UK, Italy, France quality decline, now poorer than all 50 states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:France has higher and more evenly distributed median household income. So the average person is arguably better off in France. But the socialism that ensures that has probably restricted their growth in terms of industry and technology, which we have in abundance, thanks to the 1%, but whose benefit does not trickle down to our majority. It’s a tricky dance to encourage free markets but also encourage benefits for all. No one has a perfect model for this.

French median income is 23k euros a year, or $27,000. American median income is $63,000. Median means half make more, half makes less.

Income is a narrow measure. Life expectancy in France is 4.7 years higher than in the USA and 9 years higher than in Alabama and France has much higher literacy than the USA (#PaulKrugman). They also have far more vacation time and mandated parental leave of approximately 1 year where the USA has none.

So you now don't deny Americans are much richer? You're just coming up with different metrics, aka changing goalposts. I have no idea what literacy rates means in this context. It's a straw man argument that serves no real purpose beyond a misleading "gotcha" that also tells us nothing. I delved into the matter and it seems more complex than you might think. France boasts a 99% literary rate, officially, but at same time French reports acknowledges at least 10% of adults struggle with basic literacy and as many as 28% score below level 1 in literacy, meaning they struggle with complex information. Which means using the American definition of literacy, its not really that different. And I don't doubt that a lot of it also comes down to how each country captures its ESL populations.

The point about life expectancy is real and the only serious one worth exploring. Americans by and large have national problems with obesity and chronic diseases. But those reflect lifestyle, not a failure of health care.

That lower life expectancy in the USA is not linked to structural issues with our health care system, is your opinion, not a fact, and not a particularly well-educated opinion. Try reading some actual research articles that link Americans' lower life expectancy to access to health care:

https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/whats-behind-shocking-u-s-life-expectancy-decline-and-what-to-do-about-it/
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/

NP-I think this is very mixed data. The US has fewer GPs, but also more specialist options. In many countries you use a GP for most things because there is a shortages of specialists and you need a very strong reason to be allowed to see one to not overburden the system. In the US you can bypass all that and see five specialists for your personal needs, and no GP.

And many of the data points are more indicative of a population in poorer general health, which affects outcomes, than of poor medical care. Mortality is lower for heart attacks and strokes, and post op complications which also goes in that sense. Pregnancy and complications are affected by the health of the mother. ER data is more about cost than outcomes. Canada has a greater problem in that area, due to doctor shortages rather than cost.

[Anonymous]

The poorest state in the US (Mississippi) was the only state poorer than the richest country in Europe (Germany) as of a year ago. Maybe it has now surpassed, so that even old Mississippi is richer than the richest country in Europe:
https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/01/03/the-poorest-us-state-rivals-germany-gdp-per-capita-in-the-us-and-europe

The standard of living is high in the US. When a heat wave hits Paris, you hear of scores of people dying due to lack of A/C. We just don't have things like that here because we can afford these items.

Of course all is not perfect in the US by far, but there's an old saying:

The US is a great place to be rich, and a horrible place to be poor. Europe is a horrible place to be rich, and a great place to be poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:France has higher and more evenly distributed median household income. So the average person is arguably better off in France. But the socialism that ensures that has probably restricted their growth in terms of industry and technology, which we have in abundance, thanks to the 1%, but whose benefit does not trickle down to our majority. It’s a tricky dance to encourage free markets but also encourage benefits for all. No one has a perfect model for this.

French median income is 23k euros a year, or $27,000. American median income is $63,000. Median means half make more, half makes less.

Income is a narrow measure. Life expectancy in France is 4.7 years higher than in the USA and 9 years higher than in Alabama and France has much higher literacy than the USA (#PaulKrugman). They also have far more vacation time and mandated parental leave of approximately 1 year where the USA has none.

Alabama and France do not have comparable ethnic demographics. It's a false comparison.

It's not false, it's data. That you don't think that the low life expectancy of black and brown people is worth considering is indicative of your worldview.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The poorest state in the US (Mississippi) was the only state poorer than the richest country in Europe (Germany) as of a year ago. Maybe it has now surpassed, so that even old Mississippi is richer than the richest country in Europe:
https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/01/03/the-poorest-us-state-rivals-germany-gdp-per-capita-in-the-us-and-europe

The standard of living is high in the US. When a heat wave hits Paris, you hear of scores of people dying due to lack of A/C. We just don't have things like that here because we can afford these items.

Of course all is not perfect in the US by far, but there's an old saying:

The US is a great place to be rich, and a horrible place to be poor. Europe is a horrible place to be rich, and a great place to be poor.

Europe is a horrible place to be rich? I have a number of wealthy friends who live in London and certainly have no plans to leave. There’s a point at which more money does not make you happier. Do my friends in their 3 and 4 bedroom houses in London wish they had a six bedroom six bathroom house in Bethesda? Certainly not. They’re not the ones worrying about paying their electricity or gas bills either. They can afford private health insurance so don’t have to rely on the NHS if they don’t want to. The rich always have options which includes prioritising lifestyle over material accoutrements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

So all of Europe has free daycare? From 12 weeks on? And does it go until 6pm? (This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer)

Many states do have free Pre-K. Some even have free Pre-K 3 and Pre-K 4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The poorest state in the US (Mississippi) was the only state poorer than the richest country in Europe (Germany) as of a year ago. Maybe it has now surpassed, so that even old Mississippi is richer than the richest country in Europe:
https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/01/03/the-poorest-us-state-rivals-germany-gdp-per-capita-in-the-us-and-europe

The standard of living is high in the US. When a heat wave hits Paris, you hear of scores of people dying due to lack of A/C. We just don't have things like that here because we can afford these items.

Of course all is not perfect in the US by far, but there's an old saying:

The US is a great place to be rich, and a horrible place to be poor. Europe is a horrible place to be rich, and a great place to be poor.

um. TX says, hello.

https://texasstandard.org/stories/texas-freeze-winter-storm-2021-death-count/

Texas has an official death count from the 2021 blackout. The true toll may never be known.

Researchers say the state’s death toll – 246 people – is a severe undercount.

The only reason our qol here is better than most of Europe is because our country is physically bigger, so you have more space.

Europe is more egalitarian in terms of qol. The US has a huge gap.

I do agree, that this country is great if you make a lot of money, but not so great if you are middle/lower class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

So all of Europe has free daycare? From 12 weeks on? And does it go until 6pm? (This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer)

Many states do have free Pre-K. Some even have free Pre-K 3 and Pre-K 4.

NP-The French school week is super annoying for working parents, with Wednesdays off and also so many breaks. My sil (not wealthy at all) had a lady who took care of my nephew that day and picked him up at school (which also ends before work ends). It's not like everything is perfect. And yes, the US does have free Pre-K. It was great for both my kids. And before that there was a very low cost little 2s program offered by my city every am between 8 and 12. We definitely need more of these programs so everyone can benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The poorest state in the US (Mississippi) was the only state poorer than the richest country in Europe (Germany) as of a year ago. Maybe it has now surpassed, so that even old Mississippi is richer than the richest country in Europe:
https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/01/03/the-poorest-us-state-rivals-germany-gdp-per-capita-in-the-us-and-europe

The standard of living is high in the US. When a heat wave hits Paris, you hear of scores of people dying due to lack of A/C. We just don't have things like that here because we can afford these items.

Of course all is not perfect in the US by far, but there's an old saying:

The US is a great place to be rich, and a horrible place to be poor. Europe is a horrible place to be rich, and a great place to be poor.

um. TX says, hello.

https://texasstandard.org/stories/texas-freeze-winter-storm-2021-death-count/

Texas has an official death count from the 2021 blackout. The true toll may never be known.

Researchers say the state’s death toll – 246 people – is a severe undercount.

The only reason our qol here is better than most of Europe is because our country is physically bigger, so you have more space.

Europe is more egalitarian in terms of qol. The US has a huge gap.

I do agree, that this country is great if you make a lot of money, but not so great if you are middle/lower class.

+1 Blaming the Parisian heatwave deaths on lack of ability to buy an AC is like saying that the Hurricane Katrina deaths primarily occured because people who stayed couldn't afford a bus ticket out. There are a whole lot of factors that come into play in these extreme weather events that you can't necessarily buy your way out of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

+1 If you think your kids aren't getting educated at their daycare, you're doing it wrong.

But in comparison for childcare:

Germany: Strong, heavily subsidized system, often free or low-cost depending on the state.
France: Mandatory free public preschool starts at age 3.
Denmark: Heavily subsidized care for children up to age 10, with capped fees.
Ireland: Offers a universal free early childhood care and education programme.
UK-England: Working parents may be eligible for 30 hours of funded childcare support for 3-4 year olds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/upshot/child-care-biden.html
How Other Nations Pay for Child Care. The U.S. Is an Outlier.
Rich countries contribute an average of $14,000 per year for a toddler’s care, compared with $500 in the U.S.

[Anonymous]

The U.S. invents.
China builds.
Europe regulates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The U.S. invents.
China builds.
Europe regulates.

That may have been true in the past, but much more scientific research has moved to Asia these days--lower cost of highly qualified human capital and governments that are supporting research with grant funding (unlike the USA which opted to cut funding for NSF and NIH in favor of an Iran war that costs billions per week.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much misinformation and half truths.
These nations beat the US in almost every measure - infant mortality, violent crimes, percent of population in prison, wage gap, health care access… but yes, let’s obsess about taxation rate.

Except they're poor and the US is rich.

1% of the U.S. is rich.

Most Americans barely break even.