT an emergency and explained the issue. They routed me to the state police, who said that (shockingly) others had called and they knew exactly where I was talking about. If in doubt, just CALL!! It could have saved this woman's life. If it was nothing, the MoCo police would have shown up and left.

[Anonymous]

I think we may be judging the Apple employees too harshly. We have to remember we are viewing this with the benefit of hindsight. Really, in downtown Bethesda on a Friday night when there's a lot of foot traffic, would you ever in a million years believe two women yelling at each other equates to one of them being brutally murdered? It was so outside the realm of possibility, they probably never imagined something was seriously wrong. And again, I posted earlier, that the employees DID alert the security guards and asked them to investigate (a totally appropriate response, imo, so as not to put themselves in harm's way). It's so easy to play Monday morning quarterback but unfair to do so. In terms of living with themselves, it's not their fault. Let's remember, the only person who killed Jayna, was Brittney Norwood. We should direct our anger at her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we may be judging the Apple employees too harshly. We have to remember we are viewing this with the benefit of hindsight. Really, in downtown Bethesda on a Friday night when there's a lot of foot traffic, would you ever in a million years believe two women yelling at each other equates to one of them being brutally murdered? It was so outside the realm of possibility, they probably never imagined something was seriously wrong. And again, I posted earlier, that the employees DID alert the security guards and asked them to investigate (a totally appropriate response, imo, so as not to put themselves in harm's way). It's so easy to play Monday morning quarterback but unfair to do so. In terms of living with themselves, it's not their fault. Let's remember, the only person who killed Jayna, was Brittney Norwood. We should direct our anger at her.

No, but it's not beyond the scope of possibility that the store was being robbed.

[Anonymous]

Haven't had a chance to read all the comments so what I'm saying may be a repeat of what others have said.

I have also been haunted by the testimony of the Apple employees and want to condemn them but rather than spending a lot of time condemning them, we should use this incident to remind ourselves to err on the side of caution in the event something like this happens to us. Sometimes it's hard to know what to do and it's difficult to pick up the phone and call 911. But we should call and deal with the possibility of embarrassment later if it was nothing.

Let's all promise ourselves that we will call.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sickens me!! And now the defense us trying to use this fact to prove that the killing happened so quickly that it couldn't have been premeditated - because if it was long and drawn out, the apple employees surely would have intervened. Don't know how those defense attorneys sleep at night.
And how the apple employees can live with themselves.

I think one of the major problems is that nobody wants to get involved. I've called CPS a couple times and the police once about blatant repetitive neglect of children in my neighborhood. Other neighbors talk and bitch about it, but I don't think that anybody has called CPS/Police.

This Lululemon/Apple incident is similar. That is one of the ills of modern, anonymous society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Haven't had a chance to read all the comments so what I'm saying may be a repeat of what others have said.

I have also been haunted by the testimony of the Apple employees and want to condemn them but rather than spending a lot of time condemning them, we should use this incident to remind ourselves to err on the side of caution in the event something like this happens to us. Sometimes it's hard to know what to do and it's difficult to pick up the phone and call 911. But we should call and deal with the possibility of embarrassment later if it was nothing.

Let's all promise ourselves that we will call.

Yes. I completely agree. I sit here thinking - there is no way that I would not have called in that situation. But the problem is that we all know the outcome already, so our feelings of what we would have done are influenced by that. If ever in a similar situation, though, I hope I will remember what happened to poor Jayna and err on the side of doing something - anything. I'd much rather live with embarrassment than the thought that I could have potentially saved a person's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People like you, who are dickering over whether or not it is okay to call 911 in case of something that seems like it MIGHT be an emergency are why folks second guess themselves. Maybe you should STFU, before you convince yet another person not to make the call when she's not 100 percent sure. We've seen how that works out. God, it's like seeing pickpocketing at an execution. There is NO PROBLEM with people calling 911 too much in this country. The opposite is true. People keep their heads down and are afraid to get involved, or think someone else has handled it, or second-guess themselves.

BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY!

Again - everyone on this thread has agreed that they should have called 911, and most people have said that they would have. One person gave the example of her very important 911 calls, and people have pointed out there are better ways to handle such non-emergencies.

And there is a HUGE problem with people calling 911 too much in this country. Really. Google it. Someone upthread claimed that there are fees for the overuse of the non-emergency number. I cannot find a single example of a municipality that does that. There are, however, numerous examples of charging for too many 911 calls (e.g., Anchorage charges $500 after the 8th call in a year). Moreover, there are news stories galore about getting a busy signal when you call 911, as well as numerous stories about how we trying to revise systems in this country so people don't call 911 for run-of-the-mill problems. Sure, the people tell you to call when in doubt. But as a former worker in emergency response (albeit not a 911 dispatcher), I can assure you that they are rolling their eyes at your interpretation of emergency.

[Anonymous]

Calling 911 for a weather report or to request a phone number is misuse.
Calling 911 for a crime that has already happened is okay (DC TELLS YOU TO DO THIS)
Calling 911 if you think someone may need help is absolutely, positively okay.

While I get that some of you have a point that 911 calls can be overused, it is there to be used. If citizens spent valuable time thinking and second guessing themselves whether or not a situation is 911 worthy, you will absolutely create a system where some folks who need help do not get it. For instance, several years ago an elderly, disheveled white man was walking up and down my H street neighborhood shouting racial epithets. Was he assaulting anyone? No. Is noise pollution a crime? Well, yes, but not really an emergency. We dialed 911, and they sent a car right over. While nobody was being hurt, it was clear this man needed help (if nothing else he needed help shutting his foolish mouth, but it turns out that he was a mentally ill veteran with PTSD who had escaped the care of his family. They were thankful that someone intervened.

So, is this different from calling to report a dog being beaten? Maybe it seems so. But animal cruelty is actually a crime, so by calling 911 PP is reporting a crime in progress. The woman on the side of the street who is shuffling along with a blanket? Well, maybe some of you say MYOB, because she's probably just homeless (aka "disposable" to some of you). However, she might need help.

My father suffered an embolism and was put on blood thinners, and later suffered a fall. He was at work talking absolute nonsense all day and nobody said anything. One of his coworkers said "we thought maybe he was drunk." Drunk! My dad does not drink and there would be no reason for anyone to think that! Later, he was wandering around the campus of his office, staggering and clearly having some sort of trouble. Dozens of people passed him by, and later said yeah, we just thought he was some crazy drunk guy. My stepmom got so worried that she drove to his office when he never came home. She found him wandering the parking lot looking for his car. Thank god, he lived, though he had suffered a massive, massive brain bleed and required multiple surgeries. He recovered most of his brain function but will never truly be the same again.

So listen the fuck up, people: when in doubt, call 911. If the line is being tied up, it means we don't have enough operators. That's a problem but the solution isn't not making the call and regretting it (or having someone else regret it) later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the most I heard was an argument, I would not call the police. Even if I heard the sounds of an actual fight between women, I would probably not call the police. I WOULD call the police if I heard someone say/shout "Help me" or if I heard screaming that's associated with pain. (Most people don't scream out during a fist fight).

This, of course, is not Murray's fault AT ALL, but I'm curious why she didn't scream for help rather than plead with psycho Norwood.

Maybe Murray's instincts told her that screaming might make Norwood more aggressive, enraged, crazy than she was in that instance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Calling 911 for a weather report or to request a phone number is misuse.
Calling 911 for a crime that has already happened is okay (DC TELLS YOU TO DO THIS)
Calling 911 if you think someone may need help is absolutely, positively okay.

While I get that some of you have a point that 911 calls can be overused, it is there to be used. If citizens spent valuable time thinking and second guessing themselves whether or not a situation is 911 worthy, you will absolutely create a system where some folks who need help do not get it. For instance, several years ago an elderly, disheveled white man was walking up and down my H street neighborhood shouting racial epithets. Was he assaulting anyone? No. Is noise pollution a crime? Well, yes, but not really an emergency. We dialed 911, and they sent a car right over. While nobody was being hurt, it was clear this man needed help (if nothing else he needed help shutting his foolish mouth, but it turns out that he was a mentally ill veteran with PTSD who had escaped the care of his family. They were thankful that someone intervened.

So, is this different from calling to report a dog being beaten? Maybe it seems so. But animal cruelty is actually a crime, so by calling 911 PP is reporting a crime in progress. The woman on the side of the street who is shuffling along with a blanket? Well, maybe some of you say MYOB, because she's probably just homeless (aka "disposable" to some of you). However, she might need help.

My father suffered an embolism and was put on blood thinners, and later suffered a fall. He was at work talking absolute nonsense all day and nobody said anything. One of his coworkers said "we thought maybe he was drunk." Drunk! My dad does not drink and there would be no reason for anyone to think that! Later, he was wandering around the campus of his office, staggering and clearly having some sort of trouble. Dozens of people passed him by, and later said yeah, we just thought he was some crazy drunk guy. My stepmom got so worried that she drove to his office when he never came home. She found him wandering the parking lot looking for his car. Thank god, he lived, though he had suffered a massive, massive brain bleed and required multiple surgeries. He recovered most of his brain function but will never truly be the same again.

So listen the fuck up, people: when in doubt, call 911. If the line is being tied up, it means we don't have enough operators. That's a problem but the solution isn't not making the call and regretting it (or having someone else regret it) later.

+1

[Anonymous]

I don't know what to say other than I hope we have all learned something here - take some action when you think something isn't right, err on the side of caution, teach your kids to take responsibility and get involved, use some common sense when deciding to MYOB or get involved, don't be embarrassed to do something, take charge, don't expect someone else to do the right thing when you have the opportunity to do the right thing.
I am sorry for those Apple employees, but I think they were absolutely wrong and if they have any conscience at all they will be dealing with this for a very long time.